364 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Quote

You can elect to have speed, or you can elect to have survivability. You can choose firepower, or agility.

Or you can take a clan XL and have a high speed, light weight engine that has no downside in terms of survivability.

That's the point.

That's why people cited maneuverability of clan mechs like the TW...because it's an exceptionally fast heavy, but which does not suffer the main downside that an IS heavy that wanted to try and do the same thing suffers... that it isn't forced to take an engine which results in its death from losing a side torso.

That's why the torso twist numbers you presented didn't really make much sense in the context of the conversation.

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Sure with clan mechs the XL engines can take a ST loss...but you are horribly crippled typically just like an IS mech with a STD engine...typically losing the ammo for all your weapons short of energy weapons...you may as well be dead...though you ignore that point..

Eh.. not really man. Half a clan mech's weapons is still a boatload of weapons.

[Mystere]

I have come to the conclusion that Firestarters are indeed OP because of the Ember. My proof is in the forums (i.e. because people "much better than me" said they are).

[Gyrok]

Roland, on 14 July 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Or you can take a clan XL and have a high speed, light weight engine that has no downside in terms of survivability.

That's the point.

That's why people cited maneuverability of clan mechs like the TW...because it's an exceptionally fast heavy, but which does not suffer the main downside that an IS heavy that wanted to try and do the same thing suffers... that it isn't forced to take an engine which results in its death from losing a side torso.

That's why the torso twist numbers you presented didn't really make much sense in the context of the conversation.


Eh.. not really man. Half a clan mech's weapons is still a boatload of weapons.

Right...like the meta build with all the weapons on the right side...oh wait...

Or like the Gauss/PPC build on the summoner...oh wait...

What about the Warhawk with that completely locked left torso...oh wait...

What about the kitfox with ECM on the right arm...oh wait...

The only mechs that have something of symmetrical loadouts are typically the DW, SCR, NVA, ADR...

Of those, the SCR is honestly the only one that is really strong of the entire lot.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Kyle Wright, on 14 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

but you sir are a about the only decent player out of your unit of unwanted toys.

Wow... really dude? Ive been sittin back drinking my coffee and reading this spectacle all day today and you basically just insulted not only me, but every member of Clan Wolf Delta Galaxy.

Well see what you think of our unit of unwanted toys when I headshot you with my sniper builds or throw some srm's in your face.

I cannot wait to see you on the battlefield. I will be coming for you. I hope your ready.

- Alwrath

[Adiuvo]

Gyrok, on 14 July 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

I think he answered that for me...however, the agility was being disputed...so how can you dispute the facts about the agility of the mechs? That is what is hard coded into the game. Clans play by no different rules about engines or turning or torso twist.

Additionally, you all dispute IS mechs do not run those big engines...but they did before...? Why the sudden change?

You can elect to have speed, or you can elect to have survivability. You can choose firepower, or agility.

The point is...YOU make that choice for what YOU want to do with YOUR mech. There are people who put XL400 engines in Battlemasters to do 84 kph in an 85 ton assault mech and roll face. There are people who do it and fail miserably.

Now we get back into the difference being beyond the chassis.

Sure with clan mechs the XL engines can take a ST loss...but you are horribly crippled typically just like an IS mech with a STD engine...typically losing the ammo for all your weapons short of energy weapons...you may as well be dead...though you ignore that point...

Clan XLs allow you to have speed, firepower, and tankiness. This is why your torso twist comment made no sense, because clan XLs and IS XLs are fundamentally different.

An XL 400 Battlemaster is a complete **** so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up either. Yeah you technically can do it, but it offers zero benefits over anything else at any role. Customization is great if it's relevant. The issue is that the TW basically has equipment that people would already put on their mech if they had free choice. Perhaps drop the engine rating a bit, but that's it.

The problem build that basically everyone but you has in mind is an asymmetrical TW. It can lose a ST without losing any weapons. Or it can go non-asym, and only lose 1 PPC.

Quote

You also ignore that mechs like the centurion can run around with nothing but a CT left and still do damage to others until they kill you...have you all forgotten the zombie craze so suddenly? It was not all that long ago. Additionally, what happens when the Kingfisher comes with a Clan STD engine? Will you cry OP then too because it can lose both STs and continue to fight?

