364 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 14 July 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Well, I did grab some andouille and sweet sausage which I'll be adding to tonight's vodka sauce for some great pasta. Oh, my bad! You were talking about a different kind of sausage.

I would kill to get andouille down here in Mexico. I need to make some jambalaya!

[Jman5]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 July 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

if you do the maths, ERML spreads more, too, and does less damage per second, over the same duration. That said, the range is huge. But like so many things, not near as huge as the underhivites make it sound.

That is simply not true. Clan ER ML does more damage per second of beam duration than the Medium Laser.


If at any point during the 1.3 second beam duration your laser misses or spreads to another component you STILL did more damage to that component than an IS Medium Laser.

[Mcgral18]

Jman5, on 14 July 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

That is simply not true. Clan ER ML does more damage per second of beam duration than the Medium Laser.


If at any point during the 1.3 second beam duration your laser misses or spreads to another component you STILL did more damage to that component than an IS Medium Laser.

And that is the only Clan laser that does more damage in a second than any IS laser.

ISML gets you 5
cERML gets you 5.38

All others do less damage, with the additional exception of the SL, which both have the same at 4.

[El Bandito]

You guys should give up on convergence. It is not happening. Not with PGI at helm. They tried it before and it was a failure.

[Kyle Wright]

Gyrok, on 14 July 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Will post it later tonight, at work and SS is on home PC.

I can tell you the names I remember from it though...

RU55IAN ROUL3TT3
Kyle Wright
Peter2000
Vasily Zeitsev

cannot recall if stretch or Ergo are in there...though I am pretty sure IpMagic was...will post it for you buddy, since I know you are dying to see it so bad

Good group, every dog has its day. I have a screen shot of beating HoL as well. Doesnt mean we are better then them, same goes for you. Until you are in our tier fighting against theses guys in league play and beating them you argument is invalid. Wont get into how many times weve smoked you guys aside from your screen shot. Also I remember several matches where our unit face Delta Galaxy minus you in the old 12's queue and proceed to progressively beat them worse and worse. At one point we lost teamspeak on a match in River City and beat the 12-1.

So go ahead Gyrok do me the favor call out GK, call out HoL, or SJR. If your team so awesome then why werent you invited to the SiG Invitational? Ive had enough of we are so almighty routines from you, and i hate to say this as I will take **** for it from my own unit, but you sir are a about the only decent player out of your unit of unwanted toys.

Edited by Kyle Wright, 14 July 2014 - 12:12 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 14 July 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

You guys should give up on convergence. It is not happening. Not with PGI at helm. They tried it before and it was a failure.

Most of us know that, despite it being the actual issue. Which is why many of us have wracked our brains to come up with viable alternatives, beside turning everything into DoT papercut weapons.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Most of us know that, despite it being the actual issue. Which is why many of us have wracked our brains to come up with viable alternatives, beside turning everything into DoT papercut weapons.

Quick list of options?

Global cooldown
Energy drain
Dynamic CoF
Enforced chainfire
Recoil
Real heat penalties
Increased ammo explosion chance
Removal of convergence; parallel aim points
Targeting computer overload

All of the above have issues, some are much easier to implement than others and many have collateral effects.
But, solutions none the less.

Better than ghost heat and magical convergence?

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 14 July 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

You guys should give up on convergence. It is not happening. Not with PGI at helm. They tried it before and it was a failure.

You are talking to the wrong player El. I am to stubborn, and old to just roll over and quit.

[Gyrok]

Kyle Wright, on 14 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Good group, every dog has its day. I have a screen shot of beating HoL as well. Doesnt mean we are better then them, same goes for you. Until you are in our tier fighting against theses guys in league play and beating them you argument is invalid. Wont get into how many times weve smoked you guys aside from your screen shot.

So go ahead Gyrok do me the favor call out GK, call out HoL, or SJR. If your team so awesome then why werent you invited to the SiG Invitational? Ive had enough of we are so almighty routines from you, and i hate to say this as I will take **** for it from my own unit, but you sir are a about the only decent player out of your unit of unwanted toys.

