181 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 15 July 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

The problem isn't alpha strikes

The problem is players that don't understand it's not supposed to be nor was it never ever intended to be the "main" mode of attack. So, they used it as such. So, PGI, implemented the systems they did, like ghost heat, to mitigate big alpha strikes non-stop


you're right, it's not table top. That still doesn't mean alpha strikes were ever intended to be the "usual" form of weapon exchange as opposed to a last-ditch effort to take out an enemy unit before you go down.

It may not have been the intended, but it is something that random hit locations mitigated. My Stone Rhino would have been a total monster if on TT I could have put its 75 damage to one location. And I could fire that 75 points twice before only firing 60 and NEVER SHUT DOWN!

Pin Point is the mechanic that is breaking the game more than FLD.

Also... I have been redesigning my Mechs to be Alpha boats since 1986... This is the very first time I have heard complaints in 28 years of Alpha boating!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 July 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[Tombstoner]

SolasTau, on 17 July 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Earlier in the thread I mentioned I thought convergence was a bit of a red herring. A problem for sure, but more something that is exacerbating another issue. Quite literally this is why. The vast majority of weapon systems are *implied* to be mounted on limited turret systems that are tied into the mech's computer to increase the accuracy of those systems. In other words, for it to be more like Table Top, every mech should come equipped with aim bots that help you smart target enemy units. In fact, from a hard core sim perspective, giant, expensive walking robots SHOULD have serious aiming assists to make sure they are viable battlefield investments. Convergence is actually NOT as bad, at least in theory, as it is in TT.

FURTHERMORE, there is no reasonable explanation that all guns on the torso sections couldn't be installed to be pointing straight at a pre-selected targeting position. It was done for simplicity's sake, but it actually would make sense to do it on pretty much any mech that isn't like a Hollander II. My only reason for exempting the Hollander II is that it's basically a one trick sniper mech... let it aim.

The main difference of course is in TT you roll to see where your shot ended up hitting, and this is to *reflect* the idea of combat being chaotic. In an FPS, this randomness is replaced by your calculating (or frantic) defensive actions. In fact, the pinpoint accuracy of weapons is, if anything, something this community wants-reductions in randomness. And to that end, it feels disingenuous to say that you're unwilling to deal with "random" shut downs caused by you shooting too many guns at once, and then ask for more randomized attacks. (Feels, not is) In defense of this, *I'd* personally be fine with torso weapons having independent cross hairs, but it's likely a large chunk of more FPS minded players would say screw that. OTOH, they could also love it because it would help them feel like they really ARE piloting a giant freakin' robot. But it's a risk.

This is why I feel it all comes back to the heat system being overly simple. The problems with it being a binary system (on and shut down) as opposed to a scaling system with various levels of accumulating penalties leads to people playing in this style. The point from the dev's that I took away isn't that an Alpha is a 'last resort,' but that it should be scary on BOTH ends of it and used infrequently as a result of that fear of the consequences.

I'd like to say that this has been an awesome discussion so far. It's so cool how many people in here really care about the game and want to see well thought out, meaningful changes in spite of how hard they will shake up the current meta.

The complete lack of aim bots for supposedly advance equipment. ( TT game made in the 80's) is all the missing head shots.

I completely agree that the heat system is incredibly simple. i view it as changing clips. you can go full auto till you run out or in MWO over heat. The only reason i can see not being further developed is that it would be new to the FPS audience. they might not want to deal with a more sym like mechanic and view it as getting in the way of the pwe pwe fun.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Tombstoner, on 17 July 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

The complete lack of aim bots for supposedly advance equipment. ( TT game made in the 80's) is all the missing head shots.

I completely agree that the heat system is incredibly simple. i view it as changing clips. you can go full auto till you run out or in MWO over heat. The only reason i can see not being further developed is that it would be new to the FPS audience. they might not want to deal with a more sym like mechanic and view it as getting in the way of the pwe pwe fun.

Exactly. The heat scale in MWO is nothing but a "clip" of ammo needing to be changed. Those that don't ride the top of the heat scale are the losers when it comes to MWO.