Zombie Cents stomped being a thing... gosh, probably around November 2012. It also wasn't so much that they could zombie, it's that they had 75% damage reduction to the CT once they lost both the arm and the side torso, making them take a stupid amount of firepower to bring down. That has since been fixed.

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LOL...if mine is NOT numerical information that is empirically indisputable, then yours was cocktail napkin scribble with a beer spilled on it.


GG...that was a good laugh...thanks!

Sorry, perhaps it was wrong to say it wasn't numerical information. It certainly was. It was just irrelevant, because you cannot compare IS XL engines directly to clan XLs. IS standards to clan XLs would be more relevant.

Edited by Adiuvo, 14 July 2014 - 07:05 PM.

[Roland]

Gyrok, on 14 July 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

Right...like the meta build with all the weapons on the right side...oh wait...

Err.. but that's kind of the whole point of that build. It's a sword and board build.
You put everything in one side, and then you don't expose that side to incoming fire... and you use the entire other side of your mech to soak damage.

I mean, sure, if you run that kind of build and then let them kill your sword side, then you're screwed.. but that means you failed to use the mech as it was designed.

This is actually why the Dragonslayer is the best Victor.

This isn't a design flaw dude. It's a strength.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Roland, on 14 July 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

Err.. but that's kind of the whole point of that build. It's a sword and board build.
You put everything in one side, and then you don't expose that side to incoming fire... and you use the entire other side of your mech to soak damage.

I mean, sure, if you run that kind of build and then let them kill your sword side, then you're screwed.. but that means you failed to use the mech as it was designed.

This is actually why the Dragonslayer is the best Victor.

This isn't a design flaw dude. It's a strength.

It can be a strength, and sometimes its not neccessarily the pilots fault if your " sword " side torso or arm gets blown off, every good pilot knows unexpected things happen on the battlefield. You could lose your sword arm and it be of no fault of your own.

[MischiefSC]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 July 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

I mean...depending on the build and the map...1v1? Yeah I mean...it could be.

Pick a map. Pick a build for any of those 3 mechs. I'll go 1 on 1 vs anyone in a CTF, Orion or VTR. Build of their choice, map of their choice. I'll take a TW build. I just bought some MC specifically for this same thing with Gyrok.

A TW can out-range any of those mechs and do it with more speed. You want to go Alpine or Caustic and go long range poptart stuff? I wouldn't even go Gauss - I'd go ERPPCs and ERLLs, trade off firing them with a pile of DHS at 900m and just move whenever you tried to get closer than that. More damage at more range. Maybe some LURMs, just to be funny.

Brawling? SRM + laser build vs anything you want to bring. Maybe 2xERLL + UAC20 or LB20X. I find the SRM6A spreads a bit much, I get more miles from 4xSRM4s + 2xERLLs + 2ERMLs.

Here's the fundamental issue that pushes the TW into punching above its weight class -

Clan XL + better weapon range.

You've got to pull my CT or both side torsos. In a brawl, that's 30-60 pts more I've got, because I only need to pull a CT off of a Phract/Orion/Victor.

Why?

Because if I'm running that 375XL and you're not in a 1v1, You're never going to see me closer than 800-900m. At which range I'm just going to chew, chew, chew on you with ERPPCs or ERLLs until you're bite-sized.

1v1 the TW is, IMO, peerless. The only problem you'd have would actually be *smaller* mechs, like an ECM raven or spider with an ERLL sniper loadout. Then it's going to shift a lot more towards luck.

Anything else and 1 v 1 a TW will absolutely no question rock the s**t out of it. Either by staying at the range where it's going to do way more damage with every exchange, because it's almost 20kph faster than you, or because up close it's going to be punching for ~70pts per alpha and it only needs to pull 1 ST out of its opponent while having to get its CT cored (without being able to spread that damage to side torsos and the like) in return.

I'm an average pilot. I'm certainly no gold tier. I'll still take a TW against *anyone*, gold tier or not, in any IS mech within 20 tons of a TW. 55-95 tons, any IS mech. A *good* HGN pilot might be a serious threat on the right map with the right loadout.

