510 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

ReXspec, on 10 July 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

With lasers no. But with front-end damage, insta-shot weapons? Yes. It's still low-risk.

I am agreeing with you on that.

But it also shows that the act of jumping and shooting can be quite balanced. It's the weapon mechanics.

Homeless Bill has a proposal specifically to deal with the weapon mechanics.

Unfortunately I don't think PGI will ever try it.

[ReXspec]

YueFei, on 10 July 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

I am agreeing with you on that.

But it also shows that the act of jumping and shooting can be quite balanced. It's the weapon mechanics.

Homeless Bill has a proposal specifically to deal with the weapon mechanics.

Unfortunately I don't think PGI will ever try it.

The problem is pinpoint damage. I actually have a thread on proposals to dealing with pin-point damage (and weapons convergence--which are the same [scrap]ing thing) in my sig. Even if P.G.I. won't listen to those proposals, that thread is worth checking out.

Edited by ReXspec, 10 July 2014 - 11:12 PM.

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

Making mechs feel heavy is a strange point. Most of them do not look big or heavy and do look more like exoskeleton in a toy environment. You never feel yourself 10 meters high in the cockpit of a big machine! Personally I feel more like in a car, slightly above the ground. Proportions of the environment are incosistent and rarely provide a feeling of scale. That's what you start with when you want to make mechs feel right.

And as for Jump Jets, somehow even 5 JJs feel like 1 JJ in TT. You can't go anywhere with them. Be the jump a quick thing, it might be useful, but it's actually a long cumbersome floating above the ground, it's easier to shoot a jumper than a walking mech! Repositioning yourself with JJs is truly awkward and unpleasant, that doesn't feel right.
JJs should give you a JUMP, fast take-off, maybe angled. You don't want to make it high, ok, but make it long and fast at least, and it would make sense to save some fuel for landing! Now you use full thrust to climb a hill slightly higher than your mech and fail, falling and damaging legs! That's a truly facepalming experience.

The heat to JJs should have been there from the very start. Adding it now is good, but the problem is not here. The whole JUMPING system is totally inadequate, having JJs is not an advantage at all, while it should be..

Edited by Duncan Jr Fischer, 11 July 2014 - 02:28 AM.

[RolloI]

unlocked the jj-legged on the summoner........
....poor mech useless ..

[Tombstoner]

The strength of one JJ is way too strong. JJ strength should be cumulative but your giving the first JJ way too muchheight and too little heat. I presume this is because you want to let people pop tart and save on tonnage for weapons. this is a mistake. if people want to spec into pop tarting they need to invest the tonnage from armor, weapons, speed, Heat sinks. Pop tarting should be a premium, As it is for 2 tones your good to go on any mech and that is excessive in my opinion.

[AdamBaines]

FupDup, on 08 July 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Wait, why are all mechs getting reduced lift? Including the ones that use the maximum number of jets they can carry? My Thors and Novas, using all 5 of their hardwired jets, already felt like goodyear blimps that struggled to jump up even the most modestly sized hills.

I think that seems to be the purpose, right? That is more inline with the spirit of TT and Lore from books and etc. The only truly agile mechs that have jump jet are the lights.

[Cimarb]

AdamBaines, on 11 July 2014 - 05:51 AM, said:

I think that seems to be the purpose, right? That is more inline with the spirit of TT and Lore from books and etc. The only truly agile mechs that have jump jet are the lights.

That is quite an oversimplification, though. The Trebuchet is dramatically more agile than the Highlander, for instance, and the Spider is far more agile than both. TT never got into how "agile" mechs were - we just try to make more out of movement rules than we should. Generally, though, more mechs used JJs for maneuverability than anything else, so the majority of JJ-capable mechs would be "more agile" than not. The Highlander, on the other hand, was specifically designed for the Death From Above tactic, and therefore is heavily reinforced in the leg area and should be less maneuverable than the Victor, for instance, which was not designed that way. Quirks could easily reinforce both of those styles, with a +thrust/-armor for the Victor and a +armor/-thrust for the Highlander.

[AdamBaines]

Cimarb, on 11 July 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

That is quite an oversimplification, though. The Trebuchet is dramatically more agile than the Highlander, for instance, and the Spider is far more agile than both. TT never got into how "agile" mechs were - we just try to make more out of movement rules than we should. Generally, though, more mechs used JJs for maneuverability than anything else, so the majority of JJ-capable mechs would be "more agile" than not. The Highlander, on the other hand, was specifically designed for the Death From Above tactic, and therefore is heavily reinforced in the leg area and should be less maneuverable than the Victor, for instance, which was not designed that way. Quirks could easily reinforce both of those styles, with a +thrust/-armor for the Victor and a +armor/-thrust for the Highlander.