Edited by lockwoodx, 17 July 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Tombstoner]

lockwoodx, on 17 July 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Exactly. The heat scale in MWO is nothing but a "clip" of ammo needing to be changed. Those that don't ride the top of the heat scale are the losers when it comes to MWO.

Whats worse are the weapons that excel in delivering large bursts of damage in short order. quad ac-2 pre nerf comes to mind and the 6 ppc stalker. both take advantage of the heat cap system. pop out dump damage and retreat before your target returns fire as you cool down. Makes pop tarting viable. The only reason we dont see 6 ppc boars heads are the hand actuators.

Heat based moment penalties have been badly needed for 3+ years.

Edited by Tombstoner, 17 July 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[Sandpit]

Tombstoner, on 17 July 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Whats worse are the weapons that excel in delivering large bursts of damage in short order. quad ac-2 pre nerf comes to mind and the 6 ppc stalker. both take advantage of the heat cap system. pop out dump damage and retreat before your target returns fire as you cool down. Makes pop tarting viable. The only reason we dont see 6 ppc boars heads are the hand actuators.

Heat based moment penalties have been badly needed for 3+ years.

agreed
Heat up, slow down, keep heating up, vision blurs. Continue ignoring heat affects, you slow down more and hud starts flickering as computer systems are affected by the heat. STILL ignore it? You're plodding along at 10kph, unable to rely on targeting, manually firing at enemy mechs, and ammo begins to cook off.

That right there would solve a lot of the heat issues in the game

[SolasTau]

Tombstoner, on 17 July 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

ac-2 pre nerf

AC2's got nerfed. I'm guessing this is a Ghost Heat related thing, but that doesn't take away the ridiculousness of the idea that AC2's were OP. I can imagine how they were OP in an FPS, but that's immaterial.

I'm just imagining at a table...

Player A: "Oh man, screw AC2's, they're OP as ****."
Player B: "Yeah, we need a house rule for those freakin' AC2's."
GM: "You guys mean AC20's right, with a zero at the end?"
Player A: "Nah, I have one of those on my Hunchie, it's not bad."
Player B: "Yeah. AC20's are well thought out and have great limitations, but those AC2's are freakin' h4x."

But that's just proof right there that anything CAN be over powered and amazing.

[AllSystemsNominal]

You have to admit...more chain fire and less alphas would make for a lot more interesting and action packed battles.

[Joseph Mallan]

AllSystemsNominal, on 17 July 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

You have to admit...more chain fire and less alphas would make for a lot more interesting and action packed battles.

Not the game I play though. I understand if you don't like Front loaded damage, but I do. and taking it out of MW:O would hurt the game I like.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 July 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

Not the game I play though. I understand if you don't like Front loaded damage, but I do. and taking it out of MW:O would hurt the game I like.

Solitary FLD isn't an issue. Super PPCs and AC40s grow to be an issue.

If you were forced to spread that FLD, it would be a non issue.

[Sandpit]

AllSystemsNominal, on 17 July 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

You have to admit...more chain fire and less alphas would make for a lot more interesting and action packed battles.

yup
by not actually punishing players for overheating, they're enhancing the problem.

I've never EVER given my opinion on ghost heat because
A: It doesn't matter, it's here and staying apparently
B: It never really bothered me much. I learned to adapt to it pretty early on.

So, with THAT said
Ghost heat does not solve what PGI wanted it to solve. It hampers more than it helps. It screws with canon stock mech designs that have to run loadouts that violate the ghost heat rules
It wasn't needed, it was another example of PGI putting a lot of effort and resources into something that simply was never going to fix what they wanted it to. The only thing it really did was make those wanting high damage alphas get creative in weapon selection to circumvent it, thus rendering it completely irrelevant.

