147 replies to this topic

[sabujo]

The price is quite reasonable, considering we don't have to waste C-bills on a special engine (which is always obligatory in IS mechs) and in DHS and other upgrades.

[Vassago Rain]

sabujo, on 09 July 2014 - 02:14 AM, said:

The price is quite reasonable, considering we don't have to waste C-bills on a special engine (which is always obligatory in IS mechs) and in DHS and other upgrades.

You're not gonna be saying this when you have to purchase 3 18 million madcats.

With IS gundams, if you've bought one, then you usually have good parts, guns, and engines already, so you won't be spending tons to grind out The Mech of The Month.

Clans? Can't re-use engines, and still need to buy omnipods.

[Karl Streiger]

Vassago Rain, on 09 July 2014 - 02:21 AM, said:

Clans? Can't re-use engines, and still need to buy omnipods.

Exactly 8 OmniPods while the CT is never changeable - and for most Mechs it doesn't make sense to change legs (but for the KitFox) and Heads (but for the StormCrow) -

[sabujo]

Vassago Rain, on 09 July 2014 - 02:21 AM, said:

You're not gonna be saying this when you have to purchase 3 18 million madcats.

With IS gundams, if you've bought one, then you usually have good parts, guns, and engines already, so you won't be spending tons to grind out The Mech of The Month.

Clans? Can't re-use engines, and still need to buy omnipods.

That seems true as the mech becomes heavier (due to the fact that upgrade costs do not scale) and if you consider engine swapping (that everyone does) for long run cost mitigation. But the thing is, and that's the important part, the clan mech as a whole (taking engine into the equation) isn't a lot more expensive than an equivalent IS mech.

But that's part of the whole grinding process of a F2P game.

[Kmieciu]

Modo44, on 09 July 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

The Kit Fox is pretty bad, so there is little issue there. A cheap TW will pretty much wipe other heavies out of existence.

A Timber Wolf certainly won't be cheap because of the XL375 engine cost (6'125'000 C-Bills). And you will have to buy 3 of them in order to get elite pilot skills. And no engine swapping like in IS. On the plus side, when you sell it you don't loose C-bill you would have spent on endo, ferro and DHS upgrades ($2.5 million for a 75-tonner). So you can buy three of them, grind them through basics, leave one you like best and sell 2 you don't want.

In the end you will have a mastered chassis with the hardpoints of 3 mechs for a price of 2 mechs that only takes 1 mechbay :-)

And if you don't care about elite skills, you can have only one mech with (almost) all the hardpoints you would want. I think the clan pricing is more than fair.

Edited by Kmieciu, 09 July 2014 - 02:58 AM.

[Modo44]

And in 3 Orions, you buy millions of Cbills worth of scrap. Fair as ****.

[Widowmaker1981]

Kmieciu, on 09 July 2014 - 02:55 AM, said:

A Timber Wolf certainly won't be cheap because of the XL375 engine cost (6'125'000 C-Bills). And you will have to buy 3 of them in order to get elite pilot skills. And no engine swapping like in IS. On the plus side, when you sell it you don't loose C-bill you would have spent on endo, ferro and DHS upgrades ($2.5 million for a 75-tonner). So you can buy three of them, grind them through basics, leave one you like best and sell 2 you don't want.

In the end you will have a mastered chassis with the hardpoints of 3 mechs for a price of 2 mechs that only takes 1 mechbay :-)

And if you don't care about elite skills, you can have only one mech with (almost) all the hardpoints you would want. I think the clan pricing is more than fair.

if you dont care about elite skills (and doubled basics) you are playing with one hand tied behind your back.


to the point that i just bought 3000 MC to elite the 3 direwhales with GXP, because playing them without elites/doubled basics is like trying to drive that ship on forest colony

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 09 July 2014 - 03:14 AM.

[Koniving]

Updated this post.

"Edit 7/9/2014.
Looking at the listed Clan XL 180 engine price, Clan XL engines are exactly as expensive as IS XL engines.
That said... We know the Dire Wolf's engine will be 4,900,000 c-bills.
This easily puts the Dire Wolf between 12,000,000 and 15,000,000 cbills in a rough estimate when considering all parts.

When I previously rough estimated for a Dire Wolf's price, I gathered about late 13 mil to 14,400,000 cbills give or take up to 90,000. So we're still in the same ballpark."

[Kmieciu]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 July 2014 - 03:08 AM, said:

if you dont care about elite skills (and doubled basics) you are playing with one hand tied behind your back.

