235 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Bazni, on 18 July 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

A 2 person group is still a big fish in a pond of solos. Any group of more than one will yield an advantage due to communication. It's not as big, sure, but it's still there.

really it's not. A 2man group has no more influence than a solo on the game outcome. It's simple mathematics dude. You're really going to tell me and expect me to believe that 2 people on one team are going to cause a roflstomp?
2 people in a maximum of 200 tons is going to create roflstomps?
Seriously dude, come on. If you're unwilling to acknowledge that there's a huge difference in having a 2 man on one or both teams and having a 4+ on one or both teams then you're either trolling, stubbornly refuse to accept that you're wrong, or simply unwilling to accept that math proves a difference?

[Roland]

Honestly, a group of two is significantly more effective than a long mech against lone mechs. Two mechs coordinating fire can take a mech down pretty quick.

Groups are better off playing against other groups.

In my experience, games in both queues have improved since the changes.

[cSand]

Ultimate point here: playing with large groups sucks for everyone except large groups, and I guess some people with some kind of fetish for landslide victories and losses

[Bazni]

Sandpit, on 18 July 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

really it's not. A 2man group has no more influence than a solo on the game outcome. It's simple mathematics dude. You're really going to tell me and expect me to believe that 2 people on one team are going to cause a roflstomp?
2 people in a maximum of 200 tons is going to create roflstomps?
Seriously dude, come on. If you're unwilling to acknowledge that there's a huge difference in having a 2 man on one or both teams and having a 4+ on one or both teams then you're either trolling, stubbornly refuse to accept that you're wrong, or simply unwilling to accept that math proves a difference?

A group generally has better communication than an equal number of solo players. Better communication generally leads to better teamwork. Better teamwork generally yields better results. Better results equals an advantage.

No matter the size of the group, as long as they communicate and try they will have an advantage over an equal number of solo players. Hence a bigger fish. That is the sum total of what I was saying. How is this even up for discussion?

The larger the group the bigger the advantage (I never said there wasn't a difference between a group of 4 and a group of 2 - a group of 4 will probably yield more than twice the advantage of a group of 2). But a group of any size can and will yield some bit of advantage over an equal number of solo players. Teamwork wins.

Edited by Bazni, 18 July 2014 - 04:28 PM.

[Crazy Billy Joe Bob]

wow, I gave up on this game and uninstalled it almost a year ago because of premades mixed with solo players. all I can say is, better late than never.

[Roland]

cSand, on 18 July 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

Ultimate point here: playing with large groups sucks for everyone except large groups, and I guess some people with some kind of fetish for landslide victories and losses

It only sucks for bads.

[Sandpit]

Bazni, on 18 July 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Teamwork wins.

more people should read more of the guides on the forums
teamwork =/= premade

Sorry but a single 2man group isn't going to sway a match in any significant way. If it does it had nothing to do with 2 players POSSIBLY being on voip.
(I love how it's always assumed that a group is on voip, just like premades are assumed to be some hyper-competitive rigid organization.

2man "groups" (2 people a group does not make, it's a pair) could easily be allowed into the solo queue and solo players who want in should be able to opt into the group queue.

It solves a lot of MM issues in both queues, doesn't throw anything out of balance, and creates more options for players in general (something this game SORELY needs)

The discussion was never about the "advantage" a 2man would have, it was about 2mans not having much fun in the group queue so allowing them to drop in both solves that issue.

[Bazni]

Sandpit, on 18 July 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

more people should read more of the guides on the forums
teamwork =/= premade

Sorry but a single 2man group isn't going to sway a match in any significant way. If it does it had nothing to do with 2 players POSSIBLY being on voip.
(I love how it's always assumed that a group is on voip, just like premades are assumed to be some hyper-competitive rigid organization.

2man "groups" (2 people a group does not make, it's a pair) could easily be allowed into the solo queue and solo players who want in should be able to opt into the group queue.

It solves a lot of MM issues in both queues, doesn't throw anything out of balance, and creates more options for players in general (something this game SORELY needs)

Where did I say teamwork = pre-made? It is seeming as if you are deliberately misinterpreting what is being said, as opposed to trying to understand what the other is saying.

I agree with you on one thing at least, though - more options for players in this game is a good thing.

[Sandpit]

Bazni, on 18 July 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

But a group of any size can and will yield some bit of advantage over an equal number of solo players. Teamwork wins.

how else is that supposed to be interpreted?

[WarZ]

cSand, on 18 July 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Well, personally I'm hardly seen any roflstomps in the solo queue. It's actually a blast to play.

There is no real way to prevent a stomp when you have one side that is a large group.

It has been a joy to play solo this week. Sure you get the occassional game that goes south, but most are pretty close. Lots are VERY close.

So is it a total confirmed fact then, as well as experiences that confirm this ?

[Sandpit]

WarZ, on 18 July 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

It has been a joy to play solo this week. Sure you get the occassional game that goes south, but most are pretty close. Lots are VERY close.

So is it a total confirmed fact then, as well as experiences that confirm this ?

I dropped in the solo queue tonight (because I don't like trying to comment based on second-hand information) to see how it went.
I dropped in Assaults (which is my best weight class so therefore my best Elo, not that I'm saying it's a high Elo, just my personal best Elo among the weight classes)

I dropped 10 games
7 were of 10-2 thru 12-0
3 were close games with less than 5 remaining mechs on the winning side.

