364 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Adiuvo, on 13 July 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

You've never provided numbers or any basic analysis besides saying 'IT'S NOT OP' over and over again and saying dumb crap like 'it has a massive CT.'

I've already said what I'm about to say many many times. So I'm just going to copy over a post I made on the subject earlier.



Speed is the biggest thing here. Speed is what gives you versatility and is immensely powerful in both comp play and pug play. It cannot be overstated how important moving fast is. The TW sacrifices very little for its speed.

The point about me bringing up notability is that you're trying to drum up your playtime as if it makes you incredibly good, and that this is why 'L2P' is essentially your answer to every problem people have with the Mad Cat. This doesn't make sense because despite your playtime, you have not proven yourself to be very good. You're trying to use your 'authority' as simple proof when there's no authority to be had.

As for you crushing the old meta, and presumably us since you're asking if we're ready for it... uh, good luck? So long as you're running crap like this while saying it's just as good as a Timberwolf, I won't hold my breath.


Also just wanted to quote this again, because by god is it true. You can't dismiss people just by saying you're better than them. You explain why they're wrong. Otherwise you're just being an elitist *****.

You have never presented real numbers, and the burden of proof lies firmly at your feet sir. You claim something is out of round "because you said so" and due to this fact, you claim it should be nerfed.

Clan mechs are already nerfed...HEAVILY. Sure, they put out high DPS, however, they only have a few viable PP FLD builds, everything else is high DOT DPS. Which is a MASSIVE difference...

As for your claims of turning radius, let us have a look from Smurfy's with the in game numbers taken out shall we?

VTR - (XL360) 80 kph 51.59 Deg/s (90 deg Twist)

TW - (375) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (90Deg Twist -20% for S model Side Torsos)
ON1 - (375) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (90 Deg Twist)

SMN - (350) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (100 Deg Twist)
CTF - (350) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (90 Deg Twist)

WHK - (340) 71.2 kph 45.86 Deg/s (90 Deg Twist)
BLR - (340) 71.2 kph 45.86 Deg/s (80 Deg Twist)

DW - (300) 53.5 kph 34.39 Deg/s (60 Deg Twist)
Atlas - (300) 53.5 kph 34.39 Deg/s (80 Deg Twist)

Nova - (250) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (100 Deg Twist)
Cent - (250) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (100 Deg Twist)

SCR - (330) 106.9 kph 68.79 Deg/s (130 Deg Twist)
WVR - (330) 106.9 kph 68.79 Deg/s (125 Deg Twist)

KFX - (180) 106.9 kph 68.79 Deg/s (120 Deg Twist)
SDR - (255) 151.5 kph 97.45 Deg/s (110 Deg Twist)

ADR - (210) 106.9 kph 68.79 Deg/s (120 Deg Twist)
JR7 - (300) 152.7 kph 98.27 Deg/s (120 Deg Twist)

Notice anything? Anything glaring (besides the lights who are at a disadvantage in Turning and Speed)?

Amazingly, ALL THE IS MECHS AND CLAN MECHS HAVE THE SAME TORSO TWIST (relatively), TURNING AND SPEED WITH THE SAME SIZE ENGINE!?

WHAT? But Clan mechs are OP right?

Oh, wait, IS mechs can choose to carry more firepower over speed...clan mechs do not get that opportunity.

THAT is the balancing factor of the clans, THAT is also why the weapons are balanced considering their weight.

OMNI construction rules are the balancing factor...the TW might be in a pretty close to right place in terms of weight versus speed, however, it is absolutely NOT OP in terms of agility.

Add in the fact that the hitboxes on the TW are not great, nor are they terrible, and people are screaming bloody murder because no one has the balls to run a CTF with XL 340 with similar mobility.

Now, consider one of the most popular comp builds for the CTF...2xGauss + ERPPC, which is a total of 4T ammo + 30T Gauss + 7 Tons ERPPC + 1T JJ.

You cannot even fit 2 Gauss Rifles and ammo on the TW, much less the rest of that. That is literally 42T of weapons and equipment and still reasonably well armored to boot, and still mobile enough.