You know something, while I know that was a thinly veiled insult...I know when we run into those groups in the queue that are up for the meat grinder, my guys know that as well. While we are not there yet as a team, I see flashes of brilliance, moments where we beat teams we executed poorly against before. If we could just get the execution down pat, I honestly think we would be there, or at least be a run for the money every match.

As I said, we are not there yet...I acknowledge that...never said otherwise. The improvement is coming though, and I think with some of the things we are experimenting with, we will get there eventually. I have already uncovered some interesting tactics that negate advantages in several situations that could be used to take advantage.

[Jman5]

El Bandito, on 14 July 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

You guys should give up on convergence. It is not happening. Not with PGI at helm. They tried it before and it was a failure.

I agree people need to just drop the whole convergence argument and focus on alternative balance approaches that fit PGI's design philosophies. Otherwise you're just treading water.

In the past PGI has said they wanted to bring Pinpoint front loaded alphas down to no more than 30-35 damage. How do we align that with the current situation we have now with new clan mechs? If we're just going to throw that out the window, how are you going to improve the enjoyment for smaller mechs that are most vulnerable to those ultra-high, long range, pinpoint, FLD alphas? Or do we abandon that notion? Do we start the full-fledged power-creep in favor of heavier mechs by pumping out IS assaults with similarly high alpha loadouts?

It really comes down to what kind of game PGI wants to make. Do they borrow from their predecessors where big mechs ruled the school, or do they scale things back and try to create more space for lights and mediums?

Edited by Jman5, 14 July 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[Gyrok]

Jman5, on 14 July 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

I agree people need to just drop the whole convergence argument and focus on alternative balance approaches that fit PGI's design philosophies. Otherwise you're just treading water.

In the past PGI has said they wanted to bring Pinpoint front loaded alphas down to no more than 30-35 damage. How do we align that with the current situation we have now with new clan mechs? If we're just going to throw that out the window, how are you going to improve the enjoyment for smaller mechs that are most vulnerable to those ultra-high, long range, pinpoint, FLD alphas? Or do we abandon that notion? Do we start the full-fledged power-creep in favor of heavier mechs by pumping out IS assaults with similarly high alpha loadouts?

It really comes down to what kind of game PGI wants to make. Do they borrow from their predecessors where big mechs ruled the school, or do they scale things back and try to create more space for lights and mediums?

The direction seems to be things like the Mauler and other mechs coming...

I think many fail to understand...BT itself is power creep. This will happen, PGI can do it slowly, or in waves, or however they want...

That does not change things like the HAG40 being completely better than any other ballistic weapon for the tonnage, period.

Wait until you see streak MRMs or LRMs, or ATMs, or heavy lasers, Heavy Gauss, and all kinds of other crazy things that are yet to come (if the game survives long enough to implement them).

What is going to happen is each "jump" the tech will even out before the next one. Things like MASC and superchargers and other things will allow things like the Fire Moth to go 216 kph for short bursts, making them likely 2-3 times more effective at hit and run than any mech in the game.

You simply cannot change that...

I will say straight to your face, the current mechs are not OP.

When the Gladiator arrives at 95 tons with JJs and MASC going 86 kph for bursts packing UAC20 + beam weapons...you will all begin to know what OP really is...

That is not even getting into the really advanced tech either...Fafnir anyone? Devastator?

All things considered, I would say they have done the best job they possibly could have to protect lights/mediums to this point...

[Mystere]

Kyle Wright, on 14 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

So go ahead Gyrok do me the favor call out GK, call out HoL, or SJR. If your team so awesome then why werent you invited to the SiG Invitational?

SiG Invitational? Where can I get more info? Or is this another of those "tournaments"?

[Sandpit]

So is this thread about proving how good you or your unit is? If so, why is it in the general discussion section?

Seriously, this thread is like 5 pages of a couple of guys arguing about how they could beat the other and how the other guy's unit isn't awesome enough to be invited to certain tournaments.
and people try to tell ME how to stay on topic and/or constructive???

[Nightmare1]

Would that be the same Clan Wolf that a fielded a 12-Man against a Jin-Roh Lance and miscellaneous Pugs last week and lost after camping on Terra Therma (In all fairness, Pugs camped too!)?

