125 replies to this topic

[Heeden]

badaa, on 11 July 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

<snip>

**** just got real!

Looks more like the matrix.

[Joseph Mallan]

Heeden, on 11 July 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

Looks more like the matrix.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

if that is your opinion you are entitled to have it. Now can you prove it?

that is exactly what I have been saying. opinion is just that until proven short truth vs False.

In my statement I would be dead wrong.

Slavery was not in benefit to everyone, So that is false

And Society was not better before the dark ages and the black plague. Well that can be argued about the dark ages but the Black plague was a detriment to everyone so that is false.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 11 July 2014 - 05:13 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

BLOOD WOLF, on 11 July 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

that is exactly what I have been saying. opinion is just that until proven short truth vs False.

In my statement I would be dead wrong.

are you sure about that?

[krash27]

BLOOD WOLF, on 11 July 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

Okay let me say, It is my opinion that the Timber wolf prime is the worst mech ever to hit the field.

It is my opnion that a ship using sails sails faster than a motor boat.

it is my opinion that dogs are smarter than cats.

let me add something. to each of those statements.

It is my opinion that Timberwolf Prime's can be the worst mechs ever to field in a battle.

It is my opinion that sail boats can be faster than motor boats

it is my opinion that dogs can be smarter than cats.

Opinion can absolute be correct, but its only proven so by evidence.

for instance I can say that it is my opinion that I can run faster faster than you. I can by all means prove that to be true.

Or we can use a mech warrior online as an example. It is my or was my opinion that they were not actually working on any new maps; However it was proven to be incorrect as they have two maps in the works.

But at the time you formed your opinion that they were not making maps, they may not have been. so your opinion was not wrong, it changed due to information surfacing.
Hence why an opinion is not a statement of fact, because it does not need to be and sometimes can not be supported by facts. It is an opinion after all.

Edited by krash27, 11 July 2014 - 05:14 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

are you sure about that?

Actually I have stated that opinion can in fact be true. it is entirely possible and I never stated otherwise. opinions do change and they are changed by a number of things.

As for the topics I chose Nobody would say that Slavery was a benefit for everyone expect those who owned them. It's weird but you have to consider the periods. Ancient world vs modern world.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 11 July 2014 - 05:30 PM.

[Void Angel]

Rashhaverak, on 11 July 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

The OP has failed to make their point.

You don't disprove opinion. Opinions are not things that can be dis-proven. However, you can change opinion.

As for truth... Take whatever you think, and then whatever another thinks, and the truth will probably lay somewhere in between.

krash27, on 11 July 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

Oh my god and now you are trying to prove that you can disprove a persons opinion, simply hilarious.

Everyone's opinion is valid.

Both of you just tried to disprove his opinion - by citing your opinions that "you can't disprove opinion, and that "everyone's opinion is valid," respectively. If the truth lies somewhere between two peoples opinions (what they think,) then what if they think mutually exclusive things? Similarly, the second statement, that everyone's opinion is valid, has difficulties: if all opinions are valid, then the opinion that they are not all valid is valid, too! Such statements lead to contradictions if followed to their logical conclusions.

Now, a general communication difficulty in this thread is that there's some inadvertent use of equivocation going on about the use of the term "opinion." Opinion is being used as a shorthand for "non-falsifiable claim," by some people, notably the OP, but others are using the more proper definition of "something believed, which might or might not be factual." The problem is that all statements about fact are also opinions, so while "fact v. opinion" might be a convenient way to introduce the subject to young children - as in the "Panda" video linked on the first page of this thread - the mismatch in how people are using the terms is causing some confusion and illogical discussion.

In any case, it never ceases to dismay me just a little when people rely on truth to tell me it doesn't exist, or isn't determinable.

[Joseph Mallan]

Void Angel, on 11 July 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:

Both of you just tried to disprove his opinion - by citing your opinions that "you can't disprove opinion, and that "everyone's opinion is valid," respectively. If the truth lies somewhere between two peoples opinions (what they think,) then what if they think mutually exclusive things? Similarly, the second statement, that everyone's opinion is valid, has difficulties: if all opinions are valid, then the opinion that they are not all valid is valid, too! Such statements lead to contradictions if followed to their logical conclusions.

Now, a general communication difficulty in this thread is that there's some inadvertent use of equivocation going on about the use of the term "opinion." Opinion is being used as a shorthand for "non-falsifiable claim," by some people, notably the OP, but others are using the more proper definition of "something believed, which might or might not be factual." The problem is that all statements about fact are also opinions, so while "fact v. opinion" might be a convenient way to introduce the subject to young children - as in the "Panda" video linked on the first page of this thread - the mismatch in how people are using the terms is causing some confusion and illogical discussion.

In any case, it never ceases to dismay me just a little when people rely on truth to tell me it doesn't exist, or isn't determinable.

The higher, the fewer!

[krash27]

Void Angel, on 11 July 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:

Both of you just tried to disprove his opinion - by citing your opinions that "you can't disprove opinion, and that "everyone's opinion is valid," respectively. If the truth lies somewhere between two peoples opinions (what they think,) then what if they think mutually exclusive things? Similarly, the second statement, that everyone's opinion is valid, has difficulties: if all opinions are valid, then the opinion that they are not all valid is valid, too! Such statements lead to contradictions if followed to their logical conclusions.

Now, a general communication difficulty in this thread is that there's some inadvertent use of equivocation going on about the use of the term "opinion." Opinion is being used as a shorthand for "non-falsifiable claim," by some people, notably the OP, but others are using the more proper definition of "something believed, which might or might not be factual." The problem is that all statements about fact are also opinions, so while "fact v. opinion" might be a convenient way to introduce the subject to young children - as in the "Panda" video linked on the first page of this thread - the mismatch in how people are using the terms is causing some confusion and illogical discussion.