Anything else I'll **** the face off of pretty consistently. Shoot me an invite, fire up premium time if you haven't got it already and we'll do private matches all day.

Now, let me make this clear -

I'm not saying the TW is hugely OP. The glory days of Boomjags and pre-nerf VTRs were far more so IMO. The TW starts to really fall apart when it's outnumbered or encounters a pair of decently piloted light mechs - Clan lasers suck on ice vs fast IS lights. You nerf down the PPFLD meta for PPCs/ACs/Gauss and you'll see fast IS lights come back into their own.

1v1 though? It does anything and everything and does it all better than anything else even close to its weight class. People sucking in TWs are sucking because they don't realize how easy it is to get out of position in a 90kph heavy. They end up in a valley facing 3 other heavies and get hammered, or run off alone and get humped by a pair of lights. They get identified (rightly) as a major threat and get focused down by the enemy even in the middle of a pack of allies.

1v1 however.... yeah. 20 tons either direction. It out-guns what it can't out-run.

[MischiefSC]

Addendum -

To everyone arguing over who has the toughest Clan, etc.

My e-peen is *enormous*. The last girl who saw it asked if it needed walked, fed or taken to the zoo.

Also, your mama is so easy, I got her for cbills the day of her release.

Adiuvo, on 14 July 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

Clan XLs allow you to have speed, firepower, and tankiness. This is why your torso twist comment made no sense, because clan XLs and IS XLs are fundamentally different.

An XL 400 Battlemaster is a complete **** so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up either. Yeah you technically can do it, but it offers zero benefits over anything else at any role. Customization is great if it's relevant. The issue is that the TW basically has equipment that people would already put on their mech if they had free choice. Perhaps drop the engine rating a bit, but that's it.

The problem build that basically everyone but you has in mind is an asymmetrical TW. It can lose a ST without losing any weapons. Or it can go non-asym, and only lose 1 PPC.



Zombie Cents stomped being a thing... gosh, probably around November 2012. It also wasn't so much that they could zombie, it's that they had 75% damage reduction to the CT once they lost both the arm and the side torso, making them take a stupid amount of firepower to bring down. That has since been fixed.



Sorry, perhaps it was wrong to say it wasn't numerical information. It certainly was. It was just irrelevant, because you cannot compare IS XL engines directly to clan XLs. IS standards to clan XLs would be more relevant.

Battlemaster with 400XL and 4xPPCs. It's so... nostalgic. You can actually get a full 4PPC Alpha on most maps with it without shutting down. It hill-humps well. If you're ever missing the old 4PPC Stalker days....

It dies quickly when someone realized just what you are and where, but if you miss the comedy value of headshotting someone at 500m on Frozen, that's the go-to build.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 14 July 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

Pick a map. Pick a build for any of those 3 mechs. I'll go 1 on 1 vs anyone in a CTF, Orion or VTR. Build of their choice, map of their choice. I'll take a TW build. I just bought some MC specifically for this same thing with Gyrok.

A TW can out-range any of those mechs and do it with more speed. You want to go Alpine or Caustic and go long range poptart stuff? I wouldn't even go Gauss - I'd go ERPPCs and ERLLs, trade off firing them with a pile of DHS at 900m and just move whenever you tried to get closer than that. More damage at more range. Maybe some LURMs, just to be funny.

Brawling? SRM + laser build vs anything you want to bring. Maybe 2xERLL + UAC20 or LB20X. I find the SRM6A spreads a bit much, I get more miles from 4xSRM4s + 2xERLLs + 2ERMLs.

Here's the fundamental issue that pushes the TW into punching above its weight class -

Clan XL + better weapon range.

You've got to pull my CT or both side torsos. In a brawl, that's 30-60 pts more I've got, because I only need to pull a CT off of a Phract/Orion/Victor.

Why?

Because if I'm running that 375XL and you're not in a 1v1, You're never going to see me closer than 800-900m. At which range I'm just going to chew, chew, chew on you with ERPPCs or ERLLs until you're bite-sized.

1v1 the TW is, IMO, peerless. The only problem you'd have would actually be *smaller* mechs, like an ECM raven or spider with an ERLL sniper loadout. Then it's going to shift a lot more towards luck.

