364 replies to this topic

[Alex Warden]

Xarian, on 14 July 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

Gyrok, I think you mean "deluding", not "diluting".

Diluting is when you decrease the concentrating of something by mixing it with someone else; e.g. beer with water...

wow, and that right when i thought i woulnd´t find anything new in this thread

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 14 July 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

I would support the rework of pin point FLD for IS PPCs to that of the Clan ERPPC, since it is better for the overall health of the game. Perhaps 1.5 damage to adjacent section for IS instead of 2.5. Cause it always comes down to multiple PPCs+AC. As for the Clan weapons, they can still be further nerfed. Mechs kill each other fast enough already.

Reduce IS MLas and MPlas heat to to compensate. MLas deserves to have 3 heat at the moment.

mixed feelings, TBH.

Wish there was a way to work that into a convergence factor, the more you group, the more it "arcs". Because TBH, I feel that Arcing the IS PPCs really punishes mechs that carry a single, and to a degree, even a lot of Dual PPC mechs, like a K2.

That said, SOMETHING needs to be done to moderates SOME of the effectiveness of PP-FLD. I honestly find the cons largely balance the pros on ACs, and even Gauss, but PPCs, while supposed to be one of the most effective weapons, combined with a poptart meta and perfect convergence, it becomes a problem.

Just grinds my gears to introduce mechanics that hurt mechs trying to use things in a non-min maxed manner, as it just forces people to boat and overspecialize even more.


The Gauss and PPC DO need a longer cooldown, as does the IS AC20, though. the other ACs, I honestly find one their own, are not so hugely problematic. Heck, a single ac20 or Gauss is not a big deal, just effective.

Perhaps the more you fire of a single weapon type, the longer their cooldown becomes?

IDK, just throwing ideas out there.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 July 2014 - 09:11 AM.

[RockmachinE]

kamiko kross, on 14 July 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

Ironic, considering you started off by stating we are all slow and clumsy compared to you. You seem to think yours is rather long.
I'm fairly sure mechs are not supposed to have instant convergence. Having it enables you to make shots your mech can't make, because it's artificially been made to be able to do something it can't.
Anyone know if convergence was slower before?

Harping on about how fast you are and how slow we are, isn't helping you much. Considering, you ARE going to get MUCH slower as you age.....what will you do then? When others are saying you are sooo sloooow....?

Your misinterpretation as this being an ego boost or narcissism seems to be the problem. I pointed out MWO is slow. MWO IS slow and the players here are slower. There are many game types that are WAY faster then MWO and the players playing them are ludicrously fast and accurate relative to here. I didn't say I was the fastest, nor that EVERYONE is slow, I said the general populs here is on the slower side. Because the nature of the game is such, it attracts players that enjoy this type of environment. Players who enjoy a slow, strategic, meticulous and tactical approach.

It's not an epeen measurement, it's an observation, a sentiment and an opinion. It must have struck a nerve with YOU to perceive it as such. I could brag about my gaming history (or could I?), but THAT would be stroking my own ego.

As for speed and age, I'm 33 and I have yet to feel that I'm slowing down, in fact it seems to be the opposite. When I do become slower I'll take it in stride, accept it and conform my life to the fact that my senso-motoric abilities are lame, but I don't expect that to happen for many many years so It's not something I'm concerned with.

Also you seem to have missed the post where I decided that being an arrogant smartass on this forum is just as if not more viable then being normal. It takes to much effort and people react the same. So I'm an arrogant ******* .

Edited by Louis Brofist, 14 July 2014 - 09:27 AM.

[Captain Pee Sheets]

Adiuvo, on 13 July 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

So... why do teams better than yours and players better than you think that specific clan mechs are OP?

Also, while I appreciate that you guys are playing in at least Marik Civil War, and while I hope for your continued improvement... you and your team haven't done anything notable. At this stage it doesn't make sense to toss out playtime as if that alone proves your skill.

