364 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

FupDup, on 13 July 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

The real monster boogeyman is instant, perfect convergence. We can combine a large number of weapons to form a single, devastating 30-50 point superweapon that pile-drives through the toughest armor. Mechs that can jump just so happen to be better at taking advantage of this than land-bound mechs, due to exposure time.

The bogeyman is actually a trio of bogeymen: Perfect Accuracy, Instant Convergence, and Front-Loaded Damage. Those are the three MechWarriors of the MWO Apocalypse, for the exact reason you state.

[FupDup]

stjobe, on 13 July 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

The bogeyman is actually a trio of bogeymen: Perfect Accuracy, Instant Convergence, and Front-Loaded Damage. Those are the three MechWarriors of the MWO Apocalypse, for the exact reason you state.

Well, FLD exploits convergence/accuracy far more drastically and easily than other weapon types, but conv/acc are still issues with most weapons when used in moderate-high numbers. Even a bank of 6 Clan ER Meds can tear a nice hole in things (provided that you keep the beam somewhat steady).

[Gyrok]

GreyGriffin, on 13 July 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

What 'Mechs do you bring to a competitive match and why?

Honestly, we typically drop in league play, which allows us to know to a greater degree what loadouts and mechs we want to use based on the strategy.

I will say this about mech preferences for clan mechs:

There is currently a split about preference of TW over Summoner among our clan. Roughly 60-70% like the TW, though others prefer the Summoner because of the better agility.

Stormcrow seems to be preferred almost universally over Nova.

Kitfox is preferred light, by a wide margin.

For Assaults, honestly it is tactic dependent and map dependent. Some maps DW over WH other maps, vice versa.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 13 July 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

Clearly you put a lot of thought into this post, which makes it all the more painful to point out the obvious flaws in your logic: Elo and matchmaker. You see, thanks to those two items players don't have to dedicate hours of their life to a computer game.

Casual players should be able to play the game and enjoy themselves, and if you think differently, then I am affraid you have been wasting 30-40 hours a week because with out the casual gamer, MWO will fail and shut down.

To be clear, under no circumstance is L2P a valid argument for balance issues in a non-competitive arena. I am glad you and your friends take the game so seriously, it is good to have a hardcore fanbase, however I hope you realize you are the minority, and recognize that this game lives or dies based on the support of the typical gamer.

Agent, I did not want to get into a monetary debate, however, I would bet you that the average money spent on this game per player in my clan alone is over $400 invested...many of us...(myself included) are over $800-900 into the game...and some (like others I know in the clan) are likely over $1200-1500 invested into this game.

So, as for "we need the casuals"...nah, we really do not...though I am not one to sit around and say someone cannot play the game. They have the solo queue for that. If they want to learn to play the game, I will offer an open invitation to anyone to hop on our TS and drop with us and learn how to play the game better.

You would often be amazed what simply 2 hours of teaching in drops can do for someone who comes in from the PUG crowd.

Adiuvo, on 13 July 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

So... why do teams better than yours and players better than you think that specific clan mechs are OP?

Also, while I appreciate that you guys are playing in at least Marik Civil War, and while I hope for your continued improvement... you and your team haven't done anything notable. At this stage it doesn't make sense to toss out playtime as if that alone proves your skill.

Why do other teams who are as good as yours say they are not OP?

There is a redirect for you...the burden of proof is on you to prove they are OP. Show numbers, legitimate math to prove how this is so. I am telling you I have looked at turning radius/arm movement/jump capability/hit boxes and all sorts of other things SCOWERING clan mechs in the mech lab. You claim you have, so I offer you the chance to prove it. Show me where a TW is OP because it does X or Y better than a Cataphract or Victor. But, "I have observed" or "I feel", or "we think" is not an numerical value that can be offered for comparison and resolve the dispute. So show me what you base your "seat of the pants" claim on...because if you are only using the seat of your pants...that does nothing to prove or disprove anything. Many people hate the DW for example...I play it as well as any other assault mech...and rather enjoy it.

Additionally...so what if we have done nothing notable by your standards...if we were measuring ourselves against any bar other than our own, then the goal posts would continually get moved. As it stands, we are participating in several leagues, and we have played some tight, well fought games against teams on your level, and while we lose more than we win, we still win some. We also win more often these days...and will continue to do so. Though it will be our way, not yours...

Do you know what happens when something crushes the old meta? It becomes the new meta...not saying we are there yet...though I know it is coming. Are you prepared for it?

