364 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Sprouticus, on 15 July 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

One additional factor that makes player skill so important is the PPc spread mechanism for clan ERPPC's. If you hit someone in the arm, you lose 16% of the damage with that PPC.

Again, minor compared to other factors, but another consideraiton in the equation


Looking at the pros and cons on the TW vs DS

PRO's
XL engine provides extra speed and twist
range advanatge
damage advantage (somewhat mitigated by PPC spread)
no min range on PPC's
better heat disipation somewhat offsets the extra heat of the ERPPC
Heavy slot in MM

CON's
low slung arms make shield arm less effective
heat is significantly higher


Honeslty, the DS vs TW is a pretty close thing IMO. I am just trying to compare apples to apples here. The DS is obviously bigger, and it takes an assault slot in 4x3, but overall I think they are relatively close all other things being equal.


At the end of the day, BOTH of those would be preferable in Comp play to other 75 or 80 ton mechs simply for their hardpoints and PP FLD.

also once in combat range, the speed is far less the factor, once actually engaged, as it is close enough that one cannot simply run circles around the other, as if we were comparing a TW vs DW or HGN. And even with a fragile XL, the arm hitboxes make it very easy to shelter that XL. And some, while much slower, eschew the XL altogether (for a still decent 67 kph, again, not a huge disadvantage is grouped together.

All said, the TW is better than a DS. But in equal hands, from what I see it's much closer to a 60/40 split, that the 90/10 some individuals are trying to paint it. It would certainly have been even closer pre-nerf. (Thanks for that Paul, really.... it has helped the game, SO much)

[Gyrok]

Rivalries always make life interesting, and if the road to being better was easy, everyone would be better all the time.

As for the formulations...

I have some similar experience that disputes your claim. My highest KDR is actually not in a TW or DS...it comes in a HGN and a DW, that is post nerfs to the HGN by the way. I also have about 3 times as many matches played in highlanders. I am getting to where the DW is catching up to some of my more heavily played IS mechs as well and it shows to be MY best mech of the bunch.

Something you are not considering is that some players naturally fit some mechs better than others. For example, one of our blood named warriors is good in nearly anything...but you put him in a CTF or TW and he REALLY shines...put him in a Jager or something else...not so much.

So, there is something to be said for a mech fitting a person as much as there is for the other points raised as well. (My CTF KDR is actually higher than my TW KDR for the record as well...though I average more damage in the TW, that includes meta and non meta builds on both chassis)

Edited by Gyrok, 15 July 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[Philldoe]

Gyrok, on 15 July 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

LOL just what shame is that? We are running lots of training drops in pub 12s and sure our bondsman get rolled sometimes, same as anyone else. We also have inexperienced drop commanders getting experience to improve the clan as a whole.

Now last night HoL rolled our bondsmen in the pub queue 12-1 or something. They wanted to scrim, and I grabbed my comp players who were on last night and we ran 4 drops against them. We got caught out of position once and lost pretty roughly in one match, but other than that I think we put up a good fight and had several close games. They did not rickroll us like they expected. We still lost, but Adiuvo, heim and those guys now know that our comp team is not a joke, nor is it who is typically dropping when you see us in the pub queue. After that, several of our guys went to bed, and we started training in pub queue again. We ran into SJR and got beat. We really had good position there but poor execution (again, training players). So that being said, I am happy with our progress. We are not where I want to be yet, but we are getting there.

Schopenhauer, on 15 July 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

This is a lie. We still think your a joke.

Gyrok, on 15 July 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

Considering that you probably roll many comp 12 mans much worse than the matches we had, that is your prerogative to think so. However, we were not the rickroll you thought. Even you have to admit that...some of you admitted as much in chat last night.

Yeah, the others probably weren't bringing their A game to those fights. You generally have to be one of the top 4-5 teams before we actually take a fight seriously. Hell I'd be willing to bet half the people on the HoL side weren't actually IN HoL.

So yes, Schope put it perfectly. We still think you are a joke.

[Demoncard]

Philldoe, on 15 July 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

We still think you are a joke.

The quality of this thread just gets worse and worse.

