181 replies to this topic

[Bobzilla]

Why not just have penalties based off of heat gain in a 0.5 second period and toss GH? Then have the penalties increase the further up on the heat scale you are. So an Alpha from 3 PPC at 0 heat would hurt your movement, cause your hud to flicker or shut down for a period, and have a chance to cook ammo. An Alpha from 3 PPC at 50% heat would immobilize/shut down, great chance to cook ammo, and chance to destroy 1 weapon or mech even. Something along those lines.

As for it affecting new players, perhaps have it slowly increase during the duration of the cadet bonus.

[Satan n stuff]

Sandpit, on 15 July 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

The problem isn't alpha strikes

The problem is players that don't understand it's not supposed to be nor was it never ever intended to be the "main" mode of attack. So, they used it as such. So, PGI, implemented the systems they did, like ghost heat, to mitigate big alpha strikes non-stop


you're right, it's not table top. That still doesn't mean alpha strikes were ever intended to be the "usual" form of weapon exchange as opposed to a last-ditch effort to take out an enemy unit before you go down.

Mechs that are designed to alpha strike nonstop are usually better even in tabletop. There's no point having weapons you can't use, is there?

[SolasTau]

@CDLord: *High fives!* ...y'know, I hadn't noticed that yours was a D20 conversion to BattleTech until just now. That explains why everything is penalties to attack rolls and AC. >.< I mostly just dug up the first heat chart I could find that looked like the heat chart in the book that was EXPLICITLY not the one from Maximum Tech. Nice job on that!

@Koniving: So yeah. You are the guy who should've been running my Table Top sessions instead of me. Unfortunately, I didn't have anyone to show me the ropes at all and kinda' winged back when I used to run. We had great fun painting our 'mechs and coming up with balanced builds that were heat efficient. The essence of caring about your efficiency is something that is core to the BattleTech AND MechWarrior experience, and heat is basically an inconvenience as things stand in MWO right now.

That's not to say shutting down in mid combat while getting shot at isn't going to kill you. It probably will. That is to say the game in both table top and board game variants traditionally values having a cool head under fire, which like it or not, started in table top, and has been a staple of Mech Warrior games over the years. This game, heat is basically a hard stop on you shooting more, and very little else.

For everyone talking about new player unfriendliness, there's also a point to be made about what a new player can and cannot learn. A new player literally CANNOT learn about the ghost heat system because, for the sake of argument, let's say a new player will not dig into the forums or any other supplementary material outside of the game itself. There is no information on how that system works *in the game* beyond "Shooting more than this many of this weapons makes more heat than normal." A new player doesn't even know what 'normal' IS at that point. All the numbers don't mean anything when you're a NEW PLAYER. And I can say that with certainty.

As I said, I AM a new player to MWO. I have a deep background with the board game, and some history with MW2 and MW3. In context of that history, I *expected* (re: had an expectation based on historical evidence) of what the numbers would mean in MWO. Then I found out that they doubled all the armor, but left weapon damage the same, and I realized then and there that all my knowledge about everything BattleTech meant NOTHING in context of MWO beyond what mechs I generally liked.

So think about that. I have decent knowledge of everything BattleTech overall. I don't have a lot of the novels, I don't have every rule set book ever released, I didn't get to play as much table top as I wanted for sure, but I have a lot of knowledge about the topic and my first conclusion in MWO was that none of it means anything BECAUSE MWO is so distorted from all the rest of it, even the previous FPS incarnations. A truly new player has the relative advantage of having no preconceived notions, but the disadvantage of not even knowing what the various systems are.

Right now, the game teaches you that heat is something you can ignore until it shuts you down, at which point it will probably get you killed. In game design, that's a binary system. I yell at Blizzard all the time about binary systems (do this OR die) BECAUSE they don't present an opportunity to learn. Instead you learn not to do... whatever it was that you did that last time. Which objectively may have been playing the game perfectly correctly except for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

A game teaches you how to play it through gameplay. This game doesn't, and that is, in my estimations, what is so harsh to new players.

[TOGSolid]

Maybe before we try and go on a big ole tangent with heat scale penalties and all that, we should first focus on trying to get PGI to stop making heatsinks boost the heat capacity? Baby steps guys, baby steps.

[Sandpit]

Satan n stuff, on 16 July 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

Mechs that are designed to alpha strike nonstop are usually better even in tabletop. There's no point having weapons you can't use, is there?

?
Not sure what you're getting at here. There's a huge difference in weapons you can't use and weapons you can't just hold the trigger down on nonstop firing everything you have at once. There's not a single solitary mech (outside of a few scout type mechs) that I can think of that can move and alpha strike nonstop every round without overheating in TT. Even if you did find one or two or even a a few examples they msot definitely are not the norm. Most will overheat even simply standing still.

Alpha strikes were never meant to be how a pilot fires of his weapons consistently. It was an extreme measure used when you needed to deal a lot of damage very quickly at the cost of heat management.