Also, if you come back with..."but the TW does 89 kph" one more time I call BS. The mech is STUCK with that engine. Whether you love it or hate it, that is what it is...and you will NEVER get the speed changed for the engine. PGI would have to change the entire coding for their engine formula for every mech. Also, consider this, if you change the speed on the TW, then EVERY OTHER MECH IN GAME will also become slower.

As for the hitboxes, they really are pretty average. The CT is just a tad smaller than the catapult, but what does that really say? You can easily core them out...if you twist well the massive ST will also get blown off easily.

The TW seems OP compared to other clan mechs because the DOT nature of the weapons makes it harder to take down. The PP FLD IS mech builds have zero trouble with them. Which is what you guys supposedly thrive in...so how is it that I am explaining something you already know?

Besides, in the 12 man pub queue you cannot take more than 3, private lobbies may allow flexibility, but you would have to sacrifice assaults that can carry A LOT more firepower to run more TWs. Even then Leagues have tonnage and Chassis limitations that prevent you from doing so if you wanted.

Now, I have set forth my argument, let me see your math...or can you not provide any real proof that the TW is OP as you claim? I am betting on the latter, as it seems to be the modus operandi of people such as yourself. Claim something you cannot prove because you want us to "trust you" or because you "think this is so..." even though the rest of us "simply cannot see it".

R Razor, on 13 July 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

I got that, what I am saying is that the game doesn't reward that, it rewards PP FLD over all else.........and that is an almost NO EXPERIENCE REQUIRED ability that anyone that can toss PPC / AC / Gauss Rifles onto a mech has. They don't need to play 35 hours a week to gain that. Experience in this game is more a matter of rote memorization, learn the maps, memorize them, go to the best points on each map, PP FLD your way to easy money. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. With VERY few exceptions, most games on each map play out exactly the same..........Mount Doom on Terra Therma, Mount Moron on Alpine Peaks, Mixing Bowl (or ring around the rosie) on Caustic, the lower city area and crashed dropship ridgeline on Frozen City, the Garage and Tunnel on Crimson Strait, the Citadel on River City..........Experience gained through playing on them dictates where the best places to fight are, and until you gain it you fight at one of the above listed locations the majority of the time. Aside from that, I don't agree that experience means all that much in this game.


I believe they would be less viable because of the game mechanics we have been provided, see PP FLD.

I can put up stupid damage numbers in LRM boats...but they are not OP...

Edited by Gyrok, 13 July 2014 - 06:39 PM.

[Roland]

Quote

Amazingly, ALL THE IS MECHS AND CLAN MECHS HAVE THE SAME TORSO TWIST AND SPEED WITH THE SAME SIZE ENGINE!?

WHAT? But Clan mechs are OP right?

Clan mechs are running XL engines, which can't die through their side torso.

[R Razor]

Gyrok, on 13 July 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

I can put up stupid damage numbers in LRM boats...but they are not OP...

Did you forget to put your helmet on this morning?? I'm not seeing anyone claiming anything is OP in here yet......

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 July 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

If thats the case I am even less impressed with the argument against 30+ damage Alphas.

Well, the 2 PPC 2 AC5 build has that 30 PP FLD. The PPCs can fire 3 times in 10 seconds, so that becomes 90 damage in a TT turn, without accounting for the additional RoF of the AC5s.

Doubled armor brings that to 45. Of course, that's not always concentrated to the same location, but it can be.

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 13 July 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

You have never presented real numbers, and the burden of proof lies firmly at your feet sir. You claim something is out of round "because you said so" and due to this fact, you claim it should be nerfed.

Clan mechs are already nerfed...HEAVILY. Sure, they put out high DPS, however, they only have a few viable PP FLD builds, everything else is high DOT DPS. Which is a MASSIVE difference...

As for your claims of turning radius, let us have a look from Smurfy's with the in game numbers taken out shall we?

