364 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 14 July 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

What we have seen in the past is that stuff which is used by competitive teams tends to trickle down to the masses eventually.

already has, largely, here. DS Poptarting was the norm in the mid range for months, too. But TBH, it was not terribly effective in most cases. It is pretty funny that as soon as leg damage was introduced, I saw Poptarting outside the Comp ranks plummet as fast as Light Mech use, though.

I see plenty of people try to run those same builds, daily. Without the coordination, and dedicated keyboard hours of the Compies, though? Not really a concern.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

But hey, on the bright side, we will get to discuss legit "Clan OP" across the board stuff soon enough, as I believe Paul is still planning to convert IS Autocannon to burstfire, thanks to forum QQ, and thus take away one of the most essential balance cornerstones between Clan and IS, PP-FLD (proliferation).

At which point, I have to decide whether to just give up in disgust, or sit back, grab some popcorn and enjoy the tears when people start realizing (those who will be honest enough to admit it) that pushing for that change was indeed a bad idea.

Right now, I'm leaning toward

And here's another tidbit, if Paul does that and doesn't change Gauss or PPCs, not a thing will change.

The common denominator is the PPCs, which have very rarely been touched. Debuffed to TT heat, brought in line with short range weapon recycle and M/s swapped with gauss. And ghost heat, but that's not quite exclusive.

[RockmachinE]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

Exactly this.
Yo-YO Nerf/Buff cycle has been one of the failings of MWO since inception.

Fix and balance your baseline mechanics and tech. And then tune the chassis around that. Shame it appears too late to truly do it right.


real skill is understanding and overcoming reasonable limitations. Perfect convergence only exists in videogames, and actually takes less skill to simply mash a pixel than when you have to account for variables.

Your entire post boils down to "twitch should be king". Twitch is one skill set. It should not be the overriding one. If you are really as good as you think, you will still overcome the "slow" player.

Not at all. I love the tactical and strategic aspects of the game, but I do believe SPEED and REFLEXES should play a factor, they do so in the MWO universe and I see no reason why someone should implement something that completely mechanically narrows the gulf between slow and fast players. This happens in every game lately and its getting irritating. I don't want game mechanics to artificially cater to slow players, in any game! They do so in almost every title in the last 5-10 years. MWO is tactical and strategic, the pacing is almost perfect, put this in and you make the game slow and lame. I wouldn't mind if this was a HARD CORE simulation of MW, but it's not.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 14 July 2014 - 07:58 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Gyrok, on 14 July 2014 - 05:51 AM, said:

SHOW ME THE F******* PROOF!!!! YOUR POST IS MORE OF YOUR RAMBLING...SHOW ME NUMBERS....OR CAN YOU???

Come at me with something more than your ramblings and no metrics or numbers or useful data that allows a comparison. I have literally looked at all of it...and I can say...the TW is NOT OP. You evidently, either have and are not showing them because you know I am right, or have not and do not know what to look for thus are not competent to even make a comparison.

So, which is it? Are you hiding the facts? or are you incompetent?

@KyleWright:

I do not care one bit if you knew who we were...honestly. But you do now...

I already explained how the clans have more effective tonnage free despite their engine rating than IS mechs, due to changes in equipment weight and 7crit endo/ferro. What numbers do you want exactly? Do you want me to somehow numerically quantify how going 89kph is an advantage over going slower? Do you want me to somehow numerically quantify that a 2xPPC/1xGauss build that puts all its damage on a single component from 800m is better than some LBX10/AC20 piece of garbage? Do you want me to numerically quantify what makes a hitbox good and why it's possible to shield one side entirely with it?

You haven't given any numbers either, besides posting torso twist rates for some reason, as if IS XL engines and clan XL engines are even comparable.

Look dude, there isn't one thing that you can point to about the TW and go 'AHA IT'S OP!' Like I said in my earlier post, it's a combination of many things, ranging from model to clan mechanics. I've explained, repeatedly, what those things are and you've entirely failed to address them. Now you're just screaming 'SHOW ME THE NUMBERS' as of numeric based evidence is the only thing that matters in... anything. As if this game revolves around numeric based actions, more than anything.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 July 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

I still don't get why we are having specific conversations about the Timber Wolf or Dire Wolf. Fix the underlying game mechanics that are causing the issues. Then address the chassis on a case by case basis.

When you do it the other way around, nothing good comes of it.

At this point it seems like a nerf to PPC/ballistic will happen way before any TW adjustments anyways.

[Mystere]

Heeden, on 14 July 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

Any more Underhivers in this thread watching this clash of the titans on Mount Tryhard with a big bag of /popcorn and faint bewilderment that slightly buggy and definitely unbalanced internet robots could foster such elitism?

