510 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Jomacdo, on 08 July 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

So this change brings poptarting more in line with the other playstyles(Something PGI says they weren't trying to do) while leaving the jump capable mechs that spend 1/50th(or less) of their tonnage in their position of clear superiority over their max jumpjet counterparts.

Bringing poptarting more in line with other playstiles is exactly what PGI has said they were trying to do! Many times, the most recent in the original post of this thread! Whenever they say "we're not trying to 'fix' the poptart meta," they're referring to the loud faction of people who view "fixed" as "removed." These are obviously two different words with different meanings - and neither PGI nor the whiners thoughtful and articulate critics of jump sniping should abuse language in that way.

However, it apparently needs saying again, again, again, again, that what PGI is saying here - and elsewhere, over and over - is that they are attempting to balance jump sniping, not remove it.

[Jomacdo]

Heffay, on 08 July 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

That ton (or 1/2 ton, or 3 tons, depending on JJ type) you spend on a jump jet now affects your heat, reducing your DPS, and creates a risk of significant leg damage if used improperly.

They are becoming more of a skill based item. Sure they can provide situational advantages, but there may be other situations where all they do is reduce your DPS.

So basically if I use jumpjets for mobility like they're intended the extra height isn't worth the extra heat, tonnage, increased risk of leg damage and the greater impact on DPS

While both options will perform slightly worse now, 1JJ will still be better than max JJ in 99 out of 100 situations.

Why are we here again?

[Goose]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Jumpjets give you 1 heat per jumpjet (with a MINIMUM of 3 heat) and 30 meters of horizontal movement, 2 levels (6 meters per height "level") per jumpjet.

This means you get 30 meters of movement, 12 meters of height per jumpjet in tabletop.

This is also over the span of 10 seconds, second you cannot while or run in the same turn it is natural to believe that it consumes the entire 10 seconds to get you (with 7 jumpjets) 210 meters of horizontal movement with 84/2 (42) meters (as there is descent as well if you plan on landing on a level surface) of total potential height for 7 heat.

Wat.

It's one elevation climbed per jump jet, so that it takes three to get up to or over 18m, up to a range of 90m. You can, point in fact, have this 18m ridge right next to you and expect to climb over it, then sail across the rest of the 90 …

Conversely, you can descend any number of elevations, damage-free, with only one jump jet.

Jump jet heat might have a better look'n feel if it's mechanic was inverse to the flamers behavior …

There is an underlining issue with jump jet use: The BattleAxe in TRO:'75 strongly implies untrained jump jet use will get you killed directly; MW:O only sort'a talks about how "skilled" we are with its' "skill trees" …

[Void Angel]

Sandpit, on 08 July 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

again, just because you find something in teh game difficult to counter doesn't make it "op" or a validate a reason to remove or "fix" it.

Avoid straw men in argument - they reduce your credibility. The absolute dominance of poptart tactics have been demonstrated over and over and over. It's not an extraordinary claim - and re-writing whatsisname's position to be "well, you find it hard to counter, so you're crying 'OP' over it," isn't a valid thought.

Jomacdo, on 08 July 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

So basically if I use jumpjets for mobility like they're intended the extra height isn't worth the extra heat, tonnage, increased risk of leg damage and the greater impact on DPS

While both options will perform slightly worse now, 1JJ will still be better than max JJ in 99 out of 100 situations.

Why are we here again?

Mobility includes getting over terrain, not just snap turning. You're also forgetting that jump jets prevent fall damage as well as being able to cause it - basically, in any situation under this change, more jets will give you more mobility.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 July 2014 - 02:01 PM.

[Heffay]

Malorish, on 08 July 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Don't you realize that Pop-tarting is the problem? As long as it remains a way to unload a high damage alpha in a way that minimizes return fire, it's going to continue to dominate the game.

It's almost as if there was another solution in your very comment... A way to eliminate that problem while still making pop tarting a viable (and yet not overpowered) game style...

[Koniving]

Goose, on 08 July 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Wat.

It's one elevation climbed per jump jet, so that it takes three to get up to or over 18m, up to a range of 90m. You can, point in fact, have this 18m ridge right next to you and expect to climb over it, then sail across the rest of the 90 …

Conversely, you can descend any number of elevations, damage-free, with only one jump jet.

Jump jet heat might have a better look'n feel if it's mechanic was inverse to the flamers behavior …

There is an underlining issue with jump jet use: The BattleAxe in TRO:'75 strongly implies untrained jump jet use will get you killed directly; MW:O only sort'a talks about how "skilled" we are with its' "skill trees" …

I agree with the simplicity of MWO's jumpjet flight being too simple/easy, but how would you throw in a balance mechanic and the possibility of losing balance during flight?