Are we the best out there? No, certainly not, and we don't claim to be.

Do we still stomp PLENTY of face in twelve mans? Yes, yes we do.

Is their a direct corelatioin between the amount of time we spend practicing/playing and how much face we stomp? Again, the answer is yes.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

mixed feelings, TBH.

Wish there was a way to work that into a convergence factor, the more you group, the more it "arcs". Because TBH, I feel that Arcing the IS PPCs really punishes mechs that carry a single, and to a degree, even a lot of Dual PPC mechs, like a K2.

That said, SOMETHING needs to be done to moderates SOME of the effectiveness of PP-FLD. I honestly find the cons largely balance the pros on ACs, and even Gauss, but PPCs, while supposed to be one of the most effective weapons, combined with a poptart meta and perfect convergence, it becomes a problem.

Just grinds my gears to introduce mechanics that hurt mechs trying to use things in a non-min maxed manner, as it just forces people to boat and overspecialize even more.


The Gauss and PPC DO need a longer cooldown, as does the IS AC20, though. the other ACs, I honestly find one their own, are not so hugely problematic. Heck, a single ac20 or Gauss is not a big deal, just effective.

Perhaps the more you fire of a single weapon type, the longer their cooldown becomes?

IDK, just throwing ideas out there.

I mean, the recent Gauss changes, not allowing you to charge more than 2 at a time is basically a response to heavy PP FLD.

And it's one I thought was easiest to put in. Make it so you can't fire more than 2 weapons that do 10 or more PP FLD at a time.

It's definitely not elegant, but it would get the job done. You'd still be able to do dual gauss, or dual AC/20 or dual PPC.

But you couldn't fire dual PPC + gauss, or dual PPC + ac/20, or whatever other combination.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 14 July 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[TLBFestus]

Having masochistically read through all 7 pages of this thread, I'm going to throw this out there and the Wind of "Leetness" will probably blow it right back in my face. I've been around a long time and in that time I have done very little to differentiate myself from the average player.

I probably log 3-10 hours a week. Many of you here do that upper end of mine in a DAY. Hell I actually spend more time on the forums than playing.
I don't pour over the mech statistics looking for an advantage in torso twist, hit box configuration or slots.
I don't tune my loadout to discover or join the current or evolving "meta"
I don't play to win at all costs, my KDR sucks and I know this without even checking it (almost did right then, but stopped at the last second).

All of these things make me a pretty average player, so I think I can provide a little insight from the masses.

I have no problem with people with more time on their hands to pour "job" like hours into this game. I own a business, have a family, and other interests (like my new motorcycle...OMG....she's HOT!), and as such don't have the fanatical dedication, and my parents basement to live in (sorry had to toss that in there...that's how I picture it and I know it's a bad stereotype, but hilarious), to be as good as many of you are. That, and I'm probably a minimum 10-20+ years your senior and my reflexes are way past "deteriorated" at this point.

That said, there are those among you that have that "L2P" attitude that I find annoying. Not everyone, but you know who you are, and some of you won't be able to resist telling me that based on my admissions I have no place commenting on this stuff. Thank you in advance for proving my point.

I play to enjoy myself. I'm not terribly concerned about FLD, DoT, and in general I think that Clan mechs are somewhat OP at this point, but not horribly so. I kill them now and again so that cant be that great. Skill is definitely a deciding factor in the success of any Mech, IS or Clan, or chasis.

What you guys are arguing about really isn't anything I get too concerned about as a typical casual player. I simply don't have the time to invest in it and as such I I don't get too involved. What the real problem is from my point of view is that even the current match-making system doesn't allow for is the large, organized competitive groups to be fire-walled away from the rest.

Despite Gyroks self-important claim that his "tier" of player is the financial backbone of the game, they are not. Neither are the players who never spend a dime on it. Both are outliers. The real audience for PGI is the casual player who drops small increments of cash regularly into the game. In their dribs and drabs of cash injection they vastly outspend Gyrok and the rest of the whales (I'm kinda a dolphin who has taken a vow of chastity at this point). Again, I am a casual player, and I'm not going to go on a hunt for the figures to back me up, but pretty much every F2P game lives on this.