"one hand tied behind your back" would mean 50% less effectiveness while in mwo it's about 10-25%.
Certainly it matters in tournaments and private duels but it does not make a huge difference while pugging. Ask yourself, out of all the PUG matches you've lost, how many would you win if your mech was 10% faster and could turn 10% quicker?

[Remarius]

Koniving, on 08 July 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

On even some of the more minor refits. According to the thingy here, I've spent over 22 million cbills since the 17th and I haven't even kitted out 1/4th of my Clan mechs yet.

June the 17th^

Yes but hang on if you got the full 24 that means you only spent 3.66m on average per mech (x6)... and presumably you were then earning c-bills as you then levelled them to counter that.

I started with the packs and had scrimped and saved to get together 70,556,100 as I was also equipping/levelling new mechs as I went which took a lot of c-bills (yes I was sad enough to note it down). I've equipped up and levelled just 9 lights and mediums now (nova/adder mastered, kitfox almost elited) and am at 100,391,765. That's almost 30m gained over my expenses!

PS: Most of mine cost about 2.2-2.5 to refit but I did change a couple a bit as I went along.

PPS: Should have added a reminder of course that I use premium so the gain would have been "just" 20m over expenses for people without.....

Edited by Remarius, 09 July 2014 - 03:30 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Kmieciu, on 09 July 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

"one hand tied behind your back" would mean 50% less effectiveness while in mwo it's about 10-25%.
Certainly it matters in tournaments and private duels but it does not make a huge difference while pugging. Ask yourself, out of all the PUG matches you've lost, how many would you win if your mech was 10% faster and could turn 10% quicker?

and could twist 10% faster, and had 7.5% more heat dissipation, and accelerates/decelerates 22.5% faster.. and etc. Yes, it makes a ridiculous difference. maybe not 50%, true, but, especially with slow things like highlanders, atlases, banshees and diretankers it very much makes a difference to winning and losing, and more importantly (for me) a much bigger one to my score.

yeah id rather get 1000 damage and 4 killls and lose than get 300 dmg, no kills and win (i dont play lights, if i wanted to play unreal tournament, id play unreal tournament)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 09 July 2014 - 03:49 AM.

[Remarius]

Kmieciu, on 09 July 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

"one hand tied behind your back" would mean 50% less effectiveness while in mwo it's about 10-25%.
Certainly it matters in tournaments and private duels but it does not make a huge difference while pugging. Ask yourself, out of all the PUG matches you've lost, how many would you win if your mech was 10% faster and could turn 10% quicker?

Hopefully I never have you on my side as it makes a massive difference in survivability and deadliness - better DPS due to the heat and far more ability to maneuver around your opponents with the doubles bonuses. Speed tweak alone is worth leveling your mechs for.

[Vehemens]

I'm not exactly certain why users should get economically penalized for a locked engine on a light mech when the only effective competition level speed for a light mech is a full 50% faster than what the current clan lights are locked in for.

Certainly I understand the need to balance it for all players involved, and clan tech should be better/more expensive. But from a gameplay balance standpoint it pretty much means that in competitions with tonnage limits, clan lights are just kill fodder.

[Too Much Love]

The main thing here - clan engines and IS engines cost the same.

Ergo the price of IS and clan mechs will be the same. The funny part is that clan mechs price doesn't include ferro and endo updates, so technically they are even cheaper.

So Timber Wolf price will be around 10-12 mln.cbills.

It wont be easy to master it (have to buy all 3) but essentially cheaper than in lore version.

Edited by drunkblackstar, 09 July 2014 - 03:35 AM.

[Remarius]

Vehemens, on 09 July 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

I'm not exactly certain why users should get economically penalized for a locked engine on a light mech when the only effective competition level speed for a light mech is a full 50% faster than what the current clan lights are locked in for.

Certainly I understand the need to balance it for all players involved, and clan tech should be better/more expensive. But from a gameplay balance standpoint it pretty much means that in competitions with tonnage limits, clan lights are just kill fodder.

Right...

Strange you mention that as I notice Lords running with triple Kitfox in their 12 man now.

But I guess they're not "competitive".

[Kmieciu]

drunkblackstar, on 09 July 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

The main thing here - clan engines and IS engines cost the same.

Ergo the price of IS and clan mechs will be the same. The funny part is that clan mechs price doesn't include ferro and endo updates, so technically they are even cheaper.