Anything else and 1 v 1 a TW will absolutely no question rock the s**t out of it. Either by staying at the range where it's going to do way more damage with every exchange, because it's almost 20kph faster than you, or because up close it's going to be punching for ~70pts per alpha and it only needs to pull 1 ST out of its opponent while having to get its CT cored (without being able to spread that damage to side torsos and the like) in return.

I'm an average pilot. I'm certainly no gold tier. I'll still take a TW against *anyone*, gold tier or not, in any IS mech within 20 tons of a TW. 55-95 tons, any IS mech. A *good* HGN pilot might be a serious threat on the right map with the right loadout.

Anything else I'll **** the face off of pretty consistently. Shoot me an invite, fire up premium time if you haven't got it already and we'll do private matches all day.

Now, let me make this clear -

I'm not saying the TW is hugely OP. The glory days of Boomjags and pre-nerf VTRs were far more so IMO. The TW starts to really fall apart when it's outnumbered or encounters a pair of decently piloted light mechs - Clan lasers suck on ice vs fast IS lights. You nerf down the PPFLD meta for PPCs/ACs/Gauss and you'll see fast IS lights come back into their own.

1v1 though? It does anything and everything and does it all better than anything else even close to its weight class. People sucking in TWs are sucking because they don't realize how easy it is to get out of position in a 90kph heavy. They end up in a valley facing 3 other heavies and get hammered, or run off alone and get humped by a pair of lights. They get identified (rightly) as a major threat and get focused down by the enemy even in the middle of a pack of allies.

1v1 however.... yeah. 20 tons either direction. It out-guns what it can't out-run.

Already laid that out for you buddy...did you accept the terms then?

[MischiefSC]

Absolutely. You're going to run an HGN 733C with a brawling build, I'm going to take a TW with the build of my choice. I did say that since you'd compared the TW to the Phract and Orion prior it's fair to say you owe at least one match in either.

The whole point being that the TW punches way outside its weight. The fact that you need to take a 95 ton Highlander to even hope to break even.

I'm totally game though. Even giving you a 20 ton edge, the TW is a tougher mech. The only issue is if I'm good enough to take advantage of it to make up the 20 ton difference.

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 14 July 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

Absolutely. You're going to run an HGN 733C with a brawling build, I'm going to take a TW with the build of my choice. I did say that since you'd compared the TW to the Phract and Orion prior it's fair to say you owe at least one match in either.

The whole point being that the TW punches way outside its weight. The fact that you need to take a 95 ton Highlander to even hope to break even.

I'm totally game though. Even giving you a 20 ton edge, the TW is a tougher mech. The only issue is if I'm good enough to take advantage of it to make up the 20 ton difference.

Quick correction, the HGN is 90 tons. Banshee is 95.

With working SRMs, I'm not sure the WubShee would beat it in a brawl...50 aimed damage VS 48 spread+lasers.

HGN brawler has potential. CTF brawler...well, less armor, slower, either a pair of UACs or an AC20 with a quartet of MLs. More durable, but nothing to zombie with.


Should be interesting at any rate.

[Peter2000]

Mystere, on 14 July 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

That's a good start.

But, you have a preponderance of the phrase "massive" without actually clearly quantifying them, or without giving how you arrived at your numbers. You seem to have downplayed (i.e. brushed off) the difference between burst-fire and single-shot weapons without going into the necessary details, including a dynamic analysis which I think is required in this area (i.e. mechs don't exactly just stand face to face while shooting at each other). You even (surprisingly) offered SRMs as a reasonable alternative to the IS AC20. You also claim Clan superiority with respect to the Gauss rifle without quantifying why. Finally, you hint that the CLBX/20's scatter shot is almost as good as a single projectile without, again, giving any supporting evidence.

Also, your work sounds more like an "observation" instead of a real "analysis" given the absence of a general analysis model/methodology, not to mention -- again -- the lack of supporting evidence. This and the items I mentioned above give me the impression, rightly or wrongly, of an inherent bias, as if the point was to "prove" that the Clans are OP, and not to determine whether or not they actually were (i.e. predetermined conclusion driving your "analysis").