Now, I'm in megamek, 3050 is the era, Griffin 3M. I can climb 18 meters with one movement (so I get more jump height than I thought with the initial test). That's 3 levels. Assuming a level is 6 meters as I recall if I recall correctly, that's 18 meters. But now... (Does this as I write it in megamek), a horizontal jump of 30 meters but a vertical jump of 24 meters requires two points of jumpjet movement (or 2 JJs).

[MechB Kotare]

Lostdragon, on 08 July 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

My feedback:

1. Scrap your current JJ system and any changes you are considering implementing.
2. Go play MW:LL, shamelessly copy how JJ worked in it
3. ??????
4. Profit

This. So this. SO *****N' THIS!

[MoonUnitBeta]

Pff. These jumpjet tweaks are futile when compared to my.... mightymouse

[Koniving]

Now on another totally random note: What about simply enhancing the jumpjet lift power (with an accelerating rate, takes time to accelerate to max lifting power of the jumpjets with that acceleration being faster with more jumpjets) while completely removing the initial 'boost'?

No initial boost or sudden jump. Instead, lift off from the ground and accelerate upward (because right this second you get an instant 6 M/S boost and with 1 JJ you get 1 M/S per second... What if it starts from 0...and with each JJ you get faster acceleration which means faster lift which means more height and sooner before you run out, nearly requiring multiple JJs for more than hopping over pebbles).

Because in the initial thrust (just hit space bar) right this second, bam you're up in the air by 8+ meters in a Highlander due to the jumping animation and that's using ZERO thrust at all, I just tapped the button with a single JJ.

Removing the initial boost altogether / sudden jump animation would leave us with actually taking off.

Edited by Koniving, 08 July 2014 - 02:19 PM.

[Void Angel]

Goose, on 08 July 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

There is an underlining issue with jump jet use: The BattleAxe in TRO:'75 strongly implies untrained jump jet use will get you killed directly; MW:O only sort'a talks about how "skilled" we are with its' "skill trees" …

I don't have many of the technical readouts - so I'll take your word about the implication - but this simply underscores one of several reasons why the old Tabletop flavor text cannot be used to show how this game "should" be designed. The actual BT rules (and Mechwarrior rules, for that matter) all assume that jump jet use is part of every MechWarrior's Piloting skill. There is no tabletop Jump Jet skill, and although certain conditions encountered while jumping do make you roll against your Piloting skill, all Mechwarriors know how to use jump jets. In point of fact, MWO's skill trees, while certainly rudimentary, are at least as complex as Tabletop's binary skill system.

In any case, the fact that the BattleAxe's Technical Readout entry directly contradicts the actual rules of the game means that none of the flavor text can be taken as Gospel - even if the tabletop rules were valid for this game.

Edited by Void Angel, 08 July 2014 - 02:20 PM.

[Mr Ikea]

Well I, for one, am excited about the focus on Jump Jets.

Tweaking the mechanics first and then fixing the modelling, right?

I mean, it's just silly to see leg jets when you installed them in the torso slots...

[East Indy]

Paul, question about your example.

You state "this single jump jet causes . . . 3% heat." That's 3% heat per jet.

Then you state "adding 4 more jump jets [causes] about 10% heat." That's 2% heat per jet.

But in your addendum, you state heat per jet is linear.

By "about 10," do you mean 15? Or am I missing something?

Edit: Okay, it looks like base to which linear increments are added, not base that's multiplied as per the June 6 CC post.

Edited by East Indy, 08 July 2014 - 02:58 PM.

[StandingInFire]

HUBA, on 08 July 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

This is only about JJ and how the (should) work.

• As already mentioned hill climbing with th space spamming have to go. I would suggest a 3 Second cool of after last use (even in air)
  
• The initial boost should be less effective but further boost need an increase - 50% increasing to 100% boost in the first second. (continues boost will be more effective then more little boosts)
  
• More JJ need to be more effective optimal would be 2JJ are twice as effective then 1JJ. Here you can use the number of JJ for the total jump time. As an idea 1 + 1 second for every tonne JJ. A Spider with 12JJ and an assault with 3JJ would have 7 seconds boost time.
  
• More JJ less heat, because the heat will generate at different spots and can be distributed easier. Also should be considered, that the boost time is longer so that even if 2JJ have less heat/s it make in total more over the complete boost time.
  
• The boost it self should depend on the no. of JJ. More JJ gives a better boost so that light mechs can have also a fast vertical speed. It have to be balanced with the longer boost time. The spider with 12JJ have much more agility then the heavy brother with 3JJ
  
• Horizontal speed should be changeable. Simply by pressing W or S you can in- or decrease the horizontal speed even a jump strait up and then move forward to land on a building should be possible.
  