In any case, it never ceases to dismay me just a little when people rely on truth to tell me it doesn't exist, or isn't determinable.

Well put. someone took the time to explain it, thank you.
I apologize for my poor wording, all I was really trying to get across is that it is a little silly to hear people basically say that someone elses opinion is wrong because here are the facts... and the facts are generally opinion/hyperbole anyway.

Edited by krash27, 11 July 2014 - 06:01 PM.

[Void Angel]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 July 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

if that is your opinion you are entitled to have it. Now can you prove it?

BLOOD WOLF, on 11 July 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

that is exactly what I have been saying. opinion is just that until proven short truth vs False.

In my statement I would be dead wrong.

Slavery was not in benefit to everyone, So that is false

And Society was not better before the dark ages and the black plague. Well that can be argued about the dark ages but the Black plague was a detriment to everyone so that is false.

Just so; everyone is entitled to their own opinion - they are not entitled to their own facts.

krash27, on 11 July 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

But at the time you formed your opinion that they were not making maps, they may not have been. so your opinion was not wrong, it changed due to information surfacing.
Hence why an opinion is not a statement of fact, because it does not need to be and sometimes can not be supported by facts. It is an opinion after all.

Not actually, no. An opinion is not always a statement of fact, but it can be. Whether an opinion is also a statement of fact depends on its factuality, and on nothing else. Thus, if he held the opinion that they were not making maps at a time when they were making maps, his opinion was wrong at the time, regardless of whether or not he knew it. What you're describing is whether or not his opinion was reasonable, based on the information he had at those points, not whether or not it was factual.

krash27, on 11 July 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

Well put. someone took the time to explain it, thank you.
I apologize for my poor wording, all I was really trying to get across is that it is a little silly to hear people basically say that someone elses opinion is wrong because here are the facts... and the facts are generally opinion/hyperbole anyway.

It never hurts to help!

[BLOOD WOLF]

What about Opinion vs truth?

is an opinion always true?

[krash27]

BLOOD WOLF, on 11 July 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

What about Opinion vs truth?

is an opinion always true?

Nobody said opinions are always true. Because they are not and nor did I claim they were always true. Your example of the maps is a great example for this sir.
edited so as not to be derogatory.

As an after thought, when I say all opinions are valid, I do not mean they are true, false, sustainable by "facts etc.
I meant all opinions are metrics when weighing in on an issue, good or bad.

Edited by krash27, 11 July 2014 - 06:11 PM.

[Void Angel]

Oh, you replied fast. The thing to remember about words is that they are important - language isn't just a system of communication, it's a system of thought. So when we use words sloppily, we often can't help but think a bit carelessly as well. That's something we can get away with in daily conversation, but in philosophy you can get some truly dangerous beliefs out of it - like the idea that all opinions can be equally valid.

[Joseph Mallan]

BLOOD WOLF, on 11 July 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

What about Opinion vs truth?

is an opinion always true?

Let test that.

In my opinion you are a 3 year old girl with pigtails! Is that true?

[Void Angel]

BLOOD WOLF, on 11 July 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

What about Opinion vs truth?

is an opinion always true?

That's like asking about rectangles v. squares. All opinions are not true, but all truth claims are opinions. If we use the terms "opinion" and "fact" as mutually exclusive, we end up with the epistemological equivalent of a non-rectangular square.

[krash27]

Void Angel, on 11 July 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Oh, you replied fast. The thing to remember about words is that they are important - language isn't just a system of communication, it's a system of thought. So when we use words sloppily, we often can't help but think a bit carelessly as well. That's something we can get away with in daily conversation, but in philosophy you can get some truly dangerous beliefs out of it - like the idea that all opinions can be equally valid.

Edited my post as my use of the word "valid" is being taken out of context I think.
Ahh the written word, so easy to take out of context.

krash27, on 11 July 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

Nobody said opinions are always true. Because they are not and nor did I claim they were always true. Your example of the maps is a great example for this sir.
edited so as not to be derogatory.

As an after thought, when I say all opinions are valid, I do not mean they are true, false, sustainable by "facts etc.
I meant all opinions are metrics when weighing in on an issue, good or bad.

Edited by krash27, 11 July 2014 - 06:16 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

krash27, on 11 July 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

Nobody said opinions are always true. Because they are not and nor did I claim they were always true. Your example of the maps is a great example for this sir.
edited so as not to be derogatory.

As an after thought, when I say all opinions are valid, I do not mean they are true, false, sustainable by "facts etc.
I meant all opinions are metrics when weighing in on an issue, good or bad.

what about my example was off?

[General Taskeen]

http://en.wikipedia....rationalization ?

[krash27]

BLOOD WOLF, on 11 July 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

what about my example was off?

Your map example is a great example that culture and/or lack of knowledge can lead us all to have an opinion that is not necessarily true.

[BLOOD WOLF]

General Taskeen, on 11 July 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....rationalization ?

"For example, a consumer cannot decide between two popular video game consoles, but in the end decides to purchase the one that many of their peers also own. After purchasing it, they may find few games for their console worth purchasing, and more for the console they did not purchase. However, they do not wish to feel they made the wrong decision, and so will attempt to convince themselves, and their peers, that their original choice was the correct one, and the consumer's opinion is better than everyone's opinion, i.e. using sour grapesarguments"

[color=#252525]That often times that leads to irrationality. I can not justify breaking someones window over an argument of grape soda. No matter how much I rationalize it I will still have to face the reality of my actions. Action vs concequence

Meaning If I stole from you, It does not matter how much I try to justify it. The truth Is that I stole and therefore suffer the consequence.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 11 July 2014 - 06:32 PM.