[stjobe]

FupDup, on 13 July 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

Well, FLD exploits convergence/accuracy far more drastically and easily than other weapon types, but conv/acc are still issues with most weapons when used in moderate-high numbers. Even a bank of 6 Clan ER Meds can tear a nice hole in things (provided that you keep the beam somewhat steady).

I wasn't disagreeing with you, just elaborating.

[dario03]

Gyrok, on 13 July 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

So, while you may take L2P as derogatory, and in shortened form it may come off as that. However, the reality is...skill is OP. No mech is unkillable, no loadout is completely foolproof, and no pilot is completely unerring. Some just commit fewer errors than others.

While that is true, some mechs and some builds are just flat out better. Yes skill is a huge deciding factor but the reality is skill is not the only deciding factor. If two teams of equal skill fought each other but one uses nothing but Timberwolfs and one uses nothing but Orions, I would put my money on the TW team.

A lot of factors determines who wins a game, and equipment is one of those factors. That is true in just about any game.

[Bulletsponge0]

Adiuvo, on 13 July 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

?... like really, I don't get what you're saying at all.

We don't use them in comp because they aren't available for cbills yet. No other teams can either, so it's not like it's an uneven playing field. This rule was put in through the league admins, ie., the competitive community made this rule for itself. It's not like PGI banned clans or anything...

In pub play? Yeah, it's basically TImberwolves all day long.

I disagree. I see a wide variety of mechs in pub play, not just TWs. I'm not in the dregs, I'm not in the upper echelon. I'm somewhere in the middle...where the majority of MW:O players are. matches there aren't decided by what team has more TWs. And the middle, where the majority of players are, is what MW:O devs should be catering to, the the extreme ends.

[Gyrok]

Adiuvo, on 13 July 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Clans have free case. At worst you'll just lose the component. IIRC ammunition on clans still moves from left to right so after the CT ammo is gone the left arm ammo will be used up, and once it is you're fine since you'll presumably be keeping your right side from harm.

Losing a side torso and the associated firepower is a problem on any mech, including IS ones. There aren't any brawlers in this game that are fully asymmetrical. That's a sniper only thing.

You don't need to fire all the medium lasers all the time... DPS wise you'd be relying on the SRMs if you're in a prolonged fight. Knocking it down to two meds gives you enough staying power anyways.

And yeah, the JJ is pretty important and since the TW doesn't have them locked it can use one just fine. Now if it was locked to 4 when using S side torsos...

Sure, now if the Victor was locked into using a STD320 Engine all the time...

[R Razor]

Gyrok, on 13 July 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Agent, I did not want to get into a monetary debate, however, I would bet you that the average money spent on this game per player in my clan alone is over $400 invested...many of us...(myself included) are over $800-900 into the game...and some (like others I know in the clan) are likely over $1200-1500 invested into this game.

So, as for "we need the casuals"...nah, we really do not...though I am not one to sit around and say someone cannot play the game. They have the solo queue for that. If they want to learn to play the game, I will offer an open invitation to anyone to hop on our TS and drop with us and learn how to play the game better.

Are you really so naive or ignorant as to believe that because 30 or 50 or hell, I'll be generous, 100 of you high rolling "league" players spent between $400 and $1500 over the course of 3 years, there is no need for the casual player in order to keep PGI afloat?

It's arrogant, egotistical and moronic posts like this that contribute to the general dislike of you so called "top tier" players.

Most folks have far better things to do with their lives than spend 35+ hours a week practicing to get better at a GAME just so we can come on a forum and post about how great we are because we practice so much.

[Gyrok]

dario03, on 13 July 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

While that is true, some mechs and some builds are just flat out better. Yes skill is a huge deciding factor but the reality is skill is not the only deciding factor. If two teams of equal skill fought each other but one uses nothing but Timberwolfs and one uses nothing but Orions, I would put my money on the TW team.

A lot of factors determines who wins a game, and equipment is one of those factors. That is true in just about any game.

Sure, Against Orions...

But what about Dragonslayers...that is really the question. Would you bet against the DS? You and I both know you would not...and no one in their right mind would either.

R Razor, on 13 July 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

Are you really so naive or ignorant as to believe that because 30 or 50 or hell, I'll be generous, 100 of you high rolling "league" players spent between $400 and $1500 over the course of 3 years, there is no need for the casual player in order to keep PGI afloat?

It's arrogant, egotistical and moronic posts like this that contribute to the general dislike of you so called "top tier" players.

Most folks have far better things to do with their lives than spend 35+ hours a week practicing to get better at a GAME just so we can come on a forum and post about how great we are because we practice so much.