VTR - (XL360) 80 kph 51.59 Deg/s (90 deg Twist)

TW - (375) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (90Deg Twist -20% for S model Side Torsos)
ON1 - (375) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (90 Deg Twist)

SMN - (350) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (100 Deg Twist)
CTF - (350) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (90 Deg Twist)

WHK - (340) 71.2 kph 45.86 Deg/s (90 Deg Twist)
BLR - (340) 71.2 kph 45.86 Deg/s (80 Deg Twist)

DW - (300) 53.5 kph 34.39 Deg/s (60 Deg Twist)
Atlas - (300) 53.5 kph 34.39 Deg/s (80 Deg Twist)

Nova - (250) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (100 Deg Twist)
Cent - (250) 89 kph 57.32 Deg/s (100 Deg Twist)

SCR - (330) 106.9 kph 68.79 Deg/s (130 Deg Twist)
WVR - (330) 106.9 kph 68.79 Deg/s (125 Deg Twist)

KFX - (180) 106.9 kph 68.79 Deg/s (120 Deg Twist)
SDR - (255) 151.5 kph 97.45 Deg/s (110 Deg Twist)

ADR - (210) 106.9 kph 68.79 Deg/s (120 Deg Twist)
JR7 - (300) 152.7 kph 98.27 Deg/s (120 Deg Twist)

Notice anything? Anything glaring (besides the lights who are at a disadvantage in Turning and Speed)?

Amazingly, ALL THE IS MECHS AND CLAN MECHS HAVE THE SAME TORSO TWIST (relatively), TURNING AND SPEED WITH THE SAME SIZE ENGINE!?

WHAT? But Clan mechs are OP right?

Oh, wait, IS mechs can choose to carry more firepower over speed...clan mechs do not get that opportunity.

THAT is the balancing factor of the clans, THAT is also why the weapons are balanced considering their weight.

OMNI construction rules are the balancing factor...the TW might be in a pretty close to right place in terms of weight versus speed, however, it is absolutely NOT OP in terms of agility.

Add in the fact that the hitboxes on the TW are not great, nor are they terrible, and people are screaming bloody murder because no one has the balls to run a CTF with XL 340 with similar mobility.

Now, consider one of the most popular comp builds for the CTF...2xGauss + ERPPC, which is a total of 4T ammo + 30T Gauss + 7 Tons ERPPC + 1T JJ.

You cannot even fit 2 Gauss Rifles and ammo on the TW, much less the rest of that. That is literally 42T of weapons and equipment and still reasonably well armored to boot, and still mobile enough.

Also, if you come back with..."but the TW does 89 kph" one more time I call BS. The mech is STUCK with that engine. Whether you love it or hate it, that is what it is...and you will NEVER get the speed changed for the engine. PGI would have to change the entire coding for their engine formula for every mech. Also, consider this, if you change the speed on the TW, then EVERY OTHER MECH IN GAME will also become slower.

As for the hitboxes, they really are pretty average. The CT is just a tad smaller than the catapult, but what does that really say? You can easily core them out...if you twist well the massive ST will also get blown off easily.

The TW seems OP compared to other clan mechs because the DOT nature of the weapons makes it harder to take down. The PP FLD IS mech builds have zero trouble with them. Which is what you guys supposedly thrive in...so how is it that I am explaining something you already know?

Besides, in the 12 man pub queue you cannot take more than 3, private lobbies may allow flexibility, but you would have to sacrifice assaults that can carry A LOT more firepower to run more TWs. Even then Leagues have tonnage and Chassis limitations that prevent you from doing so if you wanted.

Now, I have set forth my argument, let me see your math...or can you not provide any real proof that the TW is OP as you claim? I am betting on the latter, as it seems to be the modus operandi of people such as yourself. Claim something you cannot prove because you want us to "trust you" or because you "think this is so..." even though the rest of us "simply cannot see it".



I can put up stupid damage numbers in LRM boats...but they are not OP...

Okay. So we'll go toe to toe, you in an Orion, me in a TW. You have to put 80pts + on my CT, I have to put 60pts + on your side torso. Let's see who gets to the chewy center first!

