94 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 14 July 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

But..dude...EL ARE EMMMSS!!!!!

Is that a selfie of CarrionCrows talking LRMs, I spy?

[Cyborne Elemental]

Yes friendly fire is going to be fun as well.

[Lykaon]

Koniving, on 13 July 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

Aside from hotloaded being an ammunition type (fixed in a sequential post), name a misstatement with a reference so I can correct it? I was using multiple sources but I'm aware that Sarna is not always the most reliable

(I mean there are several entries on mechs that actually believe AC/20s do 20 damage in a single bullet rather than a single turn; comedy considering the books, tech manuals, fluff manuals, etc. both official and apocryphal all state that ACs fire many shots but are simplified in the tabletop turns due to the shear number of weapon variants which would need its own 500+ page rule reference book).

Wait, I do see one.

"Non-locking SRMs as we have now, are in fact Dead Fire missiles which deal 3 damage, not 2, and have variations for LRMs and SRMs. (Dead-fire LRMs deal 2 damage instead of 1)."

Where it should have been:
"Non-locking SRMs as we have in MWO now, are in fact akin to Dead Fire missiles which should deal 3 damage, not 2, and have variations for LRMs and SRMs. (Dead-fire LRMs deal 2 damage instead of 1). These are being passed off as regular SRMs when nothing could be further from the truth.

Regular SRMs are listed as "Direct Fire" weapons. In the tech-manual that Stjobe once referenced they systematically make a lock per missile, though they can be fired prematurely without guidance. In some books they are described as locked, yet in some others they are described as heat seeking but easily distracted (so some official books do conflict, but the official manuals say lock-on)."

Though the systematic per-missile lock is actually managed already. One must remember that Inner Sphere mechs that are not on homeworlds or owned by nobles are typically decades to centuries old, constantly salvaged and repaired with much of the technology's understanding lost up until the discovery of the Helm Memory Core.

There was nearly (or over?) a hundred years where NARCs couldn't be produced anymore; it's referenced many times, but it's also right on the Kintaro's page on Sarna.

One: Missile locks in Battletech are handled by the launcher not per missile.This means the actions taken to fire an LRM launcher in Battletech are...

Indicate a target.
Calculate the target number to hit that target.
Roll the dice to meet that target number.
Roll on the cluster hit table to determine how many LRMs hit the target.
Apply damage in 5 point clusters to the target
Adjust heat and ammo consumption.

No matter how many LRMs that can be fired from the launcher only ONE die roll was needed to hit.You do NOT need to roll to lock per missile it's per launcher.

Deadfire missiles use a specific mechanic in battle tech.When a missile launcher hits a target the next step is to roll for how many missiles hit the target.This is a 2d6 roll the value rolled is compared to the cluster hits table to determine the actual number of missile that hit.Deadfire missiles roll 3d6 and take the two worst die rolls to calculate the number of missiles hit.
As you can see there is no direct translation into MWo for a 2d6 roll and a chart reference so,not an accurate portrayal of MWo SRMs/LRMs vs B-tech SRMs/LRMs.

Battletech SRMs and Streaks mechanics are not at all as you describe.Both SRMs and Streaks use the same procedure to fire on a target the one important difference is Streaks do not roll on the cluster hits table all streaks hit automaticly so a streak SRM6 will always hit with 6 missiles while an SRM6 would need to roll for the number of missiles that hit on the cluster table.

MWO SRMs do have guidance systems .If they did not a catapult firing SRMs would see them fire in a straight line from the arm "boxes" instead we see the SRM volley turn inward towards the HUD aiming reticule.Since the point of impact for the center of the volley of SRMs is pointed towards the HUD targeting reticule and not a straight line away from the mounting point of the SRM launcher this is a guidance system in play.

In "proper lore" (that you are incorrect about) 2 Inner sphere SRM6 are not equal to a Clan LRM20.Even without a direct damage value compareson (24 max on the 2 SRM6 vs 20 max on the clan LRM20) The LRM20 possesses significantly higher versitility with a substantial range advantage,indirect fire capablity and of course a more compact size (3 crits vs 4 crits) and lower tonnage (5 tons vs 6 tons) A pair of Inner Sphere SRM6s will compare favorably to a single clan LRM20 but only when the SRM launchers are within their range of 270m (realisticly to balance the base target numbers on hit rolls in B-tech the SRMs would want to be within 90m (3 hex) short range to counter the clan LRM 180m (6 hex) short range. So you are basicaly correct if an Inner Sphere mech with 2 SRM6s can teleport to within 90m of a clan mech with an LRM20.

P.S. referencing the Tactical "cheese"book is a good way to remove your credibility with a lot of old school table top B-tech players.Seriously that book"let" seems to have been written by/for twelve year olds. Magpulse missiles indeed,AX missile warheads <scoff> Silver bullet gauss?? why? Mechanical jump boosters?

Level three rules are in essence a pile of optional "house" rules that have several poor mechanics interactions with little play testing.Most players don't touch lvl 3 because of this.