• Damage on landing also should be increased. Everyone who uses JJ have to learn to keep some fuel for the landing otherwise bad things can happen.

Pretty much this, except I don't think a cool down is not needed just have thrust scale with how long the spacebar is held down so just pressing it for 0.1 s doesn't provide much thrust at all but holding it for a few seconds provides a lot of thrust.

[charov]

Finally! Tnx Paul, can't wait to see it!

[Geck0]

Haven't played the game in almost 6 months but I still keep updated with friends friend that still plays. Saw this from his link.

This " we are not trying to remove pop-tarting from MWO. It is a valid, tactical means of play."

Pretty much killed all hope of me coming back. I thought maybe that PGI was too incompetent to fix the situation by means of death by band-aid. But it turns out they don't see it as something that needs to be fixed. It saddens me but I'm a firm believer in voting with my wallet.

[Goose]

Void Angel, on 08 July 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

I don't have many of the technical readouts - so I'll take your word about the implication - but this simply underscores one of several reasons why the old Tabletop flavor text cannot be used to show how this game "should" be designed. The actual BT rules (and Mechwarrior rules, for that matter) all assume that jump jet use is part of every MechWarrior's Piloting skill. There is no tabletop Jump Jet skill, and although certain conditions encountered while jumping do make you roll against your Piloting skill, all Mechwarriors know how to use jump jets. In point of fact, MWO's skill trees, while certainly rudimentary, are at least as complex as Tabletop's binary skill system.

In any case, the fact that the BattleAxe's Technical Readout entry directly contradicts the actual rules of the game means that none of the flavor text can be taken as Gospel - even if the tabletop rules were valid for this game.

After a better search, we have Additional Game Rules, p.16 of XTRO: Primitives II, which talks of Prototype Jump Jets being a +3 PSR to land without falling down.

I'd durther it have been blamed on a training issue, but The Devs have shown a penchant for insightful and creative interpretations when translating back and forth between TT and Sim.

(Everyone forgets Solaris Box Set was written to follow up MW2. )

[Sandpit]

Void Angel, on 08 July 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Avoid straw men in argument - they reduce your credibility. The absolute dominance of poptart tactics have been demonstrated over and over and over. It's not an extraordinary claim - and re-writing whatsisname's position to be "well, you find it hard to counter, so you're crying 'OP' over it," isn't a valid thought.


Mobility includes getting over terrain, not just snap turning. You're also forgetting that jump jets prevent fall damage as well as being able to cause it - basically, in any situation under this change, more jets will give you more mobility.

except for those that don't get dominated by the tactic?

I'm not the one making blanket statements for the entire player population.

Asking to remove poptarts is no different than this list
http://mwomercs.com/...-here-is-wrong/

just because you don't like something, think it's too hard to overcome, and/or too common, doesn't mean it should be removed.

That's what I'm pointing out. There's no strawman. There's a simple statement that any statement regarding the entire community's inability to overcome a tactic is a strawman in and of itself.

[Reno Blade]

From what I understood it will look like this, right?
- 1 JJet is just enough to fart smoke now to get over pebles
- full jjets will give you "normal" agility and height, but lowers/stops your cooling.
- higher engines AND more JJets will be more effective than smaller engine AND/OR less JJets.

This reads very promising. No high heat from jumping around like it sounds from so many of the posters here.
How mobile we will be will party be our own choice (numbers and engine) but overall be a bit less.

Even with not intending to nerf poptarts, it seems that we will need to re-evaluate how many JJ, engine and DHS needs to be added to make it work.
If that means you need 2-3 more tons, it could be enough for most builds to limit ammo, heatsinks or even the weapons itself.

A "meta timberwolf" with 1JJ, 3t ammo and the internal 5 DHS (XL375) has enough space/tonnage for 1-2 more DHS.
It could be that it's no longer working with 1JJ and needs 2 or 3JJets which could only be added if you reduce ammo or DHS (as you can't strip off much enough armor, or lower the engine).

If the Timber Wolf will be better with less than 5 JJ than the Summoner (stuck with 5JJ) could be because of the higher engine.

It would also mean the same for Victors and Phracts, which already run XL engines, and only 3-4t ammo (2PPC/2AC5).

Overall, I'm looking forward to this change very much.
It's not a pure poptart nerf, but it makes all the JJet builds a risk/reward consideration that needs to be done without the "obvious" 1-2JJ is enough mentality.
More weapons = less mobility, more mobility = less weapons.
Now works with engines AND JJets.

[NeonKnight]

would be nice to see the following chart with the Vertical Axis (meters) with an actual scale:

[ManDaisy]

Based on the height adjustments I predict the max damage a D.F.A. will be able to do will be that of a IS small laser.

Edited by ManDaisy, 08 July 2014 - 03:55 PM.