I'll go over your work again later on to add more things, if any.

As the author of said document, I'd like to say a few things. First, sorry about any phrasing that was not the most beautiful prose - I may overuse some words, like massive. However, when I use that particular word, I mean a very large qualitative difference (i.e. one that cannot easily be quantified, but is large and positive). I also use numbers whenever I can (see the section on Clan advantage in weaponry, where I practically throw the smurfy reference library at you ).

I don't brush off the difference between multi-pellet ballistics. I do, however, split it into two roles for the AC/5 (the best fire support AND jumpsniping AC): fire support and jumpsniping. For firesupport, you are at near full front if you want to maximize DPS, so the pellet stream is a minor disadvantage, while you still benefit from free tonnage and crits. For jump sniping (or really any sort of sniping, side-peek trading, etc.), I agree it makes a HUGE difference, and breaks the CUAC/5 for that role. However, the Clan Gauss can replace it: IS Gauss is about as good in jump sniping as IS AC/5, and the Clan Gauss is better than IS Gauss. And this is not without justification. I say in the advantages section (under weapons) that the Clan Gauss and IS Gauss are identical except that the Clan Gauss saves 3 tons and 1 crit, which is quite substantial.

SRMs, especially Clan SRMs, which are far more tonnage efficient are starting to compete with the AC/20 again, now that reg is fixed. Sure, I'd probably rather use an AC/20 to pop a Jenner in the face, but I might rather have triple ASRM6s (no question I'd prefer quad Clan ASRM6s) against a Highlander at 150m.

The LBX comment is the way it is because spread is inherently hard to quantify. Yes, the spread is a disadvantage. But, it is tight to the point where in testing grounds (because you can quantify better against known entities in a controlled environment), I've found that 150m allows more or less panel-specific damage, which is what makes the AC/20 is so good. As a result, the Clan LBX20 may be worse in some situations (~300-150m, where the spread is a bit much), but better in others (<150m, where the spread is a minor concern and the two tons saving are nice to have). Even if (as I suspect) on the whole the IS AC/20 is a better weapon, it is by a small margin, and is only one weapon comparison.

Edited by Peter2000, 14 July 2014 - 07:54 PM.

[Roland]

I think Gyrok expects you to fight him in a circle where you can't use your mobility or range.

[Kyle Wright]

Alwrath, on 14 July 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

Wow... really dude? Ive been sittin back drinking my coffee and reading this spectacle all day today and you basically just insulted not only me, but every member of Clan Wolf Delta Galaxy.

Well see what you think of our unit of unwanted toys when I headshot you with my sniper builds or throw some srm's in your face.

I cannot wait to see you on the battlefield. I will be coming for you. I hope your ready.

- Alwrath

Bring it dude, as far as i am concerned you cant even fight out of a wet paper bag. Why dont you guys actually try rising through the ranks before you step into the ring with the big boys. Till then you aint worth the time of any high level competitive team. Best suggestion I could say is stop running your clan death machines and start running 12's with IS mechs cause you aint gonna see it in league play any time soon.

[MischiefSC]

Mcgral18, on 14 July 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

Quick correction, the HGN is 90 tons. Banshee is 95.

With working SRMs, I'm not sure the WubShee would beat it in a brawl...50 aimed damage VS 48 spread+lasers.

HGN brawler has potential. CTF brawler...well, less armor, slower, either a pair of UACs or an AC20 with a quartet of MLs. More durable, but nothing to zombie with.


Should be interesting at any rate.

My bad. Still, here's the thing with brawlers -

CERLLs. 890m. Any serious Clan mech needs at least 2. They do 11 damage each at that range. You'll never get a CTF with an AC20 within 600m of a TW, because you'll be in a STD running around 70 while it's doing 90.

Same thing with the HGN. Go ahead and run LLs and AC20 and SRMs, or whatever build you want - more damage, more range, the ability to control the range that fight takes places at.

If you've got the speed to catch it, it'll out-damage you. If you don't have the speed but more firepower, it'll exploit the 2ST or 1CT vs your 1ST to kill advantage.

