364 replies to this topic

[Adiuvo]

Gyrok, on 16 July 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Erm...what universe do you live in? Awesome? Hunchback? Trebuchet? Locust? Thunderbolt? Kintaro?

Those were all invalidated for comp play long ago...you BARELY see any Centurions any more, and even then it is primarily due to drop deck restrictions and trying to squeeze every ton you can out of something like a 550 drop deck. When you do see them it is basically the YLW or bust, too.

Things are going to get invalidated. As much as I hate to be the bearer of bad news, something will always be stronger than something else in certain arenas. Now, if LRMs were meta, the AWS would be a top tier IS mech, so would the Treb, Kintaro, and several of those others. By the same token, those mediums would be much more highly thought of if SRMs were a big part of the meta as well.

Those issues invalidate those mechs. By the same token, the Griffin is only good as a skirmisher with SRM loadout, even then, there are more preferable mediums in spite of the good geometry and other perks the GRF has going for it.

There are good mechs out there that are STILL invalidated by PP FLD. So, sitting back and saying..."why not nerf this chassis because the old meta was a problem and still is...?" Makes ZERO sense.

I feel like I am trying to have a discussion with a stubborn zealot. You fail to see the validity of the counter points to any of your arguments and continue to ignore the glaring flaws in your solutions.

That is exactly my point. Mechs like the Cataphract and Dragon Slayer have already invalidated enough mechs. This doesn't need to be made worse by clan mechs, which can do the same thing that Cataphracts and Dragon Slayers do, just better.

[Jman5]

Gyrok, on 16 July 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

EDIT: As for CERPPC, it suffers from the issue of requiring 1.83 DHS per ton to be sustainably fired, while the IS PPC requires only 1.14 per ton. Meaning that the IS variant is superior in every way except range, even then, that is a minor trade off considering the enormous difference in DPS versus tonnage/crit cost.

That's pretty dishonest to compare heat of the Clan ER PPC with normal PPCs instead of IS ER PPCs. They both generate 15 heat btw. The difference is the clan one does 50% more damage, and requires 50% less crit space.

And the range between the IS PPC and Clan ER PPC is a minor trade off? Better tell all those IS mechs who get hard countered under 90 meters that it's only a minor trade off. Or when they're exchanging fire with the ER variant at 800 meters + that it's not a big deal.

[Roland]

Gyrok, on 16 July 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

EDIT: As for CERPPC, it suffers from the issue of requiring 1.83 DHS per ton to be sustainably fired, while the IS PPC requires only 1.14 per ton. Meaning that the IS variant is superior in every way except range, even then, that is a minor trade off considering the enormous difference in DPS versus tonnage/crit cost.

You say that the IS PPC is superior "in every way", but the reality is that it's actually INFERIOR in every way except for heat. It has less range, a minium range, takes more critical slots, weighs more, and does less damage.

So when you say, "in every way", what you really mean is "in one way".

And, as someone else actually already pointed out, that one advantages is somewhat muted by virtue of the fact that the clan mechs inherently have more tonnage and critical space due to half-size upgrades, smaller DHS and Engines, and lighter weaponry.

[Gyrok]

Jman5, on 16 July 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

That's pretty dishonest to compare heat of the Clan ER PPC with normal PPCs instead of IS ER PPCs. They both generate 15 heat btw. The difference is the clan one does 50% more damage, and requires 50% less crit space.

And the range between the IS PPC and Clan ER PPC is a minor trade off? Better tell all those IS mechs who get hard countered under 90 meters that it's only a minor trade off. Or when they're exchanging fire with the ER variant at 800 meters + that it's not a big deal.

Actually, it is 33% less crit slots and it does 0 more PP damage, which is the underlying issue.

As for the IS ERPPC, the DHS per ton ratios are slightly different only because there is a 1 ton difference in weight between the 2, because of the mirror image stats for heat/range, the overall number of DHS required to cool them sufficiently remains the same, though the DHS per ton required is off by weight.

Actually, considering that the weight/crit slot argument is thrown out the window by chassis restrictions, the only way that it is not superior that is meaningful is the minimum range. If you hit a leg on a mech with either one they both do 10 damage.

Edited by Gyrok, 16 July 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Let me turn that around on you, which is the point - you pick any is mech from 55 to 95 tons you want and I'll make a TW build that can beat it at its own game.

Thats the point. Not that you coulndn't make a poptart that can beat a tw srmboat. Its that a tw can beat anything even close to its own tonnage at the same game.

Sandpit, on 15 July 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

you pick the mech bud, I'm just interested to see if it can be done and I happen to think I'm a pretty good mech designer. You build the TW and I'll build a counter. I think it can be done, I think I can build a mech to counter any clan mech design.

To make it interesting I think tonnage should go out the window. It should be matched by weight class since that's how the MM works.

[Y E O N N E]

Sandpit, on 15 July 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

just because I'm bored and looking for a challenge, post your smurfy link to said TW build and I'll give it a shot. Give the specific parameters you want the IS mech built to.

I have a few caveats as well though
no restrictions on engine types (that's one of the clans downsides in my opinion, they CAN'T mount std engines)
no restrictions on how I build the mech as long as it is legal and can drop in a game

challenge accepted

I saw your thread before coming back to this one and already posted a chassis. Oops.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 16 July 2014 - 03:42 PM.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 16 July 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

Let me turn that around on you, which is the point - you pick any is mech from 55 to 95 tons you want and I'll make a TW build that can beat it at its own game.