If so, then it was a good fight when y'all finally made your drive. Came right down to the wire! We should organize a scrim sometime between our Units!

Great post, by the way. Captures the essence of what MWO is about: Skill! A bad Mech with a good pilot will always beat a good Mech with a bad pilot.

+1

[Gyrok]

Nightmare1, on 14 July 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

Would that be the same Clan Wolf that a fielded a 12-Man against a Jin-Roh Lance and miscellaneous Pugs last week and lost after camping on Terra Therma (In all fairness, Pugs camped too!)?

If so, then it was a good fight when y'all finally made your drive. Came right down to the wire! We should organize a scrim sometime between our Units!

Great post, by the way. Captures the essence of what MWO is about: Skill! A bad Mech with a good pilot will always beat a good Mech with a bad pilot.

+1

Do not recall coming up on Jin-Roh, though that does not mean it was not some of our unit. They have been running lots of 6-12 man drops getting junior officers experience leading drops. We are always up for scrims though, you can contact us anytime...link to the homepage is in my sig, and a link to our TS is on the homepage.

[MischiefSC]

@gyrok

As you have talked up the phract and orion vs the TW as they're the same weight class when we throw down you need to run one match in one 1v1 vs my TW. The hgn is 20 tons heavier. Still think a tw will win...

That is the issue though. This is akin to a Cent vs a Cataphract - and the Cent is still favoredfor the win. Make sense?

[Lightfoot]

It's amusing to me that players come to the forums asking for a nerf. That would never occur to me, I just go to Mechlab and build something better. What's weirder is that PGI gives them their nerf usually and so they come back in a week and ask for a new nerf.

[Sprouticus]

Looking at this thread, the only names I respect arguing that the clans are OP and Roland and Bag. Not critisizing the rest of you, but I dont have the history to trust your judgement.

On the other side I see a bunch of folks (includingg McGral who is in my unit) saying one of the following:

1) The TW is OP
2) The PPC/Gauss TW is OP
3)The real issue is PP FLD.


I personally fall into #2 and #3. The PPC/Gauss combo is the issue. Just like the PPC/Gauss or PPC/AC5 combo is the issue with a handful of IS mechs.

The Tw just happens to his a sweetspot and have the right config for this Meta, just like the 3D and DS.

the rest of the clan mechs are good to very good, not OP.

Why does it SEEM like other clan mechs are OP

1) people in lower Elo's not torso twisting/using cover/bringing AMS
2) There are really only 2 shelf mechs (Adder and Summoner), where as the IS has a much larger % of crapp-y mechs.


I am NOT a high Elo player, but I there are a significant # in my unit. When they state repeatedly that the only good clan build for competitive play is the TW and that the IS mechs can keep up for the most part, I trust their judgement.

[El Bandito]

Replace TW-S with TW-D and I'll be content.

Too bad PGI needs the moneyz and poptart TW sells like hotcakes.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 July 2014 - 01:03 PM.

[Philldoe]

Sprouticus, on 14 July 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

1) The TW is OP
2) The PPC/Gauss TW is OP
3)The real issue is PP FLD.


I personally fall into #2 and #3. The PPC/Gauss combo is the issue. Just like the PPC/Gauss or PPC/AC5 combo is the issue with a handful of IS mechs.

The Tw just happens to his a sweetspot and have the right config for this Meta, just like the 3D and DS.

The Timberwolf/Madcat would not be so OP if it were not for the mobility of the mech. PPC/Gauss in a Cataphract isn't really that OP, but if it could roll damage like the TW/MC, if it had the speed of the TW/MC, and if it had the hitboxes of the TW/MC then it would be the most OP **** around.

A couple of people in this thread fail to understand that weapons alone are not what people cry OP, it's a combination of all of these things that make this too much.

Another thing to note is that many of us are not crying about it because we got our asses handed to us with said mech, but because it makes it far too easy for us to do that to others. I genuinly feel bad when I take my TW/MC into the solo queue. Not so much the group queue as often times my small group has to carry. I try to avoid it in large group games, I'll run my IS mechs as practice.