A few things I noticed:
One match was on River City Night. The enemy team had 9 clan mechs to our 3. They also started in the upper city. So with clan range, the ability to shoot us immediately after spawning, and the high ground advantages, they lost. They lost because 3 mechs (i dire, a quickdraw, and a timber) derped out one at a time on different sides of the map and quickly got destroyed by our team who focused on them and stuck together.
I then noticed 3 mechs standing up on top of the wall in upper city skylining themselves and just standing there. So they got picked off next. That left us with relatively a relatively healthy 12 mechs against 6. 6 dire wolves wouldn't have done well with those odds. This one was 12-0

Canyon:
We lost this one after going to a 12-9 lead very early on (again, a few derped out and got taken down) but the enemy team then tightened up and used their range. We had several AC20 short range brawlers on our team. Instead of pushing after getting the numbers advantage, they wanted to peek and poke. Mind you, at least 2 were Atlases so 2 of our biggest mechs were basically MIA for most of the fight. We lost 5-0.

Frozen City:
We spawned on the "low side" (the one where you've got the tunnel on the left). We all grouped up and pushed the ridge together. The other team (had more clan mechs) tried to sit back and peek and poke with 2-3 mechs once again derping out alone and getting taken down quickly which just escalated the our win.

With the exception of one game, none of the stomps involved any imbalances. I assume new player numbers were limited (if any at all) because the only C mechs I saw was the one time I dropped in the Highlander C. (which btw is an excellent mech) Even when the other team had us outnumbered in clan mechs, it was never clan mechs that caused the win/loss (there's a few dire wolves limping around right now because they thought my stalker was going to flinch first ) or stomp. One time we just got steamrolled bad. We quite simply just got beat.

The games, with that one exception, were all won or lost based on teamwork, strategy, and tactics. Even without voip it seemed like my teams were almost always willing to pay attention to what was going on. Once on Canyon I ventured out along the 3 line (after notifying my team I was going to take a peek) and got into a situation with a firestarter spotting for their lurms. As I sloooooooooooooooooowly plodded backwards, I had a teammate magically appear to help me run off the spotter and get me reattached to the main force.

Point being I didn't see anything (and again, this is just my own personal experience) that would have made me think "we lost because of (insert and number of reasons other than teamwork and such or jsut getting outplayed)" They were all good games that could have gone either way had one side or the other played it a bit differently.

I know it was just 10 matches in my highest Elo so it's hardly definitive. I saw the same types of complaints though.
"Clans op"
"sorry team"
"cheaters"
"lrms are op" (which I find really funny since I don't run AMS on my stalker and did just fine in the same game)
you name it. It was the same as always. Some players looking for any excuse they can to explain away a loss that didn't involve our team playing poorly or them not paying attention.

WarZ, on 18 July 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

It has been a joy to play solo this week. Sure you get the occassional game that goes south, but most are pretty close. Lots are VERY close.

So is it a total confirmed fact then, as well as experiences that confirm this ?

it's almost guaranteed that if you put 12 randomg solo players in a match with 1-2 groups, they're not going to do very well. The groups are just able to support one another better. I can drop with my regular buddies and typically not even have to communicate much since we've played together so much. I know when to drop back, when to push, etc.
They know when to do that also. So we play into one another very well. It has less to do with voip and more to do with familiarity with one another.

[Kjudoon]

Matchmaker in a nutshell and song:

How we want Matchmaker to work: start to 1:50
How Matchmaker seems to work: 1:50 to 2:30
Our lament begins: 2:30

[N0MAD]

Im half the team in most games i play.
Being part of a small very old gaming group, a big percentage of my playing time in games im usually teamed up with a couple or so guys at any given time,in different games and i spend quite a bit of time with my mate,we are 2 man team.
In a solo q let loose on pugs, well to be honest we can pad our personal stats ( mostly due to wolfy), looking out as a team pays dividends. Game changing? i doubt, no mater what personal stats our W/L is really 50% more or less, thats the pug q.
Having said that we dont mind and really prefer to fight other teams, again in this environment a decent 2 man can add value and do well in any team.
Any Casual small team player is going to miss the solo because its a place you can chill and work on casual mechs rather than having to be in competitive mode all the time.
Dont think 2 man group in solo is a bad thing.

[Demuder]

Sandpit, on 18 July 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

This never would have been an issue if the player base hadn't chose premades as their scapegoat. Groups gone. Roflstomps continue in both queues. All systems nominal. Lol

Hopefully, NOW they can start looking at the real causes and ways to mitigate them

Strangely enough though, there have been no threads or posts about the solo queue being bad because of the new MM. Quite the opposite, there have been several saying that the solo queue is better because of the new MM, stomps or not. Which does indicate that groups in the solo queue were an actual problem, not merely "scapegoats". So yes, putting small groups back into the solo queue would actually create a problem for all the solo players.

The whole problem is verified by all the "casual group" posts here. Apparently, when small premades were faced with pugs, they were able to play "casually" or "fool around" in "casual mechs" and still get their fair share of wins, because, you know... against pugs you don't really have to try that hard when you have a buddy to cover your back.

[Sandpit]

Demuder, on 18 July 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Strangely enough though, there have been no threads or posts about the solo queue being bad because of the new MM. Quite the opposite, there have been several saying that the solo queue is better because of the new MM, stomps or not. Which does indicate that groups in the solo queue were an actual problem, not merely "scapegoats". So yes, putting small groups back into the solo queue would actually create a problem for all the solo players.

The whole problem is verified by all the "casual group" posts here. Apparently, when small premades were faced with pugs, they were able to play "casually" or "fool around" in "casual mechs" and still get their fair share of wins, because, you know... against pugs you don't really have to try that hard when you have a buddy to cover your back.

you have a very poor opinion of the solo players here.

[WarZ]

Demuder, on 18 July 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Strangely enough though, there have been no threads or posts about the solo queue being bad because of the new MM. Quite the opposite, there have been several saying that the solo queue is better because of the new MM, stomps or not. Which does indicate that groups in the solo queue were an actual problem, not merely "scapegoats". So yes, putting small groups back into the solo queue would actually create a problem for all the solo players.

Agreed.