Anyhow,....the issue is isolating the casual player from the hardcore, and right now that doesn't happen well enough. My buds and I are laid back. On a good day there will be 6 of us, so into the group queue we go and occasionally we win, often we get stomped by competitive groups of equal or larger size. We can't avoid it.

PGI gave the community private matches, but without CW they aren't serving their purpose of giving the hardcore players other hardcore players to fight with. Besides, although many of you will deny it there are significant numbers of you who get off on rolling pubbies and padding your stats. You can't help it, it's who you are and how you get your thrills. Please note I didn't say all of you...just some of you. Admit it and line up appropriately, nice high ELO players to the left, and sadistic b3st3rds to the right.

If they ever come up with a method, ie. HARCORE pool and Casual, that limits the high ELO competitive sharks access to the shallow end of the pool where all the mechs with floaties on their arms can wade around in relative ignorance and bliss, life will be good.

Don't get me wrong, I read a lot of your stuff and I find it interesting and edumacational, so carry on. Some days I just wish you weren't smacking us upside the head with your textbooks match after match.

[Roland]

Quote

Everything you post is nit picking advantages with no quantifiable representation for limitations...how about numbers of free crit slots for example...? How about the free tonnage for weapons? How about inability to move locked crit slots for Endo/FF?

Are you having trouble creating useful builds with the clans due to those restrictions?
For me, I've not had any issues with lack of space or tonnage, mainly due to the fact that the weapons are light, and the upgrades only take half the crit slots compared to IS mechs. For instance, even if a mech has both Ferro and Endosteel, it's still only taking as many crit slots as an IS mech running Endosteel... which I pretty much ran on every single mech I had.

In my experience, I haven't found any of the clan mechs really limiting at all in regards to space or tonnage. Indeed, the opposite tends to be the case, where I have the ability to mount a relatively large amount of firepower onto mechs which are moving quite quickly.

[Kyle Wright]

Gyrok, on 14 July 2014 - 05:51 AM, said:

SHOW ME THE F******* PROOF!!!! YOUR POST IS MORE OF YOUR RAMBLING...SHOW ME NUMBERS....OR CAN YOU???

Come at me with something more than your ramblings and no metrics or numbers or useful data that allows a comparison. I have literally looked at all of it...and I can say...the TW is NOT OP. You evidently, either have and are not showing them because you know I am right, or have not and do not know what to look for thus are not competent to even make a comparison.

So, which is it? Are you hiding the facts? or are you incompetent?

@KyleWright:

I do not care one bit if you knew who we were...honestly. But you do now...

Really dude, you should care because right now you are painting a bad image of your unit with your asinine comments about the game not needing casual players, how your unit is the **** based on how much money you all have spent, and your self proclaims to be buddy buddy with majority of the top comp community.

Strip your unit of clan mechs and you would fall into the slums. To this day other then the MWO tournament and from what i hear was a rough MCW, you havent done jack to prove anything about you and your unit. You only care about maintaining your OP TW, because that mech makes up for your poor piloting.

[MischiefSC]

I do find it ironic that in reponse to comments that the tw is op and punches above its weight Gyrok posts comparisons to 3D and an Orion. When called to a duel he offers take a 90 ton HGN.

Still going to rock you.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kyle Wright, on 14 July 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Really dude, you should care because right now you are painting a bad image of your unit with your asinine comments about the game not needing casual players, how your unit is the **** based on how much money you all have spent, and your self proclaims to be buddy buddy with majority of the top comp community.

Strip your unit of clan mechs and you would fall into the slums. To this day other then the MWO tournament and from what i hear was a rough MCW, you havent done jack to prove anything about you and your unit. You only care about maintaining your OP TW, because that mech makes up for your poor piloting.

well, just so long as you refrain from driving one yourself, then, as they are so OP, one would be remiss to use it?