[Koniks]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

#s

This analysis also needs to account for heat sinks, heat management, the C-ERPPC damage mechanic, and range. It would be useful to simulate several volleys, as well.

Because of heat, isn't the optimal Inner Sphere loadout 1xPPC, 1xERPPC? And likewise, isn't the optimal ammo load 3+ tons of ammo so that you get at least another 30 seconds of 25-30 point converged shots?

2xCERPPC also has a slight range bonus over the IS PPC+ERPPC combo but it's offset by the heat which limits the number of full strikes it can fire. The arc mechanic also makes it somewhat more forgiving for imprecise aim which can help destroy targeted components faster.

[mongo2006]

Adiuvo, on 13 July 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

So... why do teams better than yours and players better than you think that specific clan mechs are OP?

Also, while I appreciate that you guys are playing in at least Marik Civil War, and while I hope for your continued improvement... you and your team haven't done anything notable. At this stage it doesn't make sense to toss out playtime as if that alone proves your skill.

I'll answer this question.. because you don't know ****!! Delta is the best region of the Wolf Clan.
As far as other better squads I'm SURE you refer to IS teams.. It is the job of every IS player and team to ***** about Clan tech as much as possible. They need Clan tech to be as weak as possible.. So moan on until Clan tech is as weak as a feather duster.. I'll tickle you to death.

[Adiuvo]

mongo2006, on 15 July 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

I'll answer this question.. because you don't know ****!! Delta is the best region of the Wolf Clan.
As far as other better squads I'm SURE you refer to IS teams.. It is the job of every IS player and team to ***** about Clan tech as much as possible. They need Clan tech to be as weak as possible.. So moan on until Clan tech is as weak as a feather duster.. I'll tickle you to death.

Golden Keshik is Clan Wolf. Though I suppose you could be talking about actually calling themselves Clan Wolf... in which case who cares about a name? >_>

I'm also not referring to IS teams. I'm just referring to *top teams. Top teams aren't currently sticking themselves under one banner. Heck, if you really wanted to you could call them clanners since Lords plays under Clan Jade Falcon and Steel Jaguars plays under Clan Smoke Jaguar.

Also other Lords people... stop being {Richard Cameron}. Thx. We've already played against them and beat them with only 6 starters and not even a full HoL team. That says enough.

Edited by Adiuvo, 15 July 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[Mystere]

Philldoe, on 15 July 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

So yes, Schope put it perfectly. We still think you are a joke.

Just when the discourse was improving a bit, one of the so-called "elite" "high Elo" "top level" "competitive" players chimes in to ruin things.

Edited by Mystere, 15 July 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[Orbit Rain]

Gyrok, on 14 July 2014 - 11:08 PM, said:

More cocktail napkin math...

Indeed, and I said as much, and yet my math is accurate and true, whereas yours is not. No Orion has the same twist-rate as a Timberwolf.

Gyrok, on 14 July 2014 - 11:08 PM, said:

How about with ballistic loadouts and PPCs? Considering the meta cares nothing for LRMs and begrudgingly accepts SRMs as a BACKUP weapon.

There are many many many loadouts/examples. You've made the claim in this thread that TW's are *not* OP, it's on you to prove it, not me. There just isn't an Orion loadout that matches a Timberwolf's. Your argument solely using torso-twist is not just laughable, it's also fallacious. You need more maths to sway me! Come on engineer! As I said, ton-for ton the TW just outclasses the ON1, "more powerful" or "overpowered" is just a semantics game, just a subjective question as to what degree....Slipping off a 75 ton IS mech also makes a subjective argument in my mind. Even adding a hypothetical JJ to an ON1, you still have so many factors....that aren't torso-twist...that make a TW better.

Gyrok, on 14 July 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

As for MCW, we were 3-1 in MCW. I do not see how that could be construed as "rough" by any stretch.

What three teams did you beat? The results-spreadsheet is a bit confusing to me.

Gyrok, on 15 July 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

Rivalries always make life interesting, and if the road to being better was easy, everyone would be better all the time.

I get the feeling that this is what this thread has turned out...to be about. With you at some point trying to gin up some rivalry to get known...