You are comparing apples to apples there with XLs in both for the same speed, right? Of course, with the XL in, you don't have that AC20 in the side torso. I do have a UAC20 in my arm however. Plus 4 (or 5) energy hardpoints and 3 missile hardpoints.

To make it fair I won't take JJs, since the Orion can't. We'll load them with comparable equipment even; XL, Endo, FF. So we've got the same tonnage available.

Or however you want to do it. Just same engine size on both. Just to be sporting you can take your 375 as an STD.

I'll pick up premium time, we'll do it as a 1x1. However you want to cut it.

Not fair you say? Okay, how about a Victor? You got a DS, right? Load that bad boy up - Drop an XL 375 in it. You'll be a bit less maneuverable but at least it's closer to the same weight. That's really your argument, right?

1x1, TW vs Orion or even TW vs Victor. You just need to have something with a comparable engine.

Or is that 'unfair'? Okay. Call me sporting.

Load either mech up however you want. Whatever engine, whatever weapons, whatever loadout. Then we'll 1x1, as many matches in a row as you can take. I'm not even a 'competitive league player' by any stretch. I am however 100% confident that I will rock you up one side and down the other until the sounds of your mech exploding start to bore me. Want to go poptart? Sure, I'll load up ERPPCs and with better speed chew you at a range you literally are doing 1/2 damage at and I'm still hitting just shy of full damage. Brawling? No worries, UAC20 and 2ERLLs, or 4xSRM4As plus 6 ERMLs will absolutely crush any brawling build either can field.

Again. Absolutely. I'm not wanting the TW nerfed - I want everything else buffed. Your arguments however are facetious. 1v1 the TW will flat out hands down crush any mech even approximately in its weight class with even approximately skilled pilots. It will curb stomp them, then go bang their girlfriend.

1v2? Less reliable. In a 12man v 12man? Going to depend way more on who's in what, map, etc. that's fair to say of any build however.

For the tonnage though, 1v1, Clan mechs are, as a given rule, better. Especially with an above-average pilot. Faster, survives damage better. half the trouble people have with the TW is that it's fast enough to get them *into* trouble - ahead of their teammates and alone, outnumbered. If it were slower and people couldn't get out of position as easily it would for many people literally be a better mech.

[Navy Sixes]

Regarding the Timberwolf. It's users keep saying that it's "devastating firepower" is not OP.

Whether they realize it or not, this is a red herring.

I don't care if a mech that big can pack in a couple of PPCs and a gauss rifle. I don't care that it can be reconfigured into a LRM-boat or a Dakka beast. I don't think that's the problem, and while many may not realize it, I think a few of the Madcat defenders know for a fact that's not the problem. Notice how they all just sort of breeze over the most glaringly out-of whack aspect of the Timberwolf?

The problem is a 75 ton mech with JJ that can move and has maneuverability like a 55 ton mech. There's simply nothing else on the battlefield that match this mech's performance.

Since there is probably no mech more iconic in the Battletech universe (with the possible exception of the Atlas) I think PGI wanted to make it something special. It is that...

I'm not saying it's unbeatable. I'm saying that it's probably going to get the nerf-bat before it comes out for C-bills. If it doesn't, it is going to cause nightmares for class limits. Everyone will be jamming up the heavy queues to run one of these. I'm saving my C-bills already.

[Tezcatli]

I don't buy the excuse that skill is what makes clans do more damage.

[Adiuvo]

Gyrok, on 13 July 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

snip

Did you just toss torso twist rates at me like it was an argument? Oh my god dude. You really don't have a clue.

Clan XLs do not die with the loss of a side torso. This throws your WHOLE engine comparison crap out of the water. Seriously. They're not even comparable due to that. It's better to compare them to IS STD engines because IS XL engines are squishy in just about every mech.

Clan equipment weighs less. This allows them to not be too inhabited by running the large engines that they have. An IS PPC is 7 tons. A clan PPC is 6 tons. An IS gauss is 15 tons. A clan gauss is 12 tons. So far that's 5 tons saved with the same build between IS and clan. You then have to factor in the 7crit clan endo/ferro, which allows both of them to be used where only one can be used on IS mechs. More tonnage saved. Then there's the crit slot differences which allow clans to pack more equipment on. Specifically, 2 crit DHS vs. the 3 crit DHS of IS.