A better way to fix it even with the way they've implemented the heat scale and heat sinks, would simply have been adding in detrimental heat effects like I mentioned above.
Hard numbers wouldn't even matter (other than prolonging how quickly a mech hits a heat threshold)

So for example:
25% heat = a 15% decrease in mech speed
35% heat = a 20% decrease in speed and convergence slows down by 10%
50% heat = a 30% decrease in speed and vision begins to blur making it difficult to make out details past 300 meters
75% heat = a 40% decrease in speed, vision blurs even more past 150 meters, convergence slows by 20%, and HUD flickers similar to the old PPC effects in previous MW titles and makes target locks difficult to obtain
90% heat = a 60% decrease in speed, vision becomes tunnel vision cutting down on peripheral vision, convergence slows by 30%, the HUD shuts down giving no targeting information and disallowing target locks, and ammo begins to have an increasing chance of cooking off (IE for every 5 seconds at or above this heat level until shutdown increases the chance of ammo cooking off by 5%)

That would increase TTK, cuts down on high damage alphas, implements a heat system that actually encourages players not to run hot like that, and doesn't place limits on actual builds like the Awesome.

I personally think that would be MUCH better than ghost heat and it would actually prevent the high alpha strikes continuously. As it is now, ghost heat only gets you to shut down faster, which if you're in a mech like a support mech, or sniper, or poptart, it's a non-factor because you're usually going to be behind cover while you're shut down early on in the match anyhow.

Now all those numbers were just for an example and could be adjusted as needed.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 July 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

Not the game I play though. I understand if you don't like Front loaded damage, but I do. and taking it out of MW:O would hurt the game I like.

I think my example allows you to run whatever you want but you have risks associated with that

[Josef Koba]

Maybe we could just transform MWO into a turn based type game where we each move a certain number of hexes and then fire all at the same time. Each player selects a target and the weapons he/she would like to fire at said target. The server rolls 2D6 for locations and the like. We'd still be in the cockpit but we could see the hexes in front of us. Or maybe 3PV will be the default. Maybe that's why they implemented 3PV. And then we could have a BT-style heat system, longer matches, and far, far less pinpoint damage. Heck, I'd still even play that.

That was only about a quarter-serious. I sympathize with everyone's concern. Truly. And there, in this community, are a LOT of fantastic ideas that I would love to see implemented in this game. I enjoy reading every one and often thing, "Dang, that's a friggin' awesome idea!" This community could make a truly epic MWO. One I'd pay a great deal of money for (I am hesitant to reveal how much I've already spent on MWO because I love the IP and, frankly, I enjoy the heck out of the game). But, unfortunately, and to paraphrase a widely disliked two-time Secretary of Defense, you go to war with the MWO you have, not the MWO you want. I do not think that most of the changes and ideas advocated for the heat system/convergence/alphas will EVER be implemented in this current iteration of MechWarrior. There might be tweaks here and there, but radical changes? Not likely.

Personally I don't mind the current state of the game all that much. It still has the flavor of BT. There are issues, of course. At the risk of being labeled a white knight, I think the devs have done a great deal to move the game towards balance. I'm still not a fan of ghost heat, but that's a reality I've had to face as it pertains to the other mechanics of the game. But over all, I find my matches enjoyable. And lately, they've lasted a great deal longer than they have in the past. I have two mechs that one might consider 'meta' (the DS and a Highlander that I've not even got out of basic and neither of which I've used in months). One Dire Wolf is equipped with the cheesy ERPPC/Gauss combo because, frankly, it's a fun build and hard to resist. Once it's mastered I'll probably go to a more balanced build. My prime uses a pretty lame Alpha AC2/something or other build. But I do not lament those who kill me with meta/cheese builds. I don't lament LRM spam. Instead I attempt to adjust tactics to combat those things, and I drop exclusively PUG or with one friend.