So Timber Wolf price will be around 10-12 mln.cbills.

It wont be easy to master it (have to buy all 3) but essentially cheaper than in lore version.

Yeah, but you forget about the default omnipods: 8x374,236 = 2'993'888

Remarius, on 09 July 2014 - 03:28 AM, said:

Hopefully I never have you on my side as it makes a massive difference in survivability and deadliness - better DPS due to the heat and far more ability to maneuver around your opponents with the doubles bonuses. Speed tweak alone is worth leveling your mechs for.

You wish you had me on your side :-) I own 55 IS mechs and mastered at least one of every chassis.
7.5% more DPS is nice but overheat even once and the other guy with 7.5% less dps who did not overheat will do more damage than you.
5 kph more in an Atlas is a big improvement, but if you make a mistake, or if your team abandons you will die just as fast.

Not to mention I would prefer to pilot a basic Timber Wolf than a mastered Orion or a basic Nova over a mastered Hunchback.

Edited by Kmieciu, 09 July 2014 - 04:01 AM.

[Too Much Love]

Kmieciu, on 09 July 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

[size=4]

Yeah, but you forget about the default omnipods: 8x374,236 = 2'993'888

Even so, it's no where near 24,233,124 C-bills posted on Sarna as TBS price.

[Koniving]

Remarius, on 09 July 2014 - 03:23 AM, said:

Yes but hang on if you got the full 24 that means you only spent 3.66m on average per mech (x6)... and presumably you were then earning c-bills as you then levelled them to counter that.

I started with the packs and had scrimped and saved to get together 70,556,100 as I was also equipping/levelling new mechs as I went which took a lot of c-bills (yes I was sad enough to note it down). I've equipped up and levelled just 9 lights and mediums now (nova/adder mastered, kitfox almost elited) and am at 100,391,765. That's almost 30m gained over my expenses!

PS: Most of mine cost about 2.2-2.5 to refit but I did change a couple a bit as I went along.

PPS: Should have added a reminder of course that I use premium so the gain would have been "just" 20m over expenses for people without.....

Same here on premium, but I'm frequently space poor and selling things off. I've also got the full Masakari package thanks to someone incredibly awesome, and I've refitted some of the mechs more than 6 different times to try different ideas.

I've customized 1 Timber Wolf, 2 Summoners, 2 Warhawks, 1 Dire Wolf, half of 1 Dire Wolf (it's not ready to deploy yet), 1.7 Adders (the one is still marginally incomplete), 1 Kitfox, 2 Novas, 2 Stormcrows... and that's about it.

There's also a lot of weapon recycling, because I've parted out some of the mechs and frequently reuse similar weapons otherwise my expenses would have been sooooooooo much more.

My "King Crab" Warhawk alone cost me over 4 million just in parts with 2.4 million just being in the twin LBX/AC/20s.

Edited by Koniving, 09 July 2014 - 04:22 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Kmieciu, on 09 July 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

[size=4]

Yeah, but you forget about the default omnipods: 8x374,236 = 2'993'888


You wish you had me on your side :-) I own 55 IS mechs and mastered at least one of every chassis.
7.5% more DPS is nice but overheat even once and the other guy with 7.5% less dps who did not overheat will do more damage than you.
5 kph more in an Atlas is a big improvement, but if you make a mistake, or if your team abandons you will die just as fast.

Not to mention I would prefer to pilot a basic Timber Wolf than a mastered Orion or a basic Nova over a mastered Hunchback.

but you will overheat 7.5% slower, and are less likely to, all other things being equal (not to mention the extra 10% heat cap). and you are less likely to be left behind by your team if you are 10% faster. i get that you realise its better, but its more important than you think. while you obviously have to do it for a bit in order to level, you are gimping your team if you play non mastered mechs.

that said, i agree with the Timberwolf comment.. they do pretty much obsolete every other heavy in the game, other than Jaegermechs and maybe cataphracts (IS ballistics are imo the only reason to play IS mechs anymore, im tempted to sell every IS chassis i own that doesn't have decent ballistic slots.. i wont for now though, in case of nerfs)

TBWs are hilarious. these stats are after immediately after leveling, and 90-95% was done solo, with 0 GXP used (though all leveled pretty LRM heavy, which does help stats, and the win/loss ratios are a bit weird, making the prime look extra awesome)

[Autobot9000]

That even tops the TT (see sarna.net) values. A good way to boost clan pack sales, but an obvious one.