364 replies to this topic

[Philldoe]

627, on 14 July 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

Just a short question, then why is it allowed to use hero mechs? What is the difference?

6000MC for a DragonSlayer. 6000MC is 29.99 USD. a single clan ala carte pack is 55$. That's part of the reason. There is also some debate on allowing Hero mechs in comp play but no one has taken the plunge and banned hero mechs yet. There are only 2 that are even worth using anyway, the Ember and DragonSlayer.

[627]

Philldoe, on 14 July 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

6000MC for a DragonSlayer. 6000MC is 29.99 USD. a single clan ala carte pack is 55$. That's part of the reason. There is also some debate on allowing Hero mechs in comp play but no one has taken the plunge and banned hero mechs yet. There are only 2 that are even worth using anyway, the Ember and DragonSlayer.

Isn't that a bit...arbitrary? Boars head is roughly 45$, is that one allowed? Just curious, why is 30$ acceptable and 55$ not? (And, to be precise, you get three mechs and not just one, so one timberwolf would cost you 20$ in that logic)

[Philldoe]

627, on 14 July 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

Isn't that a bit...arbitrary? Boars head is roughly 45$, is that one allowed? Just curious, why is 30$ acceptable and 55$ not? (And, to be precise, you get three mechs and not just one, so one timberwolf would cost you 20$ in that logic)

Yeah, the BH is allowed, but who the hell is dumb enough to use a BH in a comp match over a DDC? I can see your point, and I agree it all seems odd. Personally I saw it as a bit dumb to ban clan mechs from comp play but I don't make the rules.

[Bobzilla]

Why is every clan mech balance argument based around a single clan mech and a few IS mechs?

One vs a few.

So one clan mech is very close (even if better) to a handful of IS mechs, and clan mechs are OP?

I think the content in this thread alone proves clan mechs aren't OP but one may be.


Clan vs IS 12v12.
Discuss a larger point that actually matters, instead of some silly idea of 1v1 which has no point anyways.

[Gyrok]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 July 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

That's simply not true. The Timberwolf has the maximum amount of pod space for a mech of its speed and armor capacity. Can't get any better by going lighter or heavier *at that speed*.

Ahh, but the engine is LOCKED. You have no options for going up or down. Additionally, it has very few slots left after the Endo/FF and XL engines. Now, it truly is a burden in that regard. Imagine if the TW had the same tonnage pod space available as a cataphract...? Seriously...you think the TW is OP?? THAT monster would rule the roost hands down. PGI did not give us that option...and rightly so, because the chassis limitations are part of the balancing for all of this.

If you take nothing else away from this post, the bolded portion will send the message.

[Gyrok]

Adiuvo, on 13 July 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

I guess you missed it. That's OK.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3555976

There you go.

SHOW ME THE F******* PROOF!!!! YOUR POST IS MORE OF YOUR RAMBLING...SHOW ME NUMBERS....OR CAN YOU???

Come at me with something more than your ramblings and no metrics or numbers or useful data that allows a comparison. I have literally looked at all of it...and I can say...the TW is NOT OP. You evidently, either have and are not showing them because you know I am right, or have not and do not know what to look for thus are not competent to even make a comparison.

So, which is it? Are you hiding the facts? or are you incompetent?

@KyleWright:

I do not care one bit if you knew who we were...honestly. But you do now...

Edited by Gyrok, 14 July 2014 - 05:54 AM.

[El Bandito]

Locust------------------------------------Jagermech-------------------------------T-Wolf---OP.

Clan tech is not OP juuust yet. And skill is the most important, that is a given.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 July 2014 - 06:01 AM.

[Heeden]

Any more Underhivers in this thread watching this clash of the titans on Mount Tryhard with a big bag of /popcorn and faint bewilderment that slightly buggy and definitely unbalanced internet robots could foster such elitism?

[Fut]

Gyrok, on 13 July 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

Myself, and the average guys on our comp team for my Clan Wolf unit, typically spend something in the neighborhood of 30-35 hours per week dropping in MWO.

35 hours a week... on a game. I just don't even know what to say.
A huge part of me is quite glad that I'm not a "comp team guy", this game is great but I've got better things to do with my life.

On a good week, I probably get around 4 hours of MWO in - but most weeks pass by without my getting a chance to log in at all. It's slow going at this rate, but I definitely see a continual improvement with my 'skills'.

[KingCobra]

(Ok guys, something has been beaten like a dead horse and it just has no ring of truth to it...

Clan Mechs are NOT OP.

Skill is absolutely OP.

Myself, and the average guys on our comp team for my Clan Wolf unit, typically spend something in the neighborhood of 30-35 hours per week dropping in MWO.

Seriously...it is like a second full time job.

If any of you who drop less than 10 hours per week on MWO think you are going to be able to play even remotely close to the skill level of dedicated players, who play this game every moment they are not doing anything else...then you are diluting yourself and over evaluating your skill level.

This is not just twitch skill, it is also time spent in game, in mechs, dropping. Getting familiar with chassis, figuring out how to kill them, and kill with them.