I wont disagree with what you have said. People who expect mechs to be these super agile jumping machines, at any weight class, I believe are expecting too much. Again these are all opinions on how individuals want thing to work based on interpretations of basic TT movment rules and how Lore, I.E. novels and source material, described how they moved when jumping (which can even vary between authors). We will have to see how PGIs interpretation of all of these effect game play.

[Void Angel]

Tombstoner, on 11 July 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

The strength of one JJ is way too strong. JJ strength should be cumulative but your giving the first JJ way too muchheight and too little heat. I presume this is because you want to let people pop tart and save on tonnage for weapons. this is a mistake. if people want to spec into pop tarting they need to invest the tonnage from armor, weapons, speed, Heat sinks. Pop tarting should be a premium, As it is for 2 tones your good to go on any mech and that is excessive in my opinion.

The strength of one jump jet has not been determined - unless you're talking about the current implementation of jump jets?

[Tombstoner]

Void Angel, on 11 July 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

The strength of one jump jet has not been determined - unless you're talking about the current implementation of jump jets?

I expect it will scale depending on size but its the height clearance for all mech that's shown in pauls graph that matters. As you add more JJ you never get the same bang per JJ as you do the first one no mater the mech. Its too much and lets poptarts off way too easy tonnage wise. Pauls function has too much +c.

[Yokomohoyo]

ReXspec, on 10 July 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

A Gauss Rifle explodes because it carries a built-in power generator (that said, with a built-in generator, there should be no charge). If that power generator get's roughed up, it destabilizes and blows up.

I forgot to expand why it shouldn’t blow up and it is because its power generator should be the mechs engine which should also power the jump jets instead of fuel which makes no sense as a power source when you have a powerful fusion reactor creating power.

ReXspec, on 10 July 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

Actually that article was stating that recoil doesn't effect movement... not targeting. Of course pilots can compensate for targeting errors produced by movement and recoil: Because they've been trained to do it through practice. They've adapted to that fine bit of randomness. That does not mean those vehicles are immune to targeting errors (such as crosshair "shake") by outside forces.

It is the backward momentum caused by recoil that makes targeting hard. In theory the backward momentum of the recoil must equal the forward momentum of the projectile being fired but in reality most of the momentum gets lost with the gases escaping. A bullet fired from an M16 rifle has approximately 1763 Joules of kinetic energy as it leaves the muzzle, but the recoil energy of the gun is less than 7 Joules. It takes 1763 Joules to move a 5.56×45mm round that weights 3.5g to 1,000m/s but 7 Joules have very little effect on an M16A2 with a loaded weight of 4kg, however it greatly affects the slide of the M16A2 which is lighter but it would have no effect to the M16A2 if it were physically and permanently attached to a vehicle/robot/turret, etc.

ReXspec, on 10 July 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

The problem is pinpoint damage.

You have finally seen the light! The problem is not jump snipping it is pinpoint damage as I stated before. There is a simple solution to this problem and would make MechWarrior Online feel high tech like it should by using the M1 Abrams targeting technology, which is that you can keep your guns lock on target while moving and hit the target while moving but you cannot target a specific location unless standing still. This will be a buff to everyone except jump snipers but for it to work you need to get rid of the Null Signature System effect and ECM invisibility. All mechs should be able to get weapons lock instantly when a target is not in total cover, in weapon range and within 60 degrees right, left, up and down and the weapons in range should fire and hit random mech locations not in cover with all cluster rounds and missiles hitting mech locations not in cover. This would eliminate the need and use of zoom while moving plus give a much need buff to LBXs and SRMs also there would be no wasted ammo since weapons would only fire at a target in range and not in total cover. SSRM should able to target and hit anything within its range that is not in cover including targets directly behind, below or above the firing mech. Accurate sniping with the proper zoom for the range of the weapons can only be made when the mech is standing still and hitting stealth armored mechs would require the firing mech to be standing still. This would make Inner Sphere’s stealth armored mechs competitive with Clan’s superior fire power but they need to get rid of all the weapon nerfs to Clan weapons. I really hate nerfs, they are the root of all evil.

Edited by Yokomohoyo, 11 July 2014 - 01:47 PM.

[Void Angel]

What you're describing is mostly a first-person version of Mechwarrior:Tactics, but with arbitrary firing restrictions and some weapons ignoring a staple of Battletech games - the firing arc. That's not the kind of game this is, and asking for the game to be remade isn't going to get you very far. Also, your proposition would not in fact make buffed Clan weaponry competetive with the Inner Sphere - and even if it did, the only IS 'Mechs that would be balanced would have to equip Stealth Armor. That's not balanced, and customization is another staple of Battletech games.

