That's part of the problem some have though. They don't want to learn. They want to come to the forums and QQ about nerfing and/or removing stuff. (don't believe me? check out this link) http://mwomercs.com/...-here-is-wrong/
so then we get the game watered down and watered down and watered down. So instead of them learning we get a game that keeps coming closer and closer to appeasing the "cod twitch" crowd.
I welcome any and all players. It means a bigger community. Instead of coming to the game and wanting something with a more complex system, they come to a game wanting it to come down to their "level"
right or wrong, that's where a lot of the hostility and animosity comes from.
With the clans we're getting more new players (judging by the post counts I've been seeing lately) who can't understand some of the anger and disappointment that many who have been playing for 2 years now have. That's understandable, especially with the old forums being archived, but at the same time the whole "shut up, I love the game!" doesn't help and simply isn't valid.
Well I can only hope that PGI opts to decide to somehow keep the mechwarrior spirit in the game and not dumb it down to the point of being, similar to what a previous poster stated, 'A generic future FPS that just happens to have mechs instead of people.'
Well I can only hope that PGI opts to decide to somehow keep the mechwarrior spirit in the game and not dumb it down to the point of being, similar to what a previous poster stated, 'A generic future FPS that just happens to have mechs instead of people.'
exactly and it seems sometimes that's essentially what PGI wants. The whole e-sports and seeming willingness to cater more to the traditional twitch shooter type fps player. Even still, even if they wanted to do that? That's would be great, fine, and dandy! Heck, I'd even call it spiffy.
As long as there's another "mode" that allows me and the others like me to play in that "hardcore" mode. They really got this one backwards. They SHOULD have catered more to the original crowd and added in another version or mode to allow that new crowd to play that game.
IE
Private matches and that sort of thing should have been geared towards the hardcore competitive crowd that runs the private leagues and the twitch style player wanting to customize the game more to their liking. The original crowd that gravitated to and really did contribute a good chunk of money to PGI LIKED the "harder" "thinking man's" shooter TEAM BASED game that required, enabled, and encouraged teambased group play. That's exactly what this game was billed as in its original form in the cb phase. That sloooooowly began to change throughout the ob phase.
Had PGI done that? They'd have a MUCH larger HAPPIER customer base and be raking in tons of cash doing their "whoopeee! we ain't rich but I'm getting a beamer!" money. Instead of (according to them) a "small company struggling to keep their lights on but doing well enough to keep developing the game so cut us some slack" dance.
LocationOn your six, chipping away at your rear armour.
Posted 15 July 2014 - 10:27 PM
I've argued for a changed heat system since closed beta. Why? Because this is supposedly "a BattleTech game" (says so right on the logo), and in BattleTech, one of the main conceits is that you're fighting your own heat build-up almost as much as you fight the enemy.
Piloting a 'Mech effectively is as much knowing when NOT to fire to keep your heat levels under control as it is knowing WHEN to fire, but that element is just plain missing in MWO. The ONLY thing you need worry about as regards heat is not going over 100%. Have a look at this chart:
Notice how the lines are equally long for TT and MWO? Disregarding pilot skills, TT and MWO has the exact same capacity (pilot skills add 20% fully Elited).
Notice how you can utilize that full capacity without a single penalty in MWO? That's the main difference; there's no increasing heat penalties in MWO and there really, really should be - if it is indeed to be "a BattleTech game".
And yes, I know there's other differences between TT and MWO heat systems; continuous vs discrete dissipation, dissipation rates, DHS capacities, and so on; as someone said above, the whole system could do with a re-write.
But a quick fix could be to triple dissipation and introduce proper heat penalties; the needed mechanics are already in the game:
Movement penalties: Same mechanic as for legged 'Mechs, but with different severity
Accuracy penalties: Same mechanic as jump jet reticule shake, but with different severity
Shutdown avoidance: Override mechanic.
Ammo explosion: In-game already.
The only thing they need to add is a warning before ammo explosion and a button to dump ammo before it explodes (because ammo explosions are generally match-ending events)
I've argued for a changed heat system since closed beta. Why? Because this is supposedly "a BattleTech game" (says so right on the logo), and in BattleTech, one of the main conceits is that you're fighting your own heat build-up almost as much as you fight the enemy.
Piloting a 'Mech effectively is as much knowing when NOT to fire to keep your heat levels under control as it is knowing WHEN to fire, but that element is just plain missing in MWO. The ONLY thing you need worry about as regards heat is not going over 100%. Have a look at this chart:
Notice how the lines are equally long for TT and MWO? Disregarding pilot skills, TT and MWO has the exact same capacity (pilot skills add 20% fully Elited).
Notice how you can utilize that full capacity without a single penalty in MWO? That's the main difference; there's no increasing heat penalties in MWO and there really, really should be - if it is indeed to be "a BattleTech game".
And yes, I know there's other differences between TT and MWO heat systems; continuous vs discrete dissipation, dissipation rates, DHS capacities, and so on; as someone said above, the whole system could do with a re-write.
But a quick fix could be to triple dissipation and introduce proper heat penalties; the needed mechanics are already in the game:
Movement penalties: Same mechanic as for legged 'Mechs, but with different severity
Accuracy penalties: Same mechanic as jump jet reticule shake, but with different severity
Shutdown avoidance: Override mechanic.
Ammo explosion: In-game already.
The only thing they need to add is a warning before ammo explosion and a button to dump ammo before it explodes (because ammo explosions are generally match-ending events)
that would only just further alienate newbs from getting into the game properly; pgi should not go this route IMO
that would only just further alienate newbs from getting into the game properly; pgi should not go this route IMO
With a higher dissipation the action is actually more fast-paced and frantic, but TTK will increase because you'll have to stagger your fire.