The hitboxes of the TW are comparable to a Stalker more than anything. Easily destroyed side torsos are a good thing. That's precisely what makes it easy to shield! A Stalker has easy to destroy side torsos. Are you going to say that mech of all things has bad hitboxes? Dear lord I hope not.

The 2xGauss 1xERPPC Cataphract is not a even close to a 'popular' comp build lol. I have no idea what levels of 'comp' play you're seeing this in. That stupid thing is a joke build made by Trevelyas, and eventually it got popular after he kept on taking it to JagerXII's stream. You know why it's complete garbage? You touch the back right torso once, with one alpha from even an Ember, and BOOM there goes the whole entire damn mech, and it's XL with it. That you even consider that thing any kind of argument is just... man. It says a lot.

I've never said anything about changing the speed of the Timberwolf. Obviously you can't adjust the speed it goes. I keep on bringing up the fact that it goes 89kph because this is a major part of what makes it so damn good. If you call that 'BS' then you quite honestly do not understand this game to level that your OP indicated.

You also haven't really explained anything to me. Instead what you've done is said some of the weirdest crap I've seen from a player in awhile, touting complete garbage mechs like this thing with a straight face, all while telling people literally to L2P, saying that casual players are pointless, and touting your skill level based purely on playtime as well as your competitive play, despite being on a tier 4 team, and acting like everyone who disagrees with you simply just doesn't know what they're doing nor what they're talking about. Meanwhile, as shown through this video your own personal piloting skill leaves quite a bit to be desired.

I mean I'm still amazed at your topic post... you literally think that L2P is an actual argument in of itself. It's just mind-boggling.

[Sandpit]

Adiuvo, on 13 July 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

So... why do teams better than yours and players better than you think that specific clan mechs are OP?

Also, while I appreciate that you guys are playing in at least Marik Civil War, and while I hope for your continued improvement... you and your team haven't done anything notable. At this stage it doesn't make sense to toss out playtime as if that alone proves your skill.

which has absolutely NOTHING to do with players jumping on the forums with "i lost, this is "op" stuff

It's funny though, instead of agreeing that in order to get better at anything, including video games, it's more "fun" I guess to say "Your team isn't very good". smh

[Mcgral18]

Tezcatli, on 13 July 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

I don't buy the excuse that skill is what makes clans do more damage.

Their lasers are longer duration for that extra damage, ERML aside and their ACs are also duration.

This means their damage is spread more, meaning it takes more damage to kill the enemies, assuming their targets are not in the underhive.

ERPPC and Gauss are the exception, while the IS also has ACs on that list.

[HBizzle]

Everything Adiuvo is saying in this thread. KTHNXBYE

[Adiuvo]

Sandpit, on 13 July 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

which has absolutely NOTHING to do with players jumping on the forums with "i lost, this is "op" stuff

It's funny though, instead of agreeing that in order to get better at anything, including video games, it's more "fun" I guess to say "Your team isn't very good". smh

No, it's not more fun. But when you're trying to use your apparent 'goodness' as your only argument, then I'll say stuff like that.

I really really really hate the 'L2P' argument unless it's plainly obvious that the person just really has no idea what's going on. Very few people are like that.

[Sandpit]

Adiuvo, on 13 July 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

No, it's not more fun. But when you're trying to use your apparent 'goodness' as your only argument, then I'll say stuff like that.

I really really really hate the 'L2P' argument unless it's plainly obvious that the person just really has no idea what's going on. Very few people are like that.

I don't see it as a "L2P" argument

It was a "You should really look inward on trying to improve your personal skills and be a bit more objective on why you lost sometimes"

It's just like players STILL trying to blame premades on their losses. (even though there are NO groups in the solo queue)

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 13 July 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

Their lasers are longer duration for that extra damage, ERML aside and their ACs are also duration.

This means their damage is spread more, meaning it takes more damage to kill the enemies, assuming their targets are not in the underhive.