[SolasTau]

TOGSolid, on 16 July 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Maybe before we try and go on a big ole tangent with heat scale penalties and all that, we should first focus on trying to get PGI to stop making heatsinks boost the heat capacity? Baby steps guys, baby steps.

THAT'S what they did? No wonder none of my max cap calculations make any sense. I've been trying to figure out why the heat cap was so inconsistent. I'd basically settled on 'they doubled it' as the explanation. Oy. Now I know why "double heat sinks" are more like "not-quite heat sink and half" heat sinks.

I'll just be over here, head desking repeatedly.

Edited by SolasTau, 16 July 2014 - 12:51 PM.

[Tombstoner]

TOGSolid, on 16 July 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Maybe before we try and go on a big ole tangent with heat scale penalties and all that, we should first focus on trying to get PGI to stop making heatsinks boost the heat capacity? Baby steps guys, baby steps.

But heat sinks must be able to hold heat in order to dissipate it, thus they must increase the cap....
Under the rules for real thermodynamic laws, heat dissipation increases with greater T deltas. So mechs should cool of faster the hotter they are.... just saying, its not a linear effect....i dont think PGI has a scientist on staff. lots of coders, artists, networking people but no one who has an advanced degree in science. thus we get ghost heat and heat spikes causing shutdowns on top of other weirdness. Such as, why the atlas can only mount one energy weapon in its arm, but my commando can mount 2.

[CDLord HHGD]

Tombstoner, on 16 July 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

.....real thermodynamic laws......

LOLz

[Mcgral18]

SolasTau, on 16 July 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

THAT'S what they did? No wonder none of my max cap calculations make any sense. I've been trying to figure out why the heat cap was so inconsistent. I'd basically settled on 'they doubled it' as the explanation. Oy. Now I know why "double heat sinks" are more like "not-quite heat sink and half" heat sinks.

I'll just be over here, head desking repeatedly.

Here's the math:

Each mech has a 30 point base capacity, and each single heatsink increases this by 1. The minimum cap you can have in MWO is 40, since there are 10 mandatory heatsinks.

Each engine Double Heat Sink (eDHS) increases the capacity by 2 and it cools at 0.2 Heat per second (H/s), although only engines rated 250+ have the built in 10 eDHS. As such, any mech with DHS and a 250+ rated engine has a minimum 50 capacity, which is increased to 60 with doubled basics because of the 20% boost.

Each external DHS is rated at 1.4 capacity and a 0.14 H/s. If you have a sub250 rated engine, you will require at least 1 additional external DHS, as such you'll have less than 50 heat capacity. Low engine mechs are at an even bigger disadvantage here, since they can never match the cooling of their larger engine brothers. Current Clan lights are shafted here.

So, to calculate capacity with a 250+ engine, all you do is 50+(x*1.4) to get your base capacity, where X is the number of DHS outside the engine.

For 15 DHS, this would be 50+(5*1.4)=57. Doubled basics brings it up 20%, so 57*1.2=68.4.


For sub250 rated engines, you simply have to change the formula a little. 30+(eDHS*2)+(external DHS*1.4)=total capacity.


For cooling, it's the same formula, but without the 30. You swap the 2.0 for .2 and 1.4 for .14.

The above 15 DHS would be (10*.2)+(5*.14)=2.7
Doubled basics for cooling is only 15%, so 2.7*1.15=3.105 H/s.

You'll also notice that this cooling is actually more effective than TT, which is just 3.0 H/s. This is true until you reach 17 DHS, which is the threshold the 15% bonus to the eDHS can no longer keep up with the gimped 1.4 external ones.

Edited by Mcgral18, 16 July 2014 - 01:47 PM.

[Hellcat420]

Tombstoner, on 16 July 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

But heat sinks must be able to hold heat in order to dissipate it, thus they must increase the cap....
Under the rules for real thermodynamic laws, heat dissipation increases with greater T deltas. So mechs should cool of faster the hotter they are.... just saying, its not a linear effect....i dont think PGI has a scientist on staff. lots of coders, artists, networking people but no one who has an advanced degree in science. thus we get ghost heat and heat spikes causing shutdowns on top of other weirdness. Such as, why the atlas can only mount one energy weapon in its arm, but my commando can mount 2.

heatsinks in battletech are heat pumps, not actual heat sinks.

[CDLord HHGD]

Hellcat420, on 16 July 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

heatsinks in battletech are heat pumps, not actual heat sinks.

I always thought of them more like a car's radiator because of the coolant..... When people say heat sink I think if the metal vanes off my CPU. Due to the use in Battletech I treated them as synonymous and universal.

[SolasTau]

Mcgral18, on 16 July 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

You'll also notice that this cooling is actually more effective than TT, which is just 3.0 H/s. This is true until you reach 17 DHS, which is the threshold the 15% bonus to the eDHS can no longer keep up with the gimped 1.4 external ones.

