26 replies to this topic

[M0rpHeu5]

I am asking the clan owners couse they seem to me like they are straight up better but since i didn't have the chance to use them myself i cannot be sure.
Aslo the IS LRMs are limited by the tubes of the hardpoint they are in, does tube limitation mean anything for the clan LRMs?

[Xeno Phalcon]

So far iv not seen any tube limitations on clan mechs (I can shove a LRM15 into what was originally a warhawks narc tube no problem) the thing is clan mechs ALWAYS spew them out in a stream no matter the size of the rack, while IS only spew if you shove a large rack into a tiny tube mount.

This results in the sensation of being hosed with annoying missiles rather then blasted harshly by a large clump; this means AMS is more effective against clan lrms and getting into cover tends to cause a good chunk of the missiles that were going towards you to plow into the terrain even if you were getting hit by some a few moments before. The flipside is with this patch they will still do damage below 180 meters, just less. this allows clan mechs to keep using their lrms even in a brawl situation though overall they still wont be as good as SRMs in that situation.

EDIT: oh yeah forgot, one of the upsides to clan lrms is they are VERY light compared to IS lrms.

Edited by Xeno Phalcon, 15 July 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[TamCoan]

Honestly IS LRMs are better than clan. Clan LRMs always stream fire. This lets AMS pick off more missiles before they hit. Plus a moving target has the ability to only take partial hits as it move into cover. IS LRMs bulk fire if you have the tubes which means a large glob of missiles will all hit at once. If I see yellow trails in the air and I'm not in cover I'm pretty much taking a ton of damage. Blue trails and I'm pretty comfortable that I'll get out of it without much.

[Kitane]

Two disadvantages:

Clan LRMs release streams of missiles that are more vulnerable to AMS and the damage is more spread (if the enemy torso twists).

Clan mechs have limited options where to store the ammo thanks to various fixed slots. On Stormcrow for example, I have to make a choice between having LRM20s in side torsos and ammo mostly in arms, or LRMs in arms and ammo in the side torso. I suspect this will be a problem for many other mechs as well.

[Wintersdark]

M0rpHeu5, on 15 July 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

I am asking the clan owners couse they seem to me like they are straight up better but since i didn't have the chance to use them myself i cannot be sure.
Aslo the IS LRMs are limited by the tubes of the hardpoint they are in, does tube limitation mean anything for the clan LRMs?

Clan LRM's appear straight up better? Seriously? How do you come to that conclusion?

IS LRM's are NOT limited by the tubes of the hardpoint they are in. For example, you can put a LRM20 in a 10-tube hardpoint, it just fires 10 LRM's then 10 more half a second later. It basically forces a very limited version of what Clan LRM's *always* do.

As such, Clan LRM's don't have a "tubes" concept for their launchers. In all cases, Clan LRM's simply stream fire.

Now, the problem with stream firing is 2 AMS units will completely shut down an CLRM20, while it'll only destroy a couple missiles from an IS LRM20. A twin CLRM15 mech will see more than half it's firepower stopped by those two AMS units (assuming one on your target mech and one on another nearby).

If there's a triple AMS kitfox around, or even 2-3 regular AMS units spattered about, CLRM's are essentially negated.

IS LRM boats don't need to worry about this. Even when they're firing through smaller tube-count launchers, they're only spreading their fire a small amount. They lose a couple more missiles to defending AMS, but nothing even remotely as bad as CLRM's.

[Lykaon]

TamCoan, on 15 July 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Honestly IS LRMs are better than clan. Clan LRMs always stream fire. This lets AMS pick off more missiles before they hit. Plus a moving target has the ability to only take partial hits as it move into cover. IS LRMs bulk fire if you have the tubes which means a large glob of missiles will all hit at once. If I see yellow trails in the air and I'm not in cover I'm pretty much taking a ton of damage. Blue trails and I'm pretty comfortable that I'll get out of it without much.

However,while this is correct there are a couple of odd quirks not mentioned with ripple fire Clan LRMs.