Actually 150+ of us...though, my point is more that the comp crowd is likely spending money 10 to 1 against the average player. NOT focused entirely on our group alone.

And yes, that was my point...some people will never have the time to dedicate. This is not a "look at me" post...this is a "this is why" post. If people understand the time spent by those they are playing against, perhaps they will understand that the VAST MAJORITY of the issues are not at all related to a mech. They are related to a few mechanics that are broken, and the fact that the skill gap is likely enormous.

Edited by Gyrok, 13 July 2014 - 03:32 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Individual player skill has zero relevance to game balance.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Adiuvo, on 13 July 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Clans have free case. At worst you'll just lose the component. IIRC ammunition on clans still moves from left to right so after the CT ammo is gone the left arm ammo will be used up, and once it is you're fine since you'll presumably be keeping your right side from harm.

Losing a side torso and the associated firepower is a problem on any mech, including IS ones. There aren't any brawlers in this game that are fully asymmetrical. That's a sniper only thing.

You don't need to fire all the medium lasers all the time... DPS wise you'd be relying on the SRMs if you're in a prolonged fight. Knocking it down to two meds gives you enough staying power anyways.

And yeah, the JJ is pretty important and since the TW doesn't have them locked it can use one just fine. Now if it was locked to 4 when using S side torsos...

My point was that IS mechs can at the very least make thier ammo symetrical. I always build my brawlers so that if one side is lost, the effect to the weapons on the other side is minimal...My Misery for example. All the large lasers and heatsinks are on one side, medium lasers and ac20 ammo on the other. Take out my ballistic? I retrain all my heatsinks and hard hitting energy weapons Take out my laser side? I retain my ac20 and most of my medium lasers and one large laser.

The point wasnt about ammo explosions, the point was about ammo LOSS...losing the arm still removes the ammuniton. I cant tell you how many times ive seen dual lrm 20 madcats just go suicide rush after ive blown thier arms off. There is little to no room for ammo with that many missile racks in the torso. IS mechs do not have that issue to that degree. Having good survivability goes beyond just being alive after side torso loss, but also still being combat effective. Madcats do NOT really have this going for them....THe dreaded ppc gauss cat is actually pretty easy to gimp if you manage to crit that gauss rifle, and they have all thier weapons on one side as I have often seen that mech built.

[R Razor]

Gyrok, on 13 July 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

Actually 150+ of us...

When someone from PGI or IGP comes in and posts that they make overhead each month based off of the $400 - $1500 that 150 (hell let's make it 450 just for shits and grins) league players spent OVER A THREE YEAR PERIOD, I'll gladly concede that there is no need for us dirty "casual" players..........unfortunately for you, I don't think is EVER going to happen.

And more of the issue with this game is directly related to broken game mechanics than it is skill........it's merely compounded by the fact that someone that dedicates 35 - 40 hours a week "practicing" is going to be better able to exploit that broken game mechanic than someone who only plays 5 - 10 hours a week or less.

[Adiuvo]

Gyrok, on 13 July 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Why do other teams who are as good as yours say they are not OP?

There is a redirect for you...the burden of proof is on you to prove they are OP. Show numbers, legitimate math to prove how this is so. I am telling you I have looked at turning radius/arm movement/jump capability/hit boxes and all sorts of other things SCOWERING clan mechs in the mech lab. You claim you have, so I offer you the chance to prove it. Show me where a TW is OP because it does X or Y better than a Cataphract or Victor. But, "I have observed" or "I feel", or "we think" is not an numerical value that can be offered for comparison and resolve the dispute. So show me what you base your "seat of the pants" claim on...because if you are only using the seat of your pants...that does nothing to prove or disprove anything. Many people hate the DW for example...I play it as well as any other assault mech...and rather enjoy it.

Additionally...so what if we have done nothing notable by your standards...if we were measuring ourselves against any bar other than our own, then the goal posts would continually get moved. As it stands, we are participating in several leagues, and we have played some tight, well fought games against teams on your level, and while we lose more than we win, we still win some. We also win more often these days...and will continue to do so. Though it will be our way, not yours...

Do you know what happens when something crushes the old meta? It becomes the new meta...not saying we are there yet...though I know it is coming. Are you prepared for it?

You've never provided numbers or any basic analysis besides saying 'IT'S NOT OP' over and over again and saying dumb crap like 'it has a massive CT.'

I've already said what I'm about to say many many times. So I'm just going to copy over a post I made on the subject earlier.

Quote

It's a lot of little things.