The moral of the story, I suppose (i.e. TL; DR) is that we're all still playing the game (or many of us are) and that I'm enjoying myself tremendously, just as I have for the past 1.75 years or so. I'm even enjoying solo drops more than I used to. Would I like some things to change? Heck yes, I would. Do I simultaneously hate change (ghost heat)? Yes absolutely. But at the end of the day it's not my decision to implement changes, nerf or buff weapons, or fundamentally alter game mechanics that have been in the game since before I started playing. I can offer some opinions, as have many of you, but that's about all we can do short of refusing to play and voting with our wallets. I believe, but do not know for sure, that PGI wants this game to be successful so that they can make money. From my perspective, it's been successful because I've spent a boat load of money on it. Keep the discussion going and the ideas coming, but I'd bet a paycheck that none of the radical ideas suggested in this thread will ever be implemented, no matter how good they are to the community.

See you on the servers. Alpha strike the crap out of me. Fight hard, and die well.

[Void Angel]

SolasTau, on 15 July 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

So... I'm new to MWO. I've been playing two weeks... and largely I have no real issues with the game outside of things that I remember being radically different from BattleTech. I used to run BattleTech games, so there's some differences between TT and MWO that kinda' grind my gears, but I always try to keep in mind that hey, this is an FPS, it's GOING to be different. So that said...

Let's talk about Alpha Strikes.

I was reading that the dev team thinks Alpha Strikes are a problem-that the prevalence of builds in meta that focus on doing the biggest Alpha they can is something that bothers the devs. This may be outdated info or whatever have you, but I was reading it just the other day. This got me thinking about how the board game deals with this issue, and in so thinking about that, I also got to thinking about the differences between MWO Heat and BattleTech Heat.

Most MechWarrior players I've ever talked to don't KNOW that the Heat system in BattleTech is BRUTAL. If you're mad that your mech shuts down at "max" heat, you may not want to read this link, 'cuz that's PANSY MODE for BattleTech. http://d20battletech.wikidot.com/heat

Important: I know BattleTech's heat system is designed for a TURN BASED STRATEGY game and would NOT be good for an FPS. But I *believe* that sticking a little closer to that table would vastly improve the "balance" of the game. If nothing else, it would make shake up the meta very hard and max damage alphas would probably disappear...or be made of Gauss Rifles exclusively.

So how do we get there? ...I'm not sure. I don't KNOW exactly how they translated a BattleTech turn to model heat and heat dissipation in real time. My best guess is they doubled the Max heat a 'mech could sustain at any one time (so 60 instead of 30 Heat) and then applied a linear amount of heat cooled per heat sink per "time period" that I also do not know. That "time period" is very key to this discussion. They may have painstakingly adapted a variant of the rules and it's just obtuse on the surface... but I more strongly suspect they took the concept and applied their own internal reasoning to it as that would be appropriate for an entirely different game.

Anyhow. I'm just responding to what I was reading. I don't know how current it all is, I'm late to this party, on and on. And if this has been talked about prior to me chiming in, well... it's till a good idea. So there. ;p

Heheh. Wait till Koniving sees this.

Oh wait, he has. What am I thinking?

[anonymous161]

I'm surprised they didn't implement a slow down or gradual damage, lower accuracy or a life support system, but then they never put eject in so guess there would be no point.

Why make a topic if you have no idea how any of it works or have any real ideas that may solve the problem? There has been too many topics like this to count for this to be relevant.

[SolasTau]

@Josef Koba and Joseph Mallan: Those are completely legitimate points of view.

@Darth Bane001: So because other people are whiners and post topics "like this" the discussion is irrelevant because you believe it does nothing. While we're at it, let's check to see if the world has stopped revolving around the sun and has started revolving around you... and nope.

The title of the entire thread is 'Devs say Alphas are a 'Problem.' And I meant that-according to the DEVS, it's a problem. Now, my assumption is that the devs aren't interested in our proposed solutions because they think they have better ideas. I think that ghost heat debacle has shown that they don't understand the issue at hand or just straight up don't understand the basic premise behind game design (such as how a game teaches you how to play it through game play cues). The DEVS themselves also state that they need to help players learn better to play their game.