[Gyrok]

Roland, on 14 July 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Are you having trouble creating useful builds with the clans due to those restrictions?
For me, I've not had any issues with lack of space or tonnage, mainly due to the fact that the weapons are light, and the upgrades only take half the crit slots compared to IS mechs. For instance, even if a mech has both Ferro and Endosteel, it's still only taking as many crit slots as an IS mech running Endosteel... which I pretty much ran on every single mech I had.

In my experience, I haven't found any of the clan mechs really limiting at all in regards to space or tonnage. Indeed, the opposite tends to be the case, where I have the ability to mount a relatively large amount of firepower onto mechs which are moving quite quickly.

The Warhawk, particularly is problematic, and the TW, in my experience, does not run some builds the Cataphract can nearly as well...you either sacrifice ammo, weapons, or jump capability. The Summoner does not do many things the Cataphract can, and nothing the clans have to date can do what the Jagermech can unless you go up about 20T in weight.

These are all just minor examples...

Kyle Wright, on 14 July 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Really dude, you should care because right now you are painting a bad image of your unit with your asinine comments about the game not needing casual players, how your unit is the **** based on how much money you all have spent, and your self proclaims to be buddy buddy with majority of the top comp community.

Strip your unit of clan mechs and you would fall into the slums. To this day other then the MWO tournament and from what i hear was a rough MCW, you havent done jack to prove anything about you and your unit. You only care about maintaining your OP TW, because that mech makes up for your poor piloting.

I have at least 1 screenshot prior to the PGI tournament where we encountered your group in the PUG queue and beat you, in IS mechs...THAT is when you found out who we were...

We just had lone wolf tags at the time.

Now, I am not painting anymore asinine a portrait of my unit, than you are of yours. I am telling it as I see it...and I have clarified on a few points other people seemed to take in the wrong manner. As for MCW, we were 3-1 in MCW. I do not see how that could be construed as "rough" by any stretch.

Edited by Gyrok, 14 July 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[Gyrok]

TLBFestus, on 14 July 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Having masochistically read through all 7 pages of this thread, I'm going to throw this out there and the Wind of "Leetness" will probably blow it right back in my face. I've been around a long time and in that time I have done very little to differentiate myself from the average player.

I probably log 3-10 hours a week. Many of you here do that upper end of mine in a DAY. Hell I actually spend more time on the forums than playing.
I don't pour over the mech statistics looking for an advantage in torso twist, hit box configuration or slots.
I don't tune my loadout to discover or join the current or evolving "meta"
I don't play to win at all costs, my KDR sucks and I know this without even checking it (almost did right then, but stopped at the last second).

All of these things make me a pretty average player, so I think I can provide a little insight from the masses.

I have no problem with people with more time on their hands to pour "job" like hours into this game. I own a business, have a family, and other interests (like my new motorcycle...OMG....she's HOT!), and as such don't have the fanatical dedication, and my parents basement to live in (sorry had to toss that in there...that's how I picture it and I know it's a bad stereotype, but hilarious), to be as good as many of you are. That, and I'm probably a minimum 10-20+ years your senior and my reflexes are way past "deteriorated" at this point.

That said, there are those among you that have that "L2P" attitude that I find annoying. Not everyone, but you know who you are, and some of you won't be able to resist telling me that based on my admissions I have no place commenting on this stuff. Thank you in advance for proving my point.

I play to enjoy myself. I'm not terribly concerned about FLD, DoT, and in general I think that Clan mechs are somewhat OP at this point, but not horribly so. I kill them now and again so that cant be that great. Skill is definitely a deciding factor in the success of any Mech, IS or Clan, or chasis.

What you guys are arguing about really isn't anything I get too concerned about as a typical casual player. I simply don't have the time to invest in it and as such I I don't get too involved. What the real problem is from my point of view is that even the current match-making system doesn't allow for is the large, organized competitive groups to be fire-walled away from the rest.