The AMS fires off near constantly leaving the AMS dry about 5 minutes after contact in LRM heavy games.Also I.S. AMS has half the ammo of clan AMS this will be a bigger issue once we no longer have mixed IS and Clan teams.

Clan LRMs have half the tonnage of I.S. counterparts and require fewer critical slots.This allows Clan LRM launchers to be added in on top of another more specialized build while I.S. mechs will more often than not be purpose built for LRMs clan mechs may have an LRM launcher or two simply because they fit.Since the clan LRMs do not become 100% useless at sub 180m ranges I will count on seeing brawlers with LRMs built on clan chassis.This means higher number of clan LRM launchers will be fielded and on mechs capable of defending themselves in a brawl. More LRMs vs more effective AMS = null overall effect.The AMS shoots off like crazy for the first third of a match then it's empty.

When all things are considered the clan LRMs are vastly superior to I.S. counterparts. with having one fault that has a useful side effect (ripple fire prevents concentration of damage yet drains AMS ammo) Everything else about clan LRMs is great.

Edited by Lykaon, 15 July 2014 - 09:47 AM.

[OznerpaG]

after playing near 1000 games using IS LRMs i played 10 games with c-LRMs and they stunk so much i went back to my IS LRM mechs. with c-LRMs i was getting 50% of the damage i usually get since they were so slow to lock on and c-TAG wasn't working properly either

will give them another shot after the patch, but i don't see evidence that the above problems were fixed in the patch notes so i doubt i'l be converted

[Lykaon]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

If there's a triple AMS kitfox around, or even 2-3 regular AMS units spattered about, CLRM's are essentially negated.

Keeping an eye to the future that Kitfox will be on the clan team with 11 other clan mechs.

Once players adapt to how clan LRMs function we should see more of them in use on mixed purpose builds.If there is a missile hardpoint and some free tonnage it's a good plan to slap on a C LRM launcher almost always.

Inner Sphere mechs tend to be purpose built for a specific role.With an omni mech you will find you can build for a role AND slap on an LRM launcher or build an LRM boat with some serious brawl potential.

[bluepiglet]

Balanced? Things ain't meant to be balanced now and it will remain so for a good while. The players who refused to pay for these Clan meches have been assigned a new job which is usually occupied my AI in many MMOG, to act as live targets for "Premium" players.

Just watch how things are going to happen. The stronkth of Clan weapons will only grow, until the day they come available for C-Bills when a massive nerf stick awaits.

[Wintersdark]

Lykaon, on 15 July 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Keeping an eye to the future that Kitfox will be on the clan team with 11 other clan mechs.

Once players adapt to how clan LRMs function we should see more of them in use on mixed purpose builds.If there is a missile hardpoint and some free tonnage it's a good plan to slap on a C LRM launcher almost always.

Inner Sphere mechs tend to be purpose built for a specific role.With an omni mech you will find you can build for a role AND slap on an LRM launcher or build an LRM boat with some serious brawl potential.

Well, I'll believe we'll have all Clan mech vs. all IS mech battles (outside private matches) when it happens. I severely doubt it ever will, however: Even with CW, they'll allow IS players to use clan mechs because salvage. (Read: Because friends want to play together with the mechs they bought)

[Mcgral18]

bluepiglet, on 15 July 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Balanced? Things ain't meant to be balanced now and it will remain so for a good while. The players who refused to pay for these Clan meches have been assigned a new job which is usually occupied my AI in many MMOG, to act as live targets for "Premium" players.

Just watch how things are going to happen. The stronkth of Clan weapons will only grow, until the day they come available for C-Bills when a massive nerf stick awaits.

Perhaps in your fantasy world.

Which faction has superior ACs? LRMs? Shorter burn lasers, where the Clan has a single laser that outdamages the IS laser in the same time span. No low heat PPCs.

Things that actually are superior? MGs, Gauss, SRMs, ERMLs. Might be missing a couple, but the MGs and SRMs are half the weight with the same stats, Gauss is 3 tons lighter and the ERMLs do nearly identical damage to the isML in the same time span, then an additional 2 damage in .3 seconds.


Whine about the proper things next time.