Well, I am watching this thread with great amusement. But Underhiver I am not cause, what underhiver does so with cava from Spain, cheese from Switzerland, all the while going for week 2 of a so far glorious vacation?

[RockmachinE]

I just need to point one more thing out. This is the only game forum I've ever been to where if you point one aspect out, people automatically assume you SUCK, HATE and are AGAINST everything else. Be it a mech, a game mechanic, a playstyle or method. Just because I'm focusing on one attribute of this game doesn't mean I hate or suck at the other parts of it.

I honestly don't understand this community one bit, people's egos are so on edge its like an electronic **** measuring contest for every post, its actually funny to watch, but boring, because you get the SAME discussion no matter what the original post was.

[Bishop Steiner]

Louis Brofist, on 14 July 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

I just need to point one more thing out. This is the only game forum I've ever been to where if you point one aspect out, people automatically assume you SUCK, HATE and are AGAINST everything else. Be it a mech, a game mechanic, a playstyle or method. Just because I'm focusing on one attribute of this game doesn't mean I hate or suck at the other parts of it.

I honestly don't understand this community one bit, people's egos are so on edge its like an electronic **** measuring contest for every post, its actually funny to watch, but boring, because you get the SAME discussion no matter what the original post was.

usually done only when I see someone post in such a way as to appear a little epeen centric.

[Mystere]

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

I already explained how the clans have more effective tonnage free despite their engine rating than IS mechs, due to changes in equipment weight and 7crit endo/ferro. What numbers do you want exactly? Do you want me to somehow numerically quantify how going 89kph is an advantage over going slower? Do you want me to somehow numerically quantify that a 2xPPC/1xGauss build that puts all its damage on a single component from 800m is better than some LBX10/AC20 piece of garbage? Do you want me to numerically quantify what makes a hitbox good and why it's possible to shield one side entirely with it?

I will just quote what I wrote earlier, as most probably missed it:

Mystere, on 13 July 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Well, the burden of proof actually lies with the ones claiming something is OP.

So do so and bring in lots of math. I love math. Include the complex equations you used. I love those too. And finally, bring in lots of simulations. I love complex equations presented as visual simulations even more.

And just to be clear, I want the following included in the analysis:

• chassis analysis, including all variants and IS/Clan configurability
  
• weapons analysis, including damage, rate of fire, duration, burst vs single-shot, weight, slots, ammo, impulse
  
• equipment options analysis, especially those that affect speed, agility, and heat efficiency
  
• dynamic models of how the above interact in 1 vs. 1, 1 vs. N, lance vs. star, and team vs. team encounters

Am I asking to much?

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 14 July 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

I will just quote what I wrote earlier, as most probably missed it:



And just to be clear, I want the following included in the analysis:

• chassis analysis, including all variants and IS/Clan configurability
  
• weapons analysis, including damage, rate of fire, duration, burst vs single-shot, weight, slots, ammo, impulse
  
• equipment options analysis, especially those that affect speed, agility, and heat efficiency
  
• dynamic models of how the above interact in 1 vs. 1, 1 vs. N, lance vs. star, and team vs. team encounters

Am I asking to much?

Should not be. I would assume any comp clan has all that tabulated and posted on their own forums already. I have already been assiduously assured that the Comps know all the variables, and as such are the best to decide how to balance things, thus this must be true, right?

[Mystere]

Louis Brofist, on 14 July 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

I honestly don't understand this community one bit, people's egos are so on edge its like an electronic **** measuring contest for every post, its actually funny to watch, but boring, because you get the SAME discussion no matter what the original post was.

What is actually funny is that, in the grand scheme of things, MWO is not even a blip on the competitive gaming scene. There are no real competitions, and by that I mean medals and trophies with real gold in them, sponsorships, endorsements, cash rewards.

So all of this excessive epeen waving is just hilarious.

[Gyrok]

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

I already explained how the clans have more effective tonnage free despite their engine rating than IS mechs, due to changes in equipment weight and 7crit endo/ferro. What numbers do you want exactly? Do you want me to somehow numerically quantify how going 89kph is an advantage over going slower? Do you want me to somehow numerically quantify that a 2xPPC/1xGauss build that puts all its damage on a single component from 800m is better than some LBX10/AC20 piece of garbage? Do you want me to numerically quantify what makes a hitbox good and why it's possible to shield one side entirely with it?

You haven't given any numbers either, besides posting torso twist rates for some reason, as if IS XL engines and clan XL engines are even comparable.