[Gyrok]

Adiuvo, on 15 July 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Golden Keshik is Clan Wolf. Though I suppose you could be talking about actually calling themselves Clan Wolf... in which case who cares about a name? >_>

I'm also not referring to IS teams. I'm just referring to IS. Top teams aren't currently sticking themselves under one banner. Heck, if you really wanted to you could call them clanners since Lords plays under Clan Jade Falcon and Steel Jaguars plays under Clan Smoke Jaguar.

Also other Lords people... stop being {Richard Cameron}. Thx. We've already played against them and beat them with only 6 starters and not even a full HoL team. That says enough.

We are certainly open to more scrims...hit me up anytime you see us in the queue. May not always be able to field the comp team though...Thurs night and fri/sat afternoons are good though...what you fought was mostly the comp team...we were actually short 2 preferred light pilots (EU time zone for them)...though not sure it would have drastically changed much...

Edited by Gyrok, 15 July 2014 - 09:51 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Gyrok, on 15 July 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

We are certainly open to more scrims...hit me up anytime you see us in the queue. May not always be able to field the comp team though...Thurs night and fri/sat afternoons are good though...what you fought was mostly the comp team...we were actually short 2 preferred light pilots (EU time zone for them)...though not sure it would have drastically changed much...

I'm always on Mercstar as well. We only have one practice a week though, Tuesdays at 6pm PST. Our comp matches also tend to be scheduled then, such as today, so we may not always be free but it's not like they always happen then.

[Gyrok]

Orbit Rain, on 15 July 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

[/size]
Indeed, and I said as much, and yet my math is accurate and true, whereas yours is not. No Orion has the same twist-rate as a Timberwolf.


There are many many many loadouts/examples. You've made the claim in this thread that TW's are *not* OP, it's on you to prove it, not me. There just isn't an Orion loadout that matches a Timberwolf's. Your argument solely using torso-twist is not just laughable, it's also fallacious. You need more maths to sway me! Come on engineer! As I said, ton-for ton the TW just outclasses the ON1, "more powerful" or "overpowered" is just a semantics game, just a subjective question as to what degree....Slipping off a 75 ton IS mech also makes a subjective argument in my mind. Even adding a hypothetical JJ to an ON1, you still have so many factors....that aren't torso-twist...that make a TW better.


What three teams did you beat? The results-spreadsheet is a bit confusing to me.


I get the feeling that this is what this thread has turned out...to be about. With you at some point trying to gin up some rivalry to get known...

Actually, considering you are the one lobbying to change what is existing, I find the burden of proof to be on you sir...

That is confusing because it does not show the "pirate" results...only the main factions...

We joined in turn 3 and only fought a house unit in the last turn (turn 6). Unfortunately, for the last match, due to scheduling we were not running the regular group, and that matchup was the 1 loss I was referring to. We won every pirate match we had...

Edited by Gyrok, 15 July 2014 - 10:46 AM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

lpmagic, on 14 July 2014 - 10:05 PM, said:

Don't blemish yourself further by threatening people, if you guys are a fledgling group, you should be looking for friends in the competitive scene, you truly only get better by playing up the ladder. And things like this do not lend themselves towards making friends.

And Alwrath? I'm sure it will be a glorious reunion when you try to headshot Kyle, that should be a hoot, cause I'm pretty sure I'll be there when the attempt goes down, I may be a horrible pilot and unable to help, but I'm sure someone will jump In to save poor Kyle, just never mind me over in the corner cowering.

way to take things wayyyyyyyyy past where they needed to be lulz

see ya in the funny papers......

LOL. Im not threatening anyone. There is nothing more honorable than to seek out enemies on the battlefield who say derogatory comments about your unit, especially when they dont have a clue. Are you saying your unit supports trash talking and putting people down in chat? That seems like a great way to make friends there chief *sarcasm*

I am merely defending my honor and the honor of my unit, maybe you and Kyle Write should think before you speak against the " big boys " as he put it.