Despite Gyroks self-important claim that his "tier" of player is the financial backbone of the game, they are not. Neither are the players who never spend a dime on it. Both are outliers. The real audience for PGI is the casual player who drops small increments of cash regularly into the game. In their dribs and drabs of cash injection they vastly outspend Gyrok and the rest of the whales (I'm kinda a dolphin who has taken a vow of chastity at this point). Again, I am a casual player, and I'm not going to go on a hunt for the figures to back me up, but pretty much every F2P game lives on this.

Anyhow,....the issue is isolating the casual player from the hardcore, and right now that doesn't happen well enough. My buds and I are laid back. On a good day there will be 6 of us, so into the group queue we go and occasionally we win, often we get stomped by competitive groups of equal or larger size. We can't avoid it.

PGI gave the community private matches, but without CW they aren't serving their purpose of giving the hardcore players other hardcore players to fight with. Besides, although many of you will deny it there are significant numbers of you who get off on rolling pubbies and padding your stats. You can't help it, it's who you are and how you get your thrills. Please note I didn't say all of you...just some of you. Admit it and line up appropriately, nice high ELO players to the left, and sadistic b3st3rds to the right.

If they ever come up with a method, ie. HARCORE pool and Casual, that limits the high ELO competitive sharks access to the shallow end of the pool where all the mechs with floaties on their arms can wade around in relative ignorance and bliss, life will be good.

Don't get me wrong, I read a lot of your stuff and I find it interesting and edumacational, so carry on. Some days I just wish you weren't smacking us upside the head with your textbooks match after match.

I agree with some of this...

There are some things that I understand from your perspective...however, I can assure you...20% of the player base or less pays for 80% of the game. Being a game designer, these are things that we do not take lightly, as it is part of our livelihood.

Other than that, I am in some agreement with what you have said.

[Kyle Wright]

Gyrok, on 14 July 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

The Warhawk, particularly is problematic, and the TW, in my experience, does not run some builds the Cataphract can nearly as well...you either sacrifice ammo, weapons, or jump capability. The Summoner does not do many things the Cataphract can, and nothing the clans have to date can do what the Jagermech can unless you go up about 20T in weight.

These are all just minor examples...



I have at least 1 screenshot prior to the PGI tournament where we encountered your group in the PUG queue and beat you, in IS mechs...THAT is when you found out who we were...

We just had lone wolf tags at the time.

Now, I am not painting anymore asinine a portrait of my unit, than you are of yours. I am telling it as I see it...and I have clarified on a few points other people seemed to take in the wrong manner. As for MCW, we were 3-1 in MCW. I do not see how that could be construed as "rough" by any stretch.

Really lets see this screen shot big boy? And Ill point out how many of those people were in random HHoD Battalions. Congrats you beat a mixed unit, to bad you cant do it in any league play. So whats your point? Feel free to setup scrims with all the comp team leaders if your so good, maybe someone of them will allow clan mechs and still flog you using strict IS.

[Gyrok]

Kyle Wright, on 14 July 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

Really lets see this screen shot big boy? And Ill point out how many of those people were in random HHoD Battalions. Congrats you beat a mixed unit, to bad you cant do it in any league play. So whats your point? Feel free to setup scrims with all the comp team leaders if your so good, maybe someone of them will allow clan mechs and still flog you using strict IS.

Will post it later tonight, at work and SS is on home PC.

I can tell you the names I remember from it though...

RU55IAN ROUL3TT3
Kyle Wright
Peter2000
Vasily Zeitsev

cannot recall if stretch or Ergo are in there...though I am pretty sure IpMagic was...will post it for you buddy, since I know you are dying to see it so bad

Edited by Gyrok, 14 July 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 July 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

mixed feelings, TBH.