Look dude, there isn't one thing that you can point to about the TW and go 'AHA IT'S OP!' Like I said in my earlier post, it's a combination of many things, ranging from model to clan mechanics. I've explained, repeatedly, what those things are and you've entirely failed to address them. Now you're just screaming 'SHOW ME THE NUMBERS' as of numeric based evidence is the only thing that matters in... anything. As if this game revolves around numeric based actions, more than anything.


At this point it seems like a nerf to PPC/ballistic will happen way before any TW adjustments anyways.

Everything you post is nit picking advantages with no quantifiable representation for limitations...how about numbers of free crit slots for example...? How about the free tonnage for weapons? How about inability to move locked crit slots for Endo/FF?

You cannot sit and expound the advantages and not weigh the penalties...

The S timber wolf torsos cost you 15% torso twist range...that is a pretty heavy nerf...they also increase the heat damage you take by 10% and increase LRM/SRM cooldown...

They are not without drawbacks.

You cannot sit back and say it is OP for one specific reason, you have to view the entire picture. This piecemeal comparison is not going to get the job done...you have to look at everything.

[Adiuvo]

Mystere, on 14 July 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

I will just quote what I wrote earlier, as most probably missed it:

And just to be clear, I want the following included in the analysis:

• chassis analysis, including all variants and IS/Clan configurability
  
• weapons analysis, including damage, rate of fire, duration, burst vs single-shot, weight, slots, ammo, impulse
  
• equipment options analysis, especially those that affect speed, agility, and heat efficiency
  
• dynamic models of how the above interact in 1 vs. 1, 1 vs. N, lance vs. star, and team vs. team encounters

Am I asking to much?

With regards to the problem builds, notably 2xPPC/1xGauss on the TW, that has already been posted. Repeatedly. With regards to clans as a whole, that hasn't been done because there's no need to. Unless you want people to start proving that things *aren't* OP as well. Which is just silly. Then again so is you asking for 'equation' based evidence in a game that's primarily about positioning and not shooting.

[RockmachinE]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

usually done only when I see someone post in such a way as to appear a little epeen centric.

I don't mind, I'm pointing it out. But honestly though it also happens when I go out of my way to be objective, respectful and pleasant, that's why I actually stopped doing it. Might as well be an arrogant smartass, 80% of the community responds the same anyways.

Mystere, on 14 July 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

What is actually funny is that, in the grand scheme of things, MWO is not even a blip on the competitive gaming scene. There are no real competitions, and by that I mean medals and trophies with real gold in them, sponsorships, endorsements, cash rewards.

So all of this excessive epeen waving is just hilarious.

Agreed.

[Adiuvo]

Gyrok, on 14 July 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

Everything you post is nit picking advantages with no quantifiable representation for limitations...how about numbers of free crit slots for example...? How about the free tonnage for weapons? How about inability to move locked crit slots for Endo/FF?

You cannot sit and expound the advantages and not weigh the penalties...

The S timber wolf torsos cost you 15% torso twist range...that is a pretty heavy nerf...they also increase the heat damage you take by 10% and increase LRM/SRM cooldown...

They are not without drawbacks.

You cannot sit back and say it is OP for one specific reason, you have to view the entire picture. This piecemeal comparison is not going to get the job done...you have to look at everything.

The number of free crit slots and free tonnage for weapons is a concern. However, the TW can run the 'standard' builds without any concern for them. Same with locked crit slots. These things do cause limitations on the Summoner, which is part of the reason it's not broken despite it having arms that boost its rate of fire. However, even if it completely lost the ability to run PPC/Gauss for some reason, it would still be the best brawler via other loadouts by a large, large margin. It completely invalidates other mech chassis. We already have enough of that due to the existence of things like the Shadowhawk or Dragonslayer. We don't need more mechs like that. I don't want to see more powercreep in MWO.

The torsos cause a nerf to torso twist rate, not range. If it was range that would be a pretty heavy nerf, but rate isn't really due the TW's large engine. Also, it's 7.5% per side torso, not 15% flat. Heat damage isn't particularly relevant since it's so little assuming you aren't overheating to 120%. LRM/SRM cooldown is a good drawback to the torsos, but unfortunately that doesn't matter for the meta loadout.

This entire time I've been saying that it's a bit broke due to many things, not a single specific thing, so... agreed?...

Edited by Adiuvo, 14 July 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[Mystere]

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

With regards to the problem builds, notably 2xPPC/1xGauss on the TW, that has already been posted. Repeatedly.

Where? I don't recall seeing the kind of analysis I am looking for.

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

With regards to clans as a whole, that hasn't been done because there's no need to.