Thats the point. Not that you coulndn't make a poptart that can beat a tw srmboat. Its that a tw can beat anything even close to its own tonnage at the same game.

it's not about the "same game" though. If the TW is really "op" then there shouldn't be a build I can counter.

plus you know it'd be fun to put your builds up against mine. We've both been here for a while and know how to build mechs effectively

so how about this instead
you post your best 3 TW builds and I'll post my 3 best heavy builds. There's no point in matching tonnage since the MM doesn't match tonnage. It should be matched by weight class instead. Throw em up in my thread bud. I'm honestly just wanting to have some fun with it

In my thread I even posted that I'd match ranges and such so no, I wouldn't put up a long range sniper boat poptart mech against an srm heavy build. That would just go against the spirit of the whole idea

[MischiefSC]

Fair enough. I will smurfy them up when i get home. Main one gor me though is uac20 + 2xerlls, 2 jjs and shs. Heat 1.46. 62 pt bursts over 1.5 sec every 4 sec with heat for 4 consecutive burns and 5 tons of ammo. In a duelits a lot of abuse with significant accuracy.

4asrm4as plus 4xcermls plus one cerll. more damage, hotter, less precision, but a brutal drubbing up close.

For a long range dual I would drop the gauss for 2x erppcs and 2 erlls plus some lrms. spoil aim and stay at 900 m.

[Sandpit]

i'll do my best to match the "archetype" of your builds. If it's a long range sniper I'll come up with a long range mech. if it's a short range brawler I'll come up with a short range build as well. I don't think this will "prove" anything one way or the other but it does give us some comparisons and ideas. If nothing else it will show certain areas that certain mechs might excel at. I may even throw in a couple of "never used" mechs just to see how they would fare. No matter how good you think your build is there's ALWAYS going to be someone saying "my build is better" lol

We can't really quantify player skill, teamwork, etc. but at least we can compare viability and dps and such although it's not entirely about dps either.

[MischiefSC]

You got premium time? I would love to see some 1v1 with these builds. We've got enough experience to identify if something came down to skill or nature of the buil.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 16 July 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

You got premium time? I would love to see some 1v1 with these builds. We've got enough experience to identify if something came down to skill or nature of the buil.

in the interest of just seeing how this goes I might be willing to buy a day of premium time for kicks and giggles. I realistically won't have time to play until Sunday at the earliest though.

[MischiefSC]

That sounds like a plan. I was of the same opinion, haven't bought MC in forever but it's worth it for some actual data to back up the general opinion on Clan mechs.

2xERLL +UAC20 being an example. Up close I'm comfortable saying that it's hands down the most crushing brawling setup I've ever played. It looks decent on paper but when handled right it's got the speed and maneuverability to exploit CERLLs better than most Clan mechs and having those sets of weapons on the arms synergize very well up close. There are a few builds like that. They need tested though in a controlled environment to make anything useful out of the observations.

[Sandpit]

I think I've got a Misery build that would stand up with it fairly well. I think my Ilya MIGHT do some damage to it but wouldn't last long in a 1v1. Pair it up with just about any other mech to help divert attention and it'd go down pretty quickly. we'll see! like i said, it'll be at least sunday before I can see about playing them out.

[Sandpit]

MISERY

that's one build I've been toying around with

[Sandpit]

STK-5M
that's my beam baby right there lol
That mech taught me how to play. Lasers are the most forgiving weapon in the game for a moderately accurate player lol. It's easy to walk a chain fire of 5 LLs into a target, I don't care if it's a locust movin 160+
It also taught me how to manage my heat. I can jump into just about any build out there and be alright because I've learned how to group and chain fire and when to use those alpha strikes to their best affect.

[Praehotec8]

http://mwomercs.com/...ew-data-170714/

So far the best evidence I've seen, and it actually looks pretty balanced. The timberwolf actually seems to be averaging about 0.9 kills/match. Pretty reasonable. More data and a true analysis for statistical significance are obviously needed (locusts are leading in kills/match!).

[Jon Gotham]

Praehotec8, on 16 July 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ew-data-170714/

So far the best evidence I've seen, and it actually looks pretty balanced. The timberwolf actually seems to be averaging about 0.9 kills/match. Pretty reasonable. More data and a true analysis for statistical significance are obviously needed (locusts are leading in kills/match!).

The clan stuff though is killing more per match and is doing more damage per match, and dies less as well.....
Also noted clan tonnage seems to be heavier....maybe people are attracted to all those Direwolf alphas...hoping to derp them some kills?
Or maybe higher elo players have gravitated to them earlier? Who knows....
I have a thor package and still prefer my IS mechs:)

[Mcgral18]

kamiko kross, on 23 July 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

The clan stuff though is killing more per match and is doing more damage per match, and dies less as well.....
Also noted clan tonnage seems to be heavier....maybe people are attracted to all those Direwolf alphas...hoping to derp them some kills?
Or maybe higher elo players have gravitated to them earlier? Who knows....
I have a thor package and still prefer my IS mechs:)

I've gone back to my Muromets for some dakka fun. I hadn't realised UAC5s were buffed again to the same jam chance as the DakkaGeddon of ye old 30% off sale time; 15% jam rate.

Of course the cooldown is 1.67 instead of 1.1....but it still works beautifully.

The Nova is nice, but it just can't handle Dakka bigger than a UAC10, and even that is difficult.

[Sandpit]

Mcgral18, on 23 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

I've gone back to my Muromets for some dakka fun. I hadn't realised UAC5s were buffed again to the same jam chance as the DakkaGeddon of ye old 30% off sale time; 15% jam rate.

Of course the cooldown is 1.67 instead of 1.1....but it still works beautifully.

The Nova is nice, but it just can't handle Dakka bigger than a UAC10, and even that is difficult.

3 of em will still melt a mech quickly

[Utilyan]

Wait so time and experience ..........L2p is true?


I don't have any clan mechs, no clan experience, no clan time....... so how will I L2p them? P2W.

Wait a minute....


L2P2W The meaning of life.......