ERPPC and Gauss are the exception, while the IS also has ACs on that list.

what is funny, is I see slightly higher AVERAGE damage.

But lower kills, and in no instances have I come close to the absolute wrecking ball scores on damage and kills I have pulled in Orions, Jagermechs and my Ilya. When and if I regularly start exceeding 1300 damage and 8-9 kills while PUGing, then I will consider Clan Mechs to have an advantage.

[MischiefSC]

Yes, but premades ARE the devil.

You do stuff. On purpose. to WIN. Miserable, selfish bas**rds.

You're supposed to stay in the pug queue. Playing gimped builds and trying to LOSE.

You should forum more so you understand.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 13 July 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

Yes, but premades ARE the devil.

You do stuff. On purpose. to WIN. Miserable, selfish bas**rds.

You're supposed to stay in the pug queue. Playing gimped builds and trying to LOSE.

You should forum more so you understand.

if you drop in the solo queue as a solo player than you get accused of trying to wreck the solo queue. (yea, that was an actual argument made within the last week or so)

[Tezcatli]

Mcgral18, on 13 July 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

Their lasers are longer duration for that extra damage, ERML aside and their ACs are also duration.

This means their damage is spread more, meaning it takes more damage to kill the enemies, assuming their targets are not in the underhive.

ERPPC and Gauss are the exception, while the IS also has ACs on that list.

Doesn't that mean that IS mechs cap at a certain skill level? And by default makes the Clan mechs for the "more skilled" players? For the same amount of skill a Clan mech will do more damage, provided that skill is good enough to take full advantage of weapons.

[Mcgral18]

Tezcatli, on 13 July 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

Doesn't that mean that IS mechs cap at a certain skill level? And by default makes the Clan mechs for the "more skilled" players? For the same amount of skill a Clan mech will do more damage, provided that skill is good enough to take full advantage of weapons.

No, it's the skill of the target that dictates how effective the Clan mech will kill them. The Clan mechs have the same armor capacities as IS mechs, so the TTK for the IS weapons remains the same.

Against the underhive, the additional damage of the Clans might seem overpowering because they don't twist and spread damage, but against a competent pilot those 4 damage UAC20 rounds will not all hit the same location, while the IS AC20 will.

Outliers being the Gauss and PPC, which is why the TimberTart is so popular and effective. It is a hotter, faster DS with slightly less armour.

Aside from that and the ERML and SRMs, their weapons all spread damage more than the IS weapons. So, the target dictates how that damage gets applied. A UAC20 will almost never apply 40 damage to a single location, and might in fact miss half the shots entirely if the target is moving laterally.


The only Clan weapons that are outright better are the SRMs, Gauss and ERML. Everything else is situational, and in some cases inferior.

[Gyrok]

Roland, on 13 July 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

Clan mechs are running XL engines, which can't die through their side torso.

Yes, they are...you all knew this from Day 1 that they were announced...and? For that, they pay for the inability to change engines...which for most is a burden, the Stormcrow is about the only mech that did not get a crap draw on weight versus speed and pod space.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 13 July 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

No, it's the skill of the target that dictates how effective the Clan mech will kill them. The Clan mechs have the same armor capacities as IS mechs, so the TTK for the IS weapons remains the same.

Against the underhive, the additional damage of the Clans might seem overpowering because they don't twist and spread damage, but against a competent pilot those 4 damage UAC20 rounds will not all hit the same location, while the IS AC20 will.

Outliers being the Gauss and PPC, which is why the TimberTart is so popular and effective. It is a hotter, faster DS with slightly less armour.

Aside from that and the ERML and SRMs, their weapons all spread damage more than the IS weapons. So, the target dictates how that damage gets applied. A UAC20 will almost never apply 40 damage to a single location, and might in fact miss half the shots entirely if the target is moving laterally.


The only Clan weapons that are outright better are the SRMs, Gauss and ERML. Everything else is situational, and in some cases inferior.

if you do the maths, ERML spreads more, too, and does less damage per second, over the same duration. That said, the range is huge. But like so many things, not near as huge as the underhivites make it sound.