[Lykaon]

Having used the clan LRMs (and LRMs in general) I am finding the current benefits of clan LRMs to be sufficent enough to merit their "clannyness" as superior weapons over I.S. versions.

Half tonnage and smaller launcher sizes is a BIG deal.It becomes viable to toss on a couple of LRM launchers onto a brawler build with clantech granting an all clan mech team a significant advantage in mech build versitility that I.S. mechs can not compete with.

At this point I see no need to change the clan LRMs at all.there is no need to give them better crit spaces,tonnage AND minimal range capabilities.

[Livewyr]

I wish they would make them direct fire, or a very slight arc, along with their minimum range. (More clan-like, better differentiation from IS, and a requirement of Jumpjets to fire over close obstacles.)

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 14 July 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

I wish they would make them direct fire, or a very slight arc, along with their minimum range. (More clan-like, better differentiation from IS, and a requirement of Jumpjets to fire over close obstacles.)

or ONLY capable of indirect fire when an enemy unit is NARC'd or TAG'd?

[Oni Ralas]

As an LRM user who has been dancing at 180-300m his whole career, I welcome this. I do, however, want them ballanced. The last thing I want is for more nooblets to start using LRMs, thus pushing the sterotype even further of bad play with the weapon. I know it's going to happen though

[Mcgral18]

Mister D, on 14 July 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Yes friendly fire is going to be fun as well.

Yep, all 0.01 damage at 10M will be devastating.

[Wolfways]

Bobby Blast, on 14 July 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

You don't even see LRMs in high ELO games so who cares?

Players not in high ELO?

[Joseph Mallan]

Wolfways, on 14 July 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

BAD Players not in high ELO?

Is it OK that I fixed it?

[Sephlock]

Mcgral18, on 14 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Yep, all 0.01 damage at 10M will be devastating.

Psychologically, sure.

The whiners will act like the experience of getting hit by an LRM20 at point blank range gave them PTSD -but not the real kind of PTSD- the tumblr kind, where they can ***** and moan endlessly and really be just fine but get all the entitlement that they feel a legit disorder should grant them.

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

or ONLY capable of indirect fire when an enemy unit is NARC'd or TAG'd?

Honestly, I would just as soon keep them direct fire regardless.

It would nerf their indirect capability (which is decidedly un-clan anyways)
It would buff their time-to-target (by taking a shorter route in the first place)

C-TAG and C-Narc would just give them accuracy bonuses, IMO. (Hell, TAG is not even supposed to do that in the first place, IIRC.)

[Bishop Steiner]

Livewyr, on 14 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Honestly, I would just as soon keep them direct fire regardless.

It would nerf their indirect capability (which is decidedly un-clan anyways)
It would buff their time-to-target (by taking a shorter route in the first place)

C-TAG and C-Narc would just give them accuracy bonuses, IMO. (Hell, TAG is not even supposed to do that in the first place, IIRC.)

would pretty much kill off NARC at it's weight. And While I find the concept of NARC, and Zellbrigen to be just one more area that made ZERO sense, it is indeed there. So it shouldn't be LESS useful than the IS version.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

would pretty much kill off NARC at it's weight. And While I find the concept of NARC, and Zellbrigen to be just one more area that made ZERO sense, it is indeed there. So it shouldn't be LESS useful than the IS version.

Well....if they worked with SRMs like they are supposed to...

[Livewyr]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

would pretty much kill off NARC at it's weight. And While I find the concept of NARC, and Zellbrigen to be just one more area that made ZERO sense, it is indeed there. So it shouldn't be LESS useful than the IS version.

The EMP effect of Narc still makes a difference. (Coupled with an accuracy bonus, it would still be worth while, at least in my opinion.)

[EDIT] And what McGral18 said- lol.

I also think they should introduce Arrow IV (for TAG) and Long Tom Cannons.. but like the idea of direct LRMs, not likely to be introduced.

Edited by Livewyr, 14 July 2014 - 12:22 PM.

[Sandpit]

A much better, and easier, way to implement it (at least in my opinion) would have been making them dumb fire under 180 meters so you lose the benefit of having them lock onto a target.

It makes zero sense to explain it away by saying "they do less damage"
uhm why?
Do they not explode?
Do they somehow magically reduce their payload under 180 meters?

[Livewyr]

Sandpit, on 14 July 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

A much better, and easier, way to implement it (at least in my opinion) would have been making them dumb fire under 180 meters so you lose the benefit of having them lock onto a target.

It makes zero sense to explain it away by saying "they do less damage"
uhm why?
Do they not explode?
Do they somehow magically reduce their payload under 180 meters?

That would be most splendid.

[Appogee]

Let's just hope they never add Arrow IVs.

[Rhent]

Koniving, on 13 July 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

Not bothered by it, but I do believe it will prove something I've been annoyed by for a long time.

LRM spam.

Spoiler

LRMs fire too fast, too frequently, and are too spammy. I think reducing their reload times (akin to Clan streaks; though my own ideas were longer than that) but keeping the DPS the same (which means the longer the reload wait is set to, the more damage the missiles should do when fired) would entail far less spam and more tactical use out of the missiles.