So, while you may take L2P as derogatory, and in shortened form it may come off as that. However, the reality is...skill is OP. No mech is unkillable, no loadout is completely foolproof, and no pilot is completely unerring. Some just commit fewer errors than others.

So, next time you die and you think it is not fair...please sit back and evaluate what YOU did in game, and how that might have lead to you being in a situation where you were exploited for making a mental mistake.

-my 2 cents )

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH first off nice chest pumping self righteous post. Secondly why do I care???? The answer is I don't . WOW you think your so leet33 im truly amazed 20 more of your Clan Wolf cronies have not posted that your so leet33 or your group is so leet33?

[Bishop Steiner]

Philldoe, on 14 July 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

the Ember and DragonSlayer.

And that is the real answer, BTW.

While the TWolf, appears to be going to eclipse it once available, until then, the DS is still the king, I must assume? And Who in their right mind is going to run a "Comp League" then ban the king of the Meta Hill? Once the TWolf arrives, IF it remains unnerfed, then I would not be shocked to see someone possibly ban Heroes.

But as long as the Ember and DS are the cornerstones of the Meta, of course they will allow Heroes. Let's not be coy about that, lol.

As for the Twolf. I have honestly not found myself, 1v1 generally having much issues. Certainly if I run into you or the like in it, my win probability goes down. Same happens if you are in a DS. Probably the only time it doesn't happen 100% would be if you were playing SMM, and even then, your sheer amount of keyboard time still probably wins out (though probably not as handily).

That said, there are combos for the Twolf that might be borderline OP, and there are one or two for the DWolf. But to pretend they don't have plenty of weaknesses, like ammo in the arms? Sure they won't blow your mech, but you lose the RA or RT, and how long does the 1 ton left in the LA last you? In a Team, you can compensate, cover, and generally roll the other team fast enough it is not likely an issue. Same build PUG, unless you keep getting total scrubs, I don't see it.

Heck for a drawn out match 1 ton per launcher is cutting it close in and of itself (again, not an issue the way your teams roll usually) unless the other team just folds.

Biggest thing is, TBH, I could care less what the top 1% or bottom 10% do or can't do. End of the day, I worry about the 89% of the populace somewhere in between. And there, TBH, be it the Timbertart or the The SplatWolf, the only time I have ever had to worry about those builds, is when I see names like Phildoe, Curccu, Adiuvo, etc attached. And as noted, you could be driving any Meta build, and the result would be about the same. If you are running a 4-10 man, you could probably get similar results in Locusts.

So while I don't fully agree with the OP, I don't fully disagree, either. I can only base my outlook on my own experience, and 90% of the time, the Twolf is a tough fight, but the only time I felt "OMG OP!!!!!!!!" has been when I had a lance of them bouncing down my throat pouring PPC and Gauss into singled out targets.

That said, it seems all the issues and "OP" builds have been based on the TWolf-S, which I predicted would be a meta issue before intro. I'm curious, have you found Ground Based TWolfs as ferocious? I find them effective, but nowhere near as versatile, as jumping is king). If not, is it the Wolf, or is it still, the JJ, at the end of the day that is the issue?

I don't claim to know, but I don't think the answer is as B&W as either side of this debate is trying to make it sound.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 July 2014 - 07:14 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

But hey, on the bright side, we will get to discuss legit "Clan OP" across the board stuff soon enough, as I believe Paul is still planning to convert IS Autocannon to burstfire, thanks to forum QQ, and thus take away one of the most essential balance cornerstones between Clan and IS, PP-FLD (proliferation).

At which point, I have to decide whether to just give up in disgust, or sit back, grab some popcorn and enjoy the tears when people start realizing (those who will be honest enough to admit it) that pushing for that change was indeed a bad idea.

Right now, I'm leaning toward

[Gyrok]

Bishop, you raise, in my esteem one of the more valid side points.

Skill is OP.

However, mechanics like PP FLD and JJs are seriously a contributor to the issue. I concede, by and large, mechs with JJs are a far more serious issue than any single chassis in terms of meta.

If you go back, WAY back, when I first started playing I advocated strongly for screenshake on JJs. It eventually got in to be killed off by the meta crowd. Before I got into being competitive in MWO, and I saw that issue. Now Screenshake still occurs but magically the people who claimed they had vertigo from it are fine now that you can still shoot from the air? A curious coincidence indeed...

Edited by Gyrok, 14 July 2014 - 07:40 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

As far as I'm aware, being able to observe, then interpret and then act upon that is what makes people different. If your time in game theory was correct, why then on say WoT do I see players with over 20,000 battles who are sat at sub 400 rating?

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, besides thinly veiled epeen massage?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I still don't get why we are having specific conversations about the Timber Wolf or Dire Wolf. Fix the underlying game mechanics that are causing the issues. Then address the chassis on a case by case basis.

When you do it the other way around, nothing good comes of it.