Edited by Alwrath, 15 July 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Kyle Wright, on 15 July 2014 - 12:08 AM, said:

Got no problem letting the angry mob hunt me down as the team dissects your team mech by mech. Far as the clan/is mechs I wasn't directing you strictly but more of a every time I've seen your team lately it's Timberwolf Timberwolf... oh wait what's that a timberwolf, stormcrow and I think once a Victor which I assume was you perhaps?

As far as BSK was a good team, liked the paint jobs, and was sorry to see them go the way of the dodo bird.

I am far from angry sir. And being a tactician in this game I wouldent be stupid enough to zerg you, especially in a comp match. But karma has a way of getting back to you, and one day ill have the opportunity to defend the honor of my clan against a trash talker like you.

[Praehotec8]

NeoCodex, on 15 July 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

Yep, did not read the 13 pages, just wanted to say that I agree with OP and like this point of view. Can anyone do a tl;dr on the 13 pages?

Side 1 (OP and supporters): "Skill is what really matters! Present me hard evidence that clan mechs are OP, or go home noobs!"

Side 2 (The "elite" of MWO): "You and your puny clan are not in the ranks of the elite, therefore you have no merit!. We say the timberwolf is OP, and we know the game better than anyone else, so it is, noobs!"

Side 3 (the duelists): "We'll settle this on the battlefield. Bring your, x/y/z mech, and I'll bring my TBR!"

It goes on and on, and a few people have made good points on both sides, but that's the gist of the bulk of the pages.

[Jon Gotham]

Son: Father, what are those things over there-swaying in the hot breeze?
Father: Well son, those things are epeen trees.
Son: Father, they seem rather big and obnoxious when you look at them next to the other trees....
Father: Well, that's what happens son when the southwestern egostream feeds 'em...

[MischiefSC]

Philldoe, on 15 July 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

Yeah, the others probably weren't bringing their A game to those fights. You generally have to be one of the top 4-5 teams before we actually take a fight seriously. Hell I'd be willing to bet half the people on the HoL side weren't actually IN HoL.

So yes, Schope put it perfectly. We still think you are a joke.

You may not be aware of this, but comments like this not only make you look bad but the people you associate with look bad too. Even if you don't care that other people are a bit contemptuous of you, do you really want to make people lose respect for those you associate with?You play pretend shooty robots. How you treat other people in a shared social environment says far more about someone and their worth than anything they do in this silly game we're playing.

[lpmagic]

Alwrath, on 15 July 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

LOL. Im not threatening anyone. There is nothing more honorable than to seek out enemies on the battlefield who say derogatory comments about your unit, especially when they dont have a clue. Are you saying your unit supports trash talking and putting people down in chat? That seems like a great way to make friends there chief *sarcasm*

I am merely defending my honor and the honor of my unit, maybe you and Kyle Write should think before you speak against the " big boys " as he put it.

Hehe

ok "Big boy", here is the scoop, you protect the "honor" of your unit and I will stand beside my friend, and represent myself in a professional manner, which I have done, and will continue to do, no bluster or bravado. I stand by my past record as a stand up guy, I don't talk trash in game, and I'm even a fair hand at it. you threaten a friend and I will stand up for him, weather he needs it or not, is that truly different then what you are saying regarding your "clan"?

as for not having a clue, well, I think that is a misnomer, from folks who do nothing but play competitively, in established leagues against top tier teams, on a regular basis, there might be a clue had, or two.

relax man, you will have your chance, puffing your chest out here is just a little bit silly and not needed, there will be a time to put the cards on the table, I'm sure of it, I'm glad you think it is honorable to bluster and carry on.

good luck in your endeavors as a team and player, I genuinely wish you well as a unit, we need more teams playing.

notoriety will not, however, come from this type of jackalopery, fame of this sort is fleeting at best.....

Look forward to seeing you on the field of "play"

[Kyle Wright]

Alwrath, on 15 July 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

I am far from angry sir. And being a tactician in this game I wouldent be stupid enough to zerg you, especially in a comp match. But karma has a way of getting back to you, and one day ill have the opportunity to defend the honor of my clan against a trash talker like you.

Like I said bring it on.

Please skip to 15seconds

Edited by Kyle Wright, 15 July 2014 - 11:23 AM.

[Odins Fist]