I've got no problem with the damage of missiles or even the damage dealt over time, especially with the spread of Clan LRMs (it's all over the place).

My issue is with how fast they reload, multiple launchers can churn out missiles faster than the machine gun can fire and that isn't right. You'd expect that of rockets or dead-fire weapons, not lock on weaponry.

Battletech doesn't lock all at once.

Spoiler

Especially since in BT, for every launch the target must be re-acquired and it's a lock per missile, not a lock for all missiles at once. (Lock 1, lock 2, lock 3, lock 4, lock 5, lock 6, lock 7, lock 8, lock 9, lock 10, lock 11, lock 12, lock 13, lock 14, lock 15, lock 16... there's a reason they didn't boat massive numbers of launchers). You could even try it as having 1 lock per millisecond, and simultaneous locks for multiple launchers (but a slower locking rate, for example a lock for each missile every 0.2 seconds; done at the same time for 2 launchers).

Or simply require a relock after each firing (I'm speaking about missiles for both sides, including streaks). Though I do see the problem with it as well, as it'd greatly affect chain firing. ....At the same time though that'd greatly reduce the 'spam' and force players attuned to ghost heat limitations to reduce their launcher counts or bear with it.

Battletech SRMs are guided.

Spoiler

In fact Battletech's SRMs did this per missile lock as well as Streaks and it's mentioned on the Sarna pages for both. The difference being that SRMs could fire without, where Streaks would Never allow a firing until it believed all shots would hit in its perceived firing solution.

Non-locking SRMs as we have now, are in fact Dead Fire missiles which deal 3 damage, not 2, and have variations for LRMs and SRMs. (Dead-fire LRMs deal 2 damage instead of 1).

Also, Battletech SRMs just like Battletech LRMs, had "NARC-capable" ammo and "TAG-capable" ammo. MWO has combined standard LRMs, NARC-capable and TAG-capable [titled semi-guided] ammunition into one batchall and price. As such PGI should batchall standard SRMs, NARC and TAG-capable SRMs, and slap them together in just the same way.

So SRMs should, in fact, have guidance and it's a travesty and a slap in the face of the lore for them NOT to have guidance. They are simply guided missiles with the ability to fire without locks or with partial locks.

Another fun fact: Streaks were incapable of locking on to NARC beacons, as Streaks could not use alternate types of ammunition and the launchers used a visual image of the target to calculate hit probability. Just a fun thought.

Lore proper SRMs would outclass Clan LRMs in close range combat.

Spoiler

IS mechs could use 2 SRM-6s with guidance and locks to counter the same thing that a Clan LRM-20 can do, with additional damage currently as it seems (though 2 SRM-6s would do identical damage to 1 LRM-20's 1.1 damage per missile or 22 damage, at the plain-jane 2 damage per missile). It's slightly more heat but without the scaling damage issue. Seems perfectly fine of a solution to me.

With guided SRMs, we might not even need the scaling damage concept as a Clan LRM-20 weighs more than 3 Clan SRM-6s and slightly less than 2 Clan Streak 6s. So a Clan LRM user is sacrificing a lot of potential to use LRMs as brawling weapons. Since PGI's Clan streak 6s will never miss and defy all laws of physics, it's still a better idea to bring two Streak 6s than one LRM-20 for close range combat.

The IS had special ammunition for no minimum range as a Level 3 optional rule in the Tactical handbook (which PGI has taken its forward-arc sensor system from Tactical's double blind rules so why not take more?)

Spoiler

The Inner Sphere have a similar style of no minimum range LRMs in Battletech available long before 3025, these are called Hot-Loaded LRMs. There's risk involved where if the launcher is destroyed the missiles loaded will detonate and explode (LRM 15 hotloaded = 15 missiles go boom). There's also a random chance for explosion on firing when hotloaded, which only seemed to be checked for when firing below minimum range. (Megamek I've noticed only seems to check for it when fired at minimum range or below and if it does check all the time, we can simply limit the game to check for close range or simply have the ammo loaded detonate when the launcher is destroyed).

So there's something else the IS mechs could do. But it's simply a better choice to pack on 2 SRM-6s with the lore proper guidance.

Just some food for thought. Battletech lore has many available counters and all of them seem fair to me. PGI and community, take your pick. What's your favorite counter-measure?

(Edited for ease of reading and space conservation.)
TL;DR, wouldn't care if PGI did some lore-based solutions for the IS, like guided SRMs as all standard SRMs are guided. Only Dead-Fire SRMs (link provided in the spoilers) are not.

No to everything you posted. Equip radar deprivation and pilot properly and you should NOT be killed by LRM's. If you are at that point, you seriously need to rethink what you are doing in the game.

[Appogee]

Sandpit, on 14 July 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

It makes zero sense to explain it away by saying "they do less damage"
uhm why?
Do they not explode?
Do they somehow magically reduce their payload under 180 meters?

Yeah, but... PGI.