You'll fire more shots in the long run, but you'll alpha-strike less.
Currently you can fire 2xPPC + 2xAC5 nine times in a row on a heat neutral map, with 15 DHS and double-basic pilot efficiencies, if you blow cool shot and stay still.
With 30 heat cap and true double heat sinks (instead of 1.4 DHS), remove the added heat cap and dissipation from pilot trees, and you'll shut down on the 2nd consecutive shot.
With a high heat cap and low dissipation, you can shoot a heckuva lot of times before hitting heat cap, and by that time you've already messed somebody up.
you obviously are not well informed of pgi's priorities and worries, or probably missed that window where they thought the game was stagnating and gave us the god awful 3rd person view - the fact that you're ill informed does not grant you the right to belittle my input
as for the other argument; the game would change, for the best? depends, it's entirely subjective
i enjoy it for what it is now; it feels like a tank game lock and blow them up. you might not feel that way - well okay then, i don't see how dragging the TTK out is better than proper tank-like action
LocationOn your six, chipping away at your rear armour.
Posted 15 July 2014 - 11:06 PM
Mazzyplz, on 15 July 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:
you obviously are not well informed of pgi's priorities and worries, or probably missed that window where they thought the game was stagnating and gave us the god awful 3rd person view - the fact that you're ill informed does not grant you the right to belittle my input
Your "input" amounts to not having the insight to see that a change to the heat system to make it more in line with BattleTech lore isn't necessarily harder to understand than what we have now, nor does it automatically make the game "alienate newbs" (as you so eloquently put it).
If you care to elaborate on the whys and wherefores of your positions, I'd be happy to not "belittle your input", but since your "input" was minimal, you got a minimal effort reply.
I've been mulling this over in my head now and I've come up with a couple solutions that will not only discourage big alphas, but also "boating" to a degree.
Right now, let's talk their current system, ghost heat as it were.
In it's current iteration, firing x number of a certain kind of weapon type causes it to generate more heat than it normally would. Good on paper, bad in execution as ghost heat is circumvented by chain fire and keeping a half second between possible violations of the monitor. So here's my ideas that would actually make ghost heat more of a legimate concern when planning a mechs load out.
A) Change ghost heat from being fired, to constant. That closes the chain fire loophole current in the game as now the weapons are generating more heat regardless if you chain fire or group fire, or fire certain numbers in different groups.
B ) Ghost heat is currently an inconvience, rather than a threat, to low base heat weapons. Most LRM launchers, some of the SRM launchers, and UAC/Guass. On low heat weapons, change ghost heat to be additive, instead of multiplicative.
C) Broaden the range of certain weapon types that can cause ghost heat. Instead of X number of LRM/SRM 20/6s, 10/4s, etc, make it X number of LRM/SSRM/SRM launchers period. Same with Autocannons, but on a lesser degree, possibly lumping UAC/Normal AC/LB-X of the same size together. Beam weapons are fine as they are in terms of this since already high heat base with the exception of small lasers, but smalls also suffer from being painfull short range.
I think this is an achieveable fix as this already takes an already existing system, and makes it a much bigger consideration when planning mech loadouts. Do you want higher dps, but lower front end, or higher front end, but longer time between shots on your weapons, or a mix? This would lead to much less boating and more build diversity, because not everyone plays the big alpha playstyle, and currently, it's those getting punished the most right now.
At the moment the meta seems to be pigeon holed into one of three things: Big Alphas/Boating/Consumable spam. Often 2, sometimes all 3, being linked to one another. This leaves a sadly narrow option for players that want to try something different.
Quick example, my dire wolf is capable of a 95 damage alpha if I opt to do so. One match, River City night, I insta cored another player, I believe they were in a shadow hawk at the time not even 30 seconds into the match. I was not proud of this, they never even got a chance to see if their mech's build was effective and may have uninstalled the game and never played again.
Which in closing, brings me to a last point that has nothing to do with game mechanics. Player attitude. Yes, it's fun to play the current meta and feel awesome because you're sending your K/D ratio through the roof or whatever, but what about the others you're just facerolling. Sure some of them will take in stride and try to figure out something, often having to resort to the default meta, but much more often, they'll quit, and PGI loses more of their playerbase. Just something to think about.
With a higher dissipation the action is actually more fast-paced and frantic, but TTK will increase because you'll have to stagger your fire.
You'll fire more shots in the long run, but you'll alpha-strike less.
Currently you can fire 2xPPC + 2xAC5 nine times in a row on a heat neutral map, with 15 DHS and double-basic pilot efficiencies, if you blow cool shot and stay still.
With 30 heat cap and true double heat sinks (instead of 1.4 DHS), remove the added heat cap and dissipation from pilot trees, and you'll shut down on the 2nd consecutive shot.
With a high heat cap and low dissipation, you can shoot a heckuva lot of times before hitting heat cap, and by that time you've already messed somebody up.
You don't need the heat penalties to achieve that though. All the heat penalties add is an extra nuissance (what people view ghost heat as). To me the heat penalties just seem like a mess in a real time game where your heat is constantly changing instead of simply changing every 10 seconds (like in TT).
So... I'm new to MWO. I've been playing two weeks... and largely I have no real issues with the game outside of things that I remember being radically different from BattleTech. I used to run BattleTech games, so there's some differences between TT and MWO that kinda' grind my gears, but I always try to keep in mind that hey, this is an FPS, it's GOING to be different. So that said...