I love my Banshee. It's a beast. I love a good Wubshee build - rocks the brawl like an SOB.

However, I'd roll SRMs + 4xCERMLLs and 2 JJs. You'll be lucky to have me within the firing arc of torso mounted LPLs long enough to get 2 full alphas.

Side note - my TW can run 4xSRM4As and 4xCERMLs for 60 pts every 3 seconds, like clockwork, and at a way more manageable heat than your WubShee is going to get its 50 off. It also packs a single ERLL, just for long range and kicks. Without the ERLL though that build runs at almost 1.3 heat efficiency.

I'll repeat what I said - it can out-shoot what it can't out-run.

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 14 July 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

My bad. Still, here's the thing with brawlers -

CERLLs. 890m. Any serious Clan mech needs at least 2. They do 11 damage each at that range. You'll never get a CTF with an AC20 within 600m of a TW, because you'll be in a STD running around 70 while it's doing 90.

Same thing with the HGN. Go ahead and run LLs and AC20 and SRMs, or whatever build you want - more damage, more range, the ability to control the range that fight takes places at.

If you've got the speed to catch it, it'll out-damage you. If you don't have the speed but more firepower, it'll exploit the 2ST or 1CT vs your 1ST to kill advantage.

I love my Banshee. It's a beast. I love a good Wubshee build - rocks the brawl like an SOB.

However, I'd roll SRMs + 4xCERMLLs and 2 JJs. You'll be lucky to have me within the firing arc of torso mounted LPLs long enough to get 2 full alphas.

Side note - my TW can run 4xSRM4As and 4xCERMLs for 60 pts every 3 seconds, like clockwork, and at a way more manageable heat than your WubShee is going to get its 50 off. It also packs a single ERLL, just for long range and kicks. Without the ERLL though that build runs at almost 1.3 heat efficiency.

I'll repeat what I said - it can out-shoot what it can't out-run.

Sure, that might work on Alpine. How about HPG?

I'd be up for the challenge, for science. Can it beat a troll build 20 tons heavier?

Though, I'm not sure what a serious build would be. 3 AC5 2PPC/4ML? A tad more conventional, though I don't enjoy it nearly as much as the Wub.

[Roland]

Alwrath, on 14 July 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

It can be a strength, and sometimes its not neccessarily the pilots fault if your " sword " side torso or arm gets blown off, every good pilot knows unexpected things happen on the battlefield. You could lose your sword arm and it be of no fault of your own.

Well, since the TW isn't actually forced to run that config, and build a symetrical one as well, it's a strength and not a weakness.

[MischiefSC]

Mcgral18, on 14 July 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

Sure, that might work on Alpine. How about HPG?

I'd be up for the challenge, for science. Can it beat a troll build 20 tons heavier?

Though, I'm not sure what a serious build would be. 3 AC5 2PPC/4ML? A tad more conventional, though I don't enjoy it nearly as much as the Wub.

You around right now? Do you have premium time? Seriously, for all the chatter around here about 'what would happen', you game for some TW vs Banshee builds and the like?

Just for science. No e-peen waving or the like. Pick a map, pick a build. I'm saying that a TW can beat anything 55-95 tons, built however you want and on the map of your choice. It can out-LURM, out gun, out run anything in that range. Lighter and you can't outrun the little buggers. Bigger and it's just a big tonnage issue (A good Dire Wolf pilot can, well, 2-shot anyone).

Seriously, I'd love to put this to practice.

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 14 July 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

You around right now? Do you have premium time? Seriously, for all the chatter around here about 'what would happen', you game for some TW vs Banshee builds and the like?

Just for science. No e-peen waving or the like. Pick a map, pick a build. I'm saying that a TW can beat anything 55-95 tons, built however you want and on the map of your choice. It can out-LURM, out gun, out run anything in that range. Lighter and you can't outrun the little buggers. Bigger and it's just a big tonnage issue (A good Dire Wolf pilot can, well, 2-shot anyone).

Seriously, I'd love to put this to practice.

We'd need a 3rd party, I'm not into buying premium.

CTFs, Jaegers Victors and Banshee?

Or do we just want the one Mech, a couple rounds? Better science with the first method, a couple rounds in a couple mechs.