In reality, nerfs are a required tool for balancing games. If you only buff things to achieve balance, you get 1) a lot more work required to balance any overperforming system, since all other systems must be buffed to achieve parity 2) a resulting inflationary cycle of more and more powerful weapon and supplementary systems, until you'd finally just have to re-set the numbers across the board to keep processing requirements manageable. Alternately, if you notice that the (ER)PPC is the all-range god-king of the battlefield, substantially outclassing all other weapon systems, you can nerf its heat efficiency - a simple and practical solution.

[Void Angel]

Tombstoner, on 11 July 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

I expect it will scale depending on size but its the height clearance for all mech that's shown in pauls graph that matters. As you add more JJ you never get the same bang per JJ as you do the first one no mater the mech. Its too much and lets poptarts off way too easy tonnage wise. Pauls function has too much +c.

Well, you know the graph isn't accurate; they've said it's just for demonstration purposes, so you cannot reliably draw the conclusions you're drawing from it. Even if your assumption that the graph accurately depicts the proportion of marginal jump jet thrust, however, you still don't know how much height you're looking at - for each class of jump jet and a given engine rating - plus the burn duration is still the same. This is an important detail. If a Victor were to end up having to spend its entire stock of reaction mass just to reach firing height over most buildings, I doubt the hordes of (rightfully) incensed players would agree with you that they'd been "let off easy," or that they had too much height.

Particularly given that fall damage now requires 'Mechs to reserve reaction mass for landing, this system can easily nerf jump sniping down to parity with other tactics, which is all we should be asking of the change.

Edited by Void Angel, 11 July 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

[Chimerahawk]

So poptarting, which was essentially an exploit of the JJ system, is now valid?

Looks to me like you guys are nerfing jump brawlers far more than poptarts. meaning of course, the only JJs will be used for is 1 or 2 for maneuverability or 1-4 for poptarting.

So nothing has changed, except jump brawling sucks now?

[Verkhne]

So no helpful to the Summoners and Novas, cant think of any mechs that will be affected more negatively. That leaves 5 out of 8 Clan Mechs worthwhile now...

[Void Angel]

Void Angel, on 11 July 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

you still don't know how much height you're looking at - for each class of jump jet and a given engine rating - plus the burn duration is still the same. This is an important detail.

Particularly given that fall damage now requires 'Mechs to reserve reaction mass for landing, this system can easily nerf jump sniping down to parity with other tactics, which is all we should be asking of the change.

Using jump jets to snap turn and spread damage should remain quite doable - although with a slightly increased heat. If you're doing more than that - such as lifting your damaged 'mech beyond your target's torso pitch and hanging there for ten seconds while your teammates save you or your guns recycle and cool - then yes, this change will impact you more. Since that kind of delaying tactic is quite valuable, I don't really see that more heat is unwarranted. And, just to cover all bases, everything else is still poptarting - whether it's at 100m or 1000m, the advantages are still much the same.

[YueFei]

Void Angel, on 11 July 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Particularly given that fall damage now requires 'Mechs to reserve reaction mass for landing, this system can easily nerf jump sniping down to parity with other tactics, which is all we should be asking of the change.

I don't think any JJ nerf will effectively nerf Jump Sniping, unless the JJ nerf is extremely severe and crippling to JJs. Because Jump Snipers only need to jump about waist-height. On a mech that's 16 meters tall, you only need to jump 8 meters.

If JJs are nerfed so that you can't even jump waist-height, then JJs will be extremely gimped. You wouldn't even be able to perform a DFA against an opponent on the same elevation.

I've given an example of jump shooting where it's not overpowered... that is, jump shooting with lasers. In fact, jump shooting with lasers is probably *worse* than just doing a berm-drill laser shot, because of the necessity of jumping significantly higher in order to have time to squeeze off the 1 second laser burn during the free fall (when reticule is stable).

If anything I'd rather see the weapon mechanics of PP FLD loadouts addressed directly, ala Homeless Bill's proposed system.

[MountainCopper]

Sky Hawk, on 08 July 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

PS. What has here 12 JJ?

The only Mech which actually can mount 12 JJ: SDR-5V

[Vincent Lynch]

Quote: "Table Top (TT) rules add 3 heat instantaneously upon using any number of Jump Jets."

WRONG. That rule existed in 90's TT but was scrapped years (perhaps a decade) ago.
Current TT rule is 1 heat point per hex of distance covered.
This means, jump jet heat increases linearly with NO "base value".
Should be the same way in MWO: A full burn with 3 JJs should produce the same heat as a "half burn" jump with 6 JJs.
And a full jump with 6 JJs should produce exactly twice as much heat as a full jump with 3 JJs.
I repeat: NO base value.
Please PGI don't make a "canon" rule that has been invalid in canon for about 10 years now!