Wish there was a way to work that into a convergence factor, the more you group, the more it "arcs". Because TBH, I feel that Arcing the IS PPCs really punishes mechs that carry a single, and to a degree, even a lot of Dual PPC mechs, like a K2.

That said, SOMETHING needs to be done to moderates SOME of the effectiveness of PP-FLD. I honestly find the cons largely balance the pros on ACs, and even Gauss, but PPCs, while supposed to be one of the most effective weapons, combined with a poptart meta and perfect convergence, it becomes a problem.

Just grinds my gears to introduce mechanics that hurt mechs trying to use things in a non-min maxed manner, as it just forces people to boat and overspecialize even more.


The Gauss and PPC DO need a longer cooldown, as does the IS AC20, though. the other ACs, I honestly find one their own, are not so hugely problematic. Heck, a single ac20 or Gauss is not a big deal, just effective.

Perhaps the more you fire of a single weapon type, the longer their cooldown becomes?

IDK, just throwing ideas out there.

Yeah I'm with Bishop. Though I don't want to see front loaded damage go away, I DO want to see some nerfing of convergence. It just ain't right that we can hit a dime with 2-4 Auto Cannons at 400+ meters.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 July 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Yeah I'm with Bishop. Though I don't want to see front loaded damage go away, I DO want to see some nerfing of convergence. It just ain't right that we can hit a dime with 2-4 Auto Cannons at 400+ meters.

As a major proponent of nerfing the holy living s**t out of ppfld I will say that i would dramatically prefer some sort of convergence fix instead. The nature of hsr and latency being what they are however I dont know if there is a viable way to do that.

Hence the solution of dot.

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 14 July 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

As a major proponent of nerfing the holy living s**t out of ppfld I will say that i would dramatically prefer some sort of convergence fix instead. The nature of hsr and latency being what they are however I dont know if there is a viable way to do that.

Hence the solution of dot.

More spread is all that's needed.

Multiple ways to go about doing that.

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 July 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Yeah I'm with Bishop. Though I don't want to see front loaded damage go away, I DO want to see some nerfing of convergence. It just ain't right that we can hit a dime with 2-4 Auto Cannons at 400+ meters.

MischiefSC, on 14 July 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

As a major proponent of nerfing the holy living s**t out of ppfld I will say that i would dramatically prefer some sort of convergence fix instead. The nature of hsr and latency being what they are however I dont know if there is a viable way to do that.

Hence the solution of dot.

I say: Away with convergence! Let each and every non-missile torso and head weapon fire straight relative to one reticule and have arm weapons follow the second reticule and be set at a fixed convergence that can be manually adjusted in-game or out.

Alternatively, also make all head and torso weapons be set at a fixed convergence that can also be manually adjusted.

That should make aiming take a little bit more skill.

Edited by Mystere, 14 July 2014 - 11:37 AM.

[Gyrok]

Actually, they could just implement true ballistic trajectories which would make rounds hit high at X range, and spot on at Y range and low anything past that unless you compensate for the trajectory.

Now, that does not compensate for PPCs...however, it does compensate for Gauss/ACs

[Lucky Strongarm]

Gyrok, on 13 July 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

...dedicated players, who play this game every moment they are not doing anything else...

Then I'm a "dedicated player" since I am always doing something else, when I'm not playing Mechwarrior Online.

Gyrok, on 13 July 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

Myself, and the average guys on our comp team for my Clan Wolf unit, typically spend something in the neighborhood of 30-35 hours per week dropping in MWO.

Seriously...it is like a second full time job.

If any of you who drop less than 10 hours per week on MWO think you are going to be able to play even remotely close to the skill level of dedicated players, who play this game every moment they are not doing anything else...then you are diluting yourself and over evaluating your skill level.

If such is the case, I hope, for the sake of myself and my family, and all things reasonable and productive, that I always lose to you on the battlefield, every time. There are many skills in this life worth considerable time to perfect. Piloting imaginary internet robots is not among them.

So I'll keep my boogeyman perfect convergence, thank you very much.