I beg to disagree, especially given the various "Clans are OP!" threads and posts/claims that are obviously prevalent since the Clan release -- some of which have been posted by people claiming to be part of the "elite" "top level" "high Elo" "competitive" "1%". These people should either put up the detailed analysis on which they base their claims or just plain shut up.

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Unless you want people to start proving that things *aren't* OP as well. Which is just silly.

As I mentioned earlier, the burden of proof lies with those who claim something is OP.

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Then again so is you asking for 'equation' based evidence in a game that's primarily about positioning and not shooting.

And which is why I am looking for analyses that include dynamic models on 1 vs. 1, 1 vs. N, lance vs. star, and team vs. team interactions. That should take care of the "game that's primarily about positioning and not shooting" bit.

By the way, the statement of yours which I highlighted above is extremely revealing. Was that actually intentional or merely accidental on your part?

Edited by Mystere, 14 July 2014 - 08:45 AM.

[Xarian]

Gyrok, I think you mean "deluding", not "diluting".

Diluting is when you decrease the concentrating of something by mixing it with someone else; e.g. beer with water...

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Should not be. I would assume any comp clan has all that tabulated and posted on their own forums already. I have already been assiduously assured that the Comps know all the variables, and as such are the best to decide how to balance things, thus this must be true, right?

It's almost ( ) like asking who is better positioned to talk about space travel, the "hero" astronaut who went into space, or the "lowly" engineers that built the vehicles, suits, and other equipment.

[Jon Gotham]

Louis Brofist, on 14 July 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

I just need to point one more thing out. This is the only game forum I've ever been to where if you point one aspect out, people automatically assume you SUCK, HATE and are AGAINST everything else. Be it a mech, a game mechanic, a playstyle or method. Just because I'm focusing on one attribute of this game doesn't mean I hate or suck at the other parts of it.

I honestly don't understand this community one bit, people's egos are so on edge its like an electronic **** measuring contest for every post, its actually funny to watch, but boring, because you get the SAME discussion no matter what the original post was.

Ironic, considering you started off by stating we are all slow and clumsy compared to you. You seem to think yours is rather long.
I'm fairly sure mechs are not supposed to have instant convergence. Having it enables you to make shots your mech can't make, because it's artificially been made to be able to do something it can't.
Anyone know if convergence was slower before?

Harping on about how fast you are and how slow we are, isn't helping you much. Considering, you ARE going to get MUCH slower as you age.....what will you do then? When others are saying you are sooo sloooow....?

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 14 July 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

Everything you post is nit picking advantages with no quantifiable representation for limitations...how about numbers of free crit slots for example...? How about the free tonnage for weapons? How about inability to move locked crit slots for Endo/FF?

You cannot sit and expound the advantages and not weigh the penalties...

The S timber wolf torsos cost you 15% torso twist range...that is a pretty heavy nerf...they also increase the heat damage you take by 10% and increase LRM/SRM cooldown...

They are not without drawbacks.

You cannot sit back and say it is OP for one specific reason, you have to view the entire picture. This piecemeal comparison is not going to get the job done...you have to look at everything.

you also are forced to load the ammo in the arms with any decent sized launchers), making it comparatively easy to disarm.

I'm not saying in the current Meta, especially with the Timbertart, that the Pros might not outweigh the cons, but I AM saying on quite a few loadouts, the cons are not hard to take advantage of. Except for when you are overwhelmed by speed and numbers.

Which to me, at least partially explains why I don't find those builds terribly OP except when I am facing a Comp team with them. And then, yeah, it's pretty frustrating. But I would say that 75% of the advantage is the team part, and the amount of experience and practice the Competitive player has. Certain chassis and builds do exacerbate that, though, undeniably.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

But hey, on the bright side, we will get to discuss legit "Clan OP" across the board stuff soon enough, as I believe Paul is still planning to convert IS Autocannon to burstfire, thanks to forum QQ, and thus take away one of the most essential balance cornerstones between Clan and IS, PP-FLD (proliferation). At which point, I have to decide whether to just give up in disgust, or sit back, grab some popcorn and enjoy the tears when people start realizing (those who will be honest enough to admit it) that pushing for that change was indeed a bad idea.

I would support the rework of pin point FLD for IS PPCs to that of the Clan ERPPC, since it is better for the overall health of the game. Perhaps 1.5 damage to adjacent section for IS instead of 2.5. Cause it always comes down to multiple PPCs+AC. As for the Clan weapons, they can still be further nerfed. Mechs kill each other fast enough already.

Reduce IS MLas and MPlas heat to to compensate. MLas deserves to have 3 heat at the moment. In fact, buff all the medium to short range IS weapons.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 July 2014 - 09:06 AM.