We're talking about the very issues that the DEVS have stated are a problem that's on their radar. We aren't in here whining about weapons, we're saying the systems under those weapons are not working like they should which has directly created the problems in question. Maybe-hell, probably-they don't care what goes on in here. But if you give a damn, you don't stop just because another party appears to not be listening. You don't stop because someone says the horse has been beaten to undeath. You don't quit because the current WHATEVER is unfair.

You quit because you give up.

Are you giving up on MWO, or are you still here? If you're still here, quit being a whiner and do something constructive, and keep doing something constructive until it happens. I've been here three weeks now. I'm not about to quit just because I'm a noob and it's hard.

[divinedisclaimer]

1.) You can only fire one gauss gun or one AC/20 at a time, a forced half-second holdout after each.

Also do something about 2PPC/2AC5; it's just not fun playing against it. Maybe if you fire these weapons at the same time "recoil" makes the shots spread like oooone degree so they tend to hit an enemy mech in different components, at range.

[divinedisclaimer]

Darth Bane001, on 17 July 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

I'm surprised they didn't implement a slow down or gradual damage, lower accuracy or a life support system, but then they never put eject in so guess there would be no point.

Why make a topic if you have no idea how any of it works or have any real ideas that may solve the problem? There has been too many topics like this to count for this to be relevant.

Leg damage over X speed after "WARNING DAMAGED LEG ACTUATOR" (cue little siren) would be fun.

Loving how the total noob has more common sense than moooooost of the posters here.

[Tombstoner]

SolasTau, on 17 July 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

AC2's got nerfed. I'm guessing this is a Ghost Heat related thing, but that doesn't take away the ridiculousness of the idea that AC2's were OP. I can imagine how they were OP in an FPS, but that's immaterial.

I'm just imagining at a table...

Player A: "Oh man, screw AC2's, they're OP as ****."
Player B: "Yeah, we need a house rule for those freakin' AC2's."
GM: "You guys mean AC20's right, with a zero at the end?"
Player A: "Nah, I have one of those on my Hunchie, it's not bad."
Player B: "Yeah. AC20's are well thought out and have great limitations, but those AC2's are freakin' h4x."

But that's just proof right there that anything CAN be over powered and amazing.

Many TT games had an alternate meta game running in the back ground.... at least mine did. one battle effected the next and so on.... The ac-2 had a roll as the longest range weapon in the game, but that's what made it dangerous. 2 points of damage may not seem like a lot but when placed into a helicopter and can move 15-25 hexes, with many 20-40 ton mechs having only 2-3 tones of 16 point per tone worth of armor. Now take into consideration soft targets like ammo trucks. heck even a sitting drop ship is vulnerable to the ac-2 over time.

Once it was converted into MWO, the ac-2 was buffed 1960% in damage per 10 seconds. it became better then the ac-20 the only draw back was the lack of FLD and that's corrected by skill and huge torso sections. Now factor in 1 crit space and you can max out your 4 ballistic hard points very well. Then add in almost no heat. It was a problem child from day one. only draw back was the ammo.

With pin point convergence a quad ac-2 is really an AC-8 firing every .52 seconds for trivial heat. 32 damage in 2.08 seconds and 64 damage in 4.16 seconds vs one ac-20 shot every 4 seconds. nope not OP at all since the damage is spread...but its still a formidable damage output and most players can keep it on target at short to medium range.

Sorry but IS ac's should have been burst fire from day one. with clans getting stronger bursts with better damage drop off and range.

[Tombstoner]

Sandpit, on 17 July 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

agreed
Heat up, slow down, keep heating up, vision blurs. Continue ignoring heat affects, you slow down more and hud starts flickering as computer systems are affected by the heat. STILL ignore it? You're plodding along at 10kph, unable to rely on targeting, manually firing at enemy mechs, and ammo begins to cook off.

That right there would solve a lot of the heat issues in the game

While simultaneously adding in depth of game play. Over heating has serous consequences particulary if the TT game turn of 10 seconds was dilated out to 30 seconds. Heat can be a trivial issue only if the time frame your using is too short. besides heat neutral mech designs are paid for in tonnage that comes from speed/JJ, armor, weapons/ammo. Designing your game around the paradigm that heat neutral mechs are bad and then letting the 2x gause cat and 4x mg spider exist. - head explodes.