This is precisely the problem, however. It provides bonuses while taking out risks.

[Mcgral18]

SolasTau, on 16 July 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

This is precisely the problem, however. It provides bonuses while taking out risks.

Well, with 2x armor, 3x refire and 1x dissipation, things get weird.

[SolasTau]

Mcgral18, on 16 July 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

Well, with 2x armor, 3x refire and 1x dissipation, things get weird.

MUCHLY agreed.

[VanillaG]

Satan n stuff, on 16 July 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

Mechs that are designed to alpha strike nonstop are usually better even in tabletop. There's no point having weapons you can't use, is there?

Doing that leaves a lot of potential on the table for a mech. Ideally you would have layered ranges for your weapons and have the discipline to not fire certain weapons at certain ranges. A good example is a Stormcrow with 2xCERLL, 2xCERML, and 3xCERSL. At longer ranges you poke with the 2xCERLL, as they get closer you layer in 2xERML and when they get really close you stop with the 2xCERLL and add in the 3xCERSML while still shooting the 2xCERML. That loadout overheats quickly if you alpha it but can run relatively cool if apply the proper fire discipline.

[Hellcat420]

cdlord, on 16 July 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

I always thought of them more like a car's radiator because of the coolant..... When people say heat sink I think if the metal vanes off my CPU. Due to the use in Battletech I treated them as synonymous and universal.

the thing on your cpu is a heatsink. battletech used the name heatsink because they thought it sounded cooler.

[Rumble Chicken]

Had too,
After rolling up in the staging lanes
Firing up doin a burnout and making a pass, you would end up in the pits for 20 minutes with cool water running through the engine and an electric water pump ...ehh 20 minutes@ 450hp +/- 20

updated Alot,,,,800hp ....then later it would cool off after each run in the staging lanes waiting to run again...
Just saying

A 20 minute drive to work iis easy in the family car / 4 er's would disipate through the chassis and really het things up have to put a dash flush button ..just saying, great points in post btw

[TOGSolid]

Tombstoner, on 16 July 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

But heat sinks must be able to hold heat in order to dissipate it, thus they must increase the cap....
Under the rules for real thermodynamic laws, heat dissipation increases with greater T deltas. So mechs should cool of faster the hotter they are.... just saying, its not a linear effect....i dont think PGI has a scientist on staff. lots of coders, artists, networking people but no one who has an advanced degree in science. thus we get ghost heat and heat spikes causing shutdowns on top of other weirdness. Such as, why the atlas can only mount one energy weapon in its arm, but my commando can mount 2.

The first rule of realism in Battletech is you do not talk about realism in Battletech.
The second rule of realism in Battletech is YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT REALISM IN BATTLETECH.

Mcgral18, on 16 July 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

Well, with 2x armor, 3x refire and 1x dissipation, things get weird.

And 2x to 3x the capacity. Which makes alpha striking an even better choice because it's much more efficient to let a huge alpha rip and then hide than to get in and try to DPS due to the ****** dissipation.

Hell, we don't even have 1x the dissipation because double heatsinks outside the engine don't work right.

Putting us at the 30 heat cap that we're supposed to be at would drastically change the playing field. Two PPCs/two AC/5s would put the user at 22/30 heat, unable to fire again until they bled down to at least 7 heat and that's assuming they're not moving or jump jetting and from then on they'd either have to bleed all the way back down are be consistently one point off from shutdown. It'd take about seven and a half seconds to sink 22 heat assuming 30 heat dissipation via 15 true doubles (including engine sinks) over 10 seconds for a dissipation rate of 3 heat a second. With our nerfed doubles it'd take even longer. That's a long damn time to be not firing in this game when things get hairy.

Meanwhile the twin ERPPC Clan mechs would just instantly shut down.

Edited by TOGSolid, 16 July 2014 - 03:08 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Hellcat420, on 16 July 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

the thing on your cpu is a heatsink. battletech used the name heatsink because they thought it sounded cooler.

Yup and with that simple description they skewed a generation's worth of definition. I'm ok with it though.

[Satan n stuff]

VanillaG, on 16 July 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

Doing that leaves a lot of potential on the table for a mech. Ideally you would have layered ranges for your weapons and have the discipline to not fire certain weapons at certain ranges. A good example is a Stormcrow with 2xCERLL, 2xCERML, and 3xCERSL. At longer ranges you poke with the 2xCERLL, as they get closer you layer in 2xERML and when they get really close you stop with the 2xCERLL and add in the 3xCERSML while still shooting the 2xCERML. That loadout overheats quickly if you alpha it but can run relatively cool if apply the proper fire discipline.

No, ideally you would use weapons with similar ranges, with enough heat sinks and/or ammo to keep shooting until the target dies, and either such a massive range advantage that you'll only have to walk backwards at worst, or a high enough speed to keep the target in your preferred range indefinitely. Plenty of custom builds fit the bill. Firing discipline generally loses to more heat sinks and more damage on target.