[EvilCow]

I my stats I see a significantly better accuracy for clan LRMs compared to the equivalent IS weapon. Apparently the stream is not a disadvantage as many seem to think.

For example I have the LRM15 at 22.47% and CLRM15 at 34.66% (no Artemis). The difference is there also for LRM5s, 28.20% vs 33.06%.

Strange, isn't it? anybody, please publish your accuracy numbers for launchers that have accumulated at least some hours of usage.

Edited by EvilCow, 15 July 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[Mcgral18]

EvilCow, on 15 July 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

I my stats I see a significantly better accuracy for clan LRMs compared to the equivalent IS weapon. Apparently the stream is not a disadvantage as many seem to think.

For example I have the LRM15 at 22.47% and CLRM15 at 34.66% (no Artemis). The difference is there also for LRM5s, 28.20% vs 33.06%.

Strange, isn't it? anybody, please publish your accuracy numbers for launchers that have accumulated at least some hours of usage.

Don't forget to post damage alongside those accuracy numbers.

Just like an ML might have 90%+ accuracy, but never have as much damage an an AC5 at a lower %.

[C E Dwyer]

Currently IS lrms are better, they launch in a group not stream fire like on clans.

Clan LRm's do look prettier if that's how you define better ?

I do suspect once clan LRMs can damage at any range, this patch, things will change drastically.

The alpha of a 45 lrm boat doing .5 per missile at 90meters is nothing to be sneezed at, as the stream will minimise spread

it will be effectively Streak 22.5

Edited by Cathy, 15 July 2014 - 10:22 AM.

[EvilCow]

Damage is proportional in case of missiles, the damage for hit is constant, anyway feel free to post damage too.

Cathy, on 15 July 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Clan LRm's do look prettier if that's how you define better ?

I define better by looking at accuracy and damage stats after a significant number of hours of usage.

[Wintersdark]

EvilCow, on 15 July 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

I my stats I see a significantly better accuracy for clan LRMs compared to the equivalent IS weapon. Apparently the stream is not a disadvantage as many seem to think.

For example I have the LRM15 at 22.47% and CLRM15 at 34.66% (no Artemis). The difference is there also for LRM5s, 28.20% vs 33.06%.

Strange, isn't it? anybody, please publish your accuracy numbers for launchers that have accumulated at least some hours of usage.

EvilCow, on 15 July 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Damage is proportional in case of missiles, the damage for hit is constant, anyway feel free to post damage too.

I define better by looking at accuracy and damage stats after a significant number of hours of usage.

All the other weapon stats are the same, Mr. Cow.

Clan LRM's track the same, fly in the same arcs and at the same speeds.

Your stats are your stats, but that has no bearing on the weapons themselves.

For example, my stats are the opposite - My IS LRM's (with stats reaching back as long as we've had stats) run from 32% accuracy to 39%. My Clan LRM stats, on the other hand, are 24-29%. Of course, my IS LRM's usage comes from a time when very few people mounted AMS, and even when they did it hardly helped given massed fire. My Clan LRM's, though? It's a lucky day when I can hit a mech, standing entirely in the open and in line of sight, because of AMS. Even with my LRM70 Warhawk, pushing past 600 damage in a match is hard, and requires liberal use of my "backup" 2CERML+2CERLL.

In your case, I'd argue that your IS LRM stats are weighted down by time using LRM's before you knew how to use them well - lots of wasted shots, before you learned when to fire, and when to hold fire. Your Clan LRM stats don't reflect that; they just reflect an experienced LRM user who was never bad at LRM's.

Stagger fire is *bad* for LRM's. Very bad. If it wasn't, nobody would have cared about tube counts in IS LRM boats.

With that said, I suspect you'll see Clan LRM accuracy shoot way the hell up with these new changes. I know I'd consider mounting CLRM15's and using them at very close range even though they'd be doing ridiculously low damage, because of non-stop cockpit shake while brawling. This, though, will be countered by lower per-hit damage, so the damage stat will become useful here.

Edited by Wintersdark, 15 July 2014 - 10:38 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Cathy, on 15 July 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Currently IS lrms are better, they launch in a group not stream fire like on clans.