[RockmachinE]

FupDup, on 13 July 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

The real monster boogeyman is instant, perfect convergence. We can combine a large number of weapons to form a single, devastating 30-50 point superweapon that pile-drives through the toughest armor. Mechs that can jump just so happen to be better at taking advantage of this than land-bound mechs, due to exposure time.

The problem with this is strictly from the gameplay prespective. Take instant weapon convergence out and you give slow players more time and fast players a shaft up the ass.
MWO players are... well they are not the fastest players around, coming from an action oriented FPS background I feel most people aim and react very slowly. I realize this is due to the specifics of the game, the tactics and methods, but... people here are still very slow. Take this out and you leave fast players, who can accurately and instantly target, components at a huge disadvantage and slow players a huge boost, since now the fast guy has to wait for his weapons to converge.

If this ever gets implemented I'm out.

And yes the standard ******* argument on these forums will be "this is not an fps", of course not but if I'm way faster then you I don't want some ****** mechanic forcing me to wait untill I can shoot, giving YOU, the slow player an equal footing and more time to aim with your ****** aim.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 14 July 2014 - 07:43 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 July 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

I still don't get why we are having specific conversations about the Timber Wolf or Dire Wolf. Fix the underlying game mechanics that are causing the issues. Then address the chassis on a case by case basis.

When you do it the other way around, nothing good comes of it.

Exactly this.
Yo-YO Nerf/Buff cycle has been one of the failings of MWO since inception.

Fix and balance your baseline mechanics and tech. And then tune the chassis around that. Shame it appears too late to truly do it right.

Louis Brofist, on 14 July 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

The problem with this is strictly from the gameplay prespective. Take instant weapon convergence out and you give slow players more time and fast players a shaft up the ass.
MWO players are... well they are not the fastest players around, coming from an action oriented FPS background I feel most people aim and react very slowly. I realize this is due to the specifics of the game, the tactics and methods, but... well people here are still very slow. Take this out and you have fast players who can accurately and instantly target components a huge disadvantage and slow players a huge boost, since now the fast guy has to wait for his weapons to converge. This has been done in many FPSs too, like having to prone or crouch for a while to get 100% accuracy and ALWAYS, this has given ****** players enough time to aim and players who are faster actually have to wait for the weapons to settle.

If this ever gets implemented I'm out.

And yes the standard ******* argument on these forums will be "this is not an fps", of course not but if I'm way faster then you I don't want some ****** mechanic forcing me to wait untill I can shoot, giving YOU, the slow player and equal footing and more time to aim with your ****** aim.

real skill is understanding and overcoming reasonable limitations. Perfect convergence only exists in videogames, and actually takes less skill to simply mash a pixel than when you have to account for variables.

Your entire post boils down to "twitch should be king". Twitch is one skill set. It should not be the overriding one. If you are really as good as you think, you will still overcome the "slow" player.

[Roland]

Quote

Biggest thing is, TBH, I could care less what the top 1% or bottom 10% do or can't do. End of the day, I worry about the 89% of the populace somewhere in between.

What we have seen in the past is that stuff which is used by competitive teams tends to trickle down to the masses eventually.

[Gyrok]

KingCobra, on 14 July 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

(Ok guys, something has been beaten like a dead horse and it just has no ring of truth to it...

Clan Mechs are NOT OP.

Skill is absolutely OP.

Myself, and the average guys on our comp team for my Clan Wolf unit, typically spend something in the neighborhood of 30-35 hours per week dropping in MWO.

Seriously...it is like a second full time job.

If any of you who drop less than 10 hours per week on MWO think you are going to be able to play even remotely close to the skill level of dedicated players, who play this game every moment they are not doing anything else...then you are diluting yourself and over evaluating your skill level.

This is not just twitch skill, it is also time spent in game, in mechs, dropping. Getting familiar with chassis, figuring out how to kill them, and kill with them.

So, while you may take L2P as derogatory, and in shortened form it may come off as that. However, the reality is...skill is OP. No mech is unkillable, no loadout is completely foolproof, and no pilot is completely unerring. Some just commit fewer errors than others.

So, next time you die and you think it is not fair...please sit back and evaluate what YOU did in game, and how that might have lead to you being in a situation where you were exploited for making a mental mistake.

-my 2 cents )

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH first off nice chest pumping self righteous post. Secondly why do I care???? The answer is I don't . WOW you think your so leet33 im truly amazed 20 more of your Clan Wolf cronies have not posted that your so leet33 or your group is so leet33?

Because we are not "l33t"...in fact, in game, as long as you do not insult us...we are the most welcoming and courteous guys you would see on the battlefield.

My issue is, I have an undying need to call it as I see it. The fact of the matter is, I am not going to sugar coat anything, and I am not going to stand aside and allow something as boneheaded as a chassis nerf for SYMPTOMS of an issue when the ROOT OF THE REAL PROBLEM, goes unchecked.

I am speaking my mind to prevent a hideous atrocity that would be the butchering of any chassis without an honest attempt to address the underlying fundamental issue.

[RF Greywolf]

Entertainment at it's finest!