[Dirgez]

Noth, on 15 July 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

Doing that all dynamically in real time would just be a pain to implement and likely not a good gameplay experience as you'd be bouncing around the heat scale so often you'd have penalties, then suddenly you wouldn't, then suddenly you'd have more penalties and so forth. It's too much change in performance to fast and too often to be good gameplay in an fps.

I don't think it would be too hard to implement. You burst to 80% heat and you activate a timed debuff for whatever

ThomasMarik, on 15 July 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

• It slows you down.
  
• It lowers your accuracy
  
• It shutsdown your mech
  
• It risks Ammo explosions
  
• chance of hurting the pilot

...

For example, have a 10% speed debuff activate when heat crosses 60% and it will last 10 seconds. If you continually operate above 60% then the speed debuff will retrigger until your heat gets below 60%

Have an accuracy debuff trigger at 80% heat that will widen your crosshair and you weapons fire will randomly aim somewhere within the crosshair. Missiles would be affected with a wider spread and/or targeting lag. Again, make this a 10 second debuff that can retrigger if the mech's heat continues to surpass 80%.

Then over 95% heat there can be another debuff that triggers for 10 seconds that increases and or makes the mech vulnerable to an RNG roll and/or during a hit from enemy weapons to ignite combustible ammo in the affected section. Again, if the mech continues to operate at 95% by the end of the debuff then it will retrigger.

Again this would not be very hard to implement but it would take some time and testing.

[Blacksoul1987]

Sandpit, on 17 July 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

yup
by not actually punishing players for overheating, they're enhancing the problem.

I've never EVER given my opinion on ghost heat because
A: It doesn't matter, it's here and staying apparently
B: It never really bothered me much. I learned to adapt to it pretty early on.

So, with THAT said
Ghost heat does not solve what PGI wanted it to solve. It hampers more than it helps. It screws with canon stock mech designs that have to run loadouts that violate the ghost heat rules
It wasn't needed, it was another example of PGI putting a lot of effort and resources into something that simply was never going to fix what they wanted it to. The only thing it really did was make those wanting high damage alphas get creative in weapon selection to circumvent it, thus rendering it completely irrelevant.

A better way to fix it even with the way they've implemented the heat scale and heat sinks, would simply have been adding in detrimental heat effects like I mentioned above.
Hard numbers wouldn't even matter (other than prolonging how quickly a mech hits a heat threshold)

So for example:
25% heat = a 15% decrease in mech speed
35% heat = a 20% decrease in speed and convergence slows down by 10%
50% heat = a 30% decrease in speed and vision begins to blur making it difficult to make out details past 300 meters
75% heat = a 40% decrease in speed, vision blurs even more past 150 meters, convergence slows by 20%, and HUD flickers similar to the old PPC effects in previous MW titles and makes target locks difficult to obtain
90% heat = a 60% decrease in speed, vision becomes tunnel vision cutting down on peripheral vision, convergence slows by 30%, the HUD shuts down giving no targeting information and disallowing target locks, and ammo begins to have an increasing chance of cooking off (IE for every 5 seconds at or above this heat level until shutdown increases the chance of ammo cooking off by 5%)

That would increase TTK, cuts down on high damage alphas, implements a heat system that actually encourages players not to run hot like that, and doesn't place limits on actual builds like the Awesome.

I personally think that would be MUCH better than ghost heat and it would actually prevent the high alpha strikes continuously. As it is now, ghost heat only gets you to shut down faster, which if you're in a mech like a support mech, or sniper, or poptart, it's a non-factor because you're usually going to be behind cover while you're shut down early on in the match anyhow.

Now all those numbers were just for an example and could be adjusted as needed.


I think my example allows you to run whatever you want but you have risks associated with that

The movement speed penalties if adjusted properly would be the biggest limiter in effectiveness of hill humping alpha builds. but what about gauss? very low heat and a huge contributer to alpha