Clan LRm's do look prettier if that's how you define better ?

I do suspect once clan LRMs can damage at any range, this patch, things will change drastically.

The alpha of a 45 lrm boat doing .5 per missile at 90meters is nothing to be sneezed at, as the stream will minimise spread

it will be effectively Streak 22.5

Cathy, Clan LRM's scale exponentially. At 90m, they do 25% damage - .275 damage per missile.

They do .5 damage per missile at roughly 115m.

[bluepiglet]

Wintersdark, on 15 July 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Cathy, Clan LRM's scale exponentially. At 90m, they do 25% damage - .275 damage per missile.

They do .5 damage per missile at roughly 115m.

Right, it's cakewalk to close in from 1000m to 90m without dying, and these small pulse lasers, which some mech can carry no less than 12 are just there for looking.

Edited by bluepiglet, 15 July 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[nemesis271989]

There are many people who do not understand that Clan LRMs are way better than I.S., in short words I will try to explain why:

I.S. LRMs Advantages:

1. Fires all missiles at ones (not always, depends on tube count)

This is it, there is no more advantages for I.S. LRM launchers.

I.S. LRMs Disadvantages

1. Weight, comparing to Clan LRMs I.S. LRM launchers are very heavy.
2. Packing two or more I.S. LRM launchers makes an I.S. Mech almost impossible to pack some other weapon systems to be effective at close combat as well as at the long range. ( I mean auto-cannons, and lasers)
3. If I.S. mech misses with LRM it means miss, 5-20 LRM missiles are sent to trash.
4. If Artemis is used it makes I.S. LRMs even heavier.
______________________________

Clan LRMs Advantages:
1. Relatively to I.S. LRM launchers Clan LRMs are almost twice lighter.
2. Artemis weight is not an issue for Clan LRMs.
3. Due to "stream" of missiles it is possible to do a partial damage (comparing to an I.S. LRM if I.S LRM misses then it deals 0 damage)
4. NO MINIMUM RANGE.
5. Packing 4+ Clan LRM10+ Clan mech is still able to pack dangerous close combat fire power including heavy auto-cannons and bunch of lasers.
6. Since a Clan mech is able to pack several Clan LRM10+, then firing all Clan LRMs at once will compensate the "stream" problem.

Clan LRMs Disadvantages:
1. AMS can pick off more missiles due to "Stream" mechanic. (Well, it is obviously being compensated with number of Clan LRM launchers that a Clan mech can carry on board, as well as a possibility to do a partial damage. See Clan LRMs advantages #3, and #6).


______________


Obviously, Clan LRMs have higher potential than an I.S. LRM launchers.
The rest is up to you to decide.

[Wintersdark]

bluepiglet, on 15 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Right, it's cakewalk to close in from 1000m to 90m without dying, and these small pulse lasers, which some mech can carry no less than 12 are just there for looking.

Yes, it is. I get that you're new, and by the tone of your posts overall you appear pretty dead set on your opinion here, but please understand: you're issue is simply a L2P issue.

LRM's, IS and clan both, are not strong weapons. They are usable now (for ages they were simply garbage) but they're only effective against new players who don't understand how to deal with them.

With any direct fire weapons, if you can see your target, you can hit it (and damage, range allowing). LRM's, however, are unique in that they have LOTS of passive and active defenses. Its trivially easy to close with an LRM mech safely on any map. You just don't run directly at them over open terrain. Or hell, you can if you're under an ECM bubble or with sufficient AMS.

there is a reason you pretty much never see LRM's used in high end play, and infrequently in general experienced people play. They are very effective against new players, but very weak vs. Experienced ones. As such, the defense is just learning how to play.

I've been around a long time and am reasonably capable, but certainly not top tier. Even so, I haven't died legitimately to LRM's in months. And seriously, clan LRM's make me laugh.

See, no matter how good the LRM boat pilot is, there are many actions I can take to neutralize their primary weapons systems. No other weapons have this disadvantage.

As to 12 small pulse lasers... Its one mech that can mount that, regular small lasers are a better build, and its absolutely not easy to play well nor is it particularly strong overall.