Mobility: 89kph is faster than everything else that can run a 2xPPC/Gauss loadout and is also faster than many SRM boats, especially with that level of firepower. It also has JJs, which is powerful for obvious reasons.

Durability: Clan XLs don't die with the loss of a ST, so the Timberwolf gets an entire dead side to use for shielding. Coupled with the 50% damage transfer from a dead component and it's quite tanky. The JJ animation for the Timberwolf is probably the worst in the game, in that the mech gets to jump several meters in the air for free, allowing it to spread damage without any effort and to bunnyhop ridiculously well. The Dragon Slayer has the same issue, though it's not as bad as it is with the Timberwolf.

Firepower: It has a great balance of hardpoints that allow it to excel in any role it wants.The hardpoint locations aren't terrible, either.

Hitboxes: They're good. It's easy to spread damage in a TW due to the CT only covering the front of the nose and the large engine.

Clan benefits: These include things such as the 7crit endo/ferro that give it a comparatively large amount of free tonnage, but also the 2crit DHS.

Speed is the biggest thing here. Speed is what gives you versatility and is immensely powerful in both comp play and pug play. It cannot be overstated how important moving fast is. The TW sacrifices very little for its speed.

The point about me bringing up notability is that you're trying to drum up your playtime as if it makes you incredibly good, and that this is why 'L2P' is essentially your answer to every problem people have with the Mad Cat. This doesn't make sense because despite your playtime, you have not proven yourself to be very good. You're trying to use your 'authority' as simple proof when there's no authority to be had.

As for you crushing the old meta, and presumably us since you're asking if we're ready for it... uh, good luck? So long as you're running crap like this while saying it's just as good as a Timberwolf, I won't hold my breath.

R Razor, on 13 July 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

Are you really so naive or ignorant as to believe that because 30 or 50 or hell, I'll be generous, 100 of you high rolling "league" players spent between $400 and $1500 over the course of 3 years, there is no need for the casual player in order to keep PGI afloat?

It's arrogant, egotistical and moronic posts like this that contribute to the general dislike of you so called "top tier" players.

Most folks have far better things to do with their lives than spend 35+ hours a week practicing to get better at a GAME just so we can come on a forum and post about how great we are because we practice so much.

Also just wanted to quote this again, because by god is it true. You can't dismiss people just by saying you're better than them. You explain why they're wrong. Otherwise you're just being an elitist *****.

[Mystere]

GreyGriffin, on 13 July 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

What 'Mechs do you bring to a competitive match and why?

MWO has real competitions? Where? What are the awards? Do the medals contain real gold? Who are the sponsors? How much are the cash awards?

None? Meh!

[MischiefSC]

Uac20, 2xerll. even division of firepower between sides.


doubletap for 40, zap for 22. wait about 4 sec, do it again. Can tank either side and still have half its firepower. 2 jjs, 5 tons ammo, 2dhs extra for 3 full back to back alphas on caustic. If 90 kph, jjs and 60 semi-precise pts every cycle with over 1.4 heat efficiancy wont get the job done for you, the problem is you.

[Peter2000]

NOBODY I've talked to yet has thought that Clans are balanced (some are OK with them being broken, but that's a different question). And I pretty much talk to top-10 teams all the time. Not sure where Gyrok is getting this idea that the competitive community agrees with him.

[xXBagheeraXx]

MischiefSC, on 13 July 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

Uac20, 2xerll. even division of firepower between sides.


doubletap for 40, zap for 22. wait about 4 sec, do it again. Can tank either side and still have half its firepower. 2 jjs, 5 tons ammo, 2dhs extra for 3 full back to back alphas on caustic. If 90 kph, jjs and 60 semi-precise pts every cycle with over 1.4 heat efficiancy wont get the job done for you, the problem is you.

Ive gotten out of using the Uac20. that burst is just too dang long. fun gun but i like my damage quick and clean, that makes me stick my head out too long. Dont even get me started on moving targets. Balanced, yes. Interesting, yes. Just doesn't suit me.

[ShinobiHunter]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 July 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

Individual player skill has zero relevance to game balance.

Indeed, however it is impossible to determine game balance without considering player skill.

[Lefty Lucy]

ShinobiHunter, on 13 July 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Indeed, however it is impossible to determine game balance without considering player skill.

Well, you should always consider game balance in the theoretical framework of all opponents being the same skill level, but at the same time if a weapon is underpowered in the hands of a noob and overpowered in the hands of a pro, it doesn't make it balanced.

[Biaxialrain]

Please, sell your bullshit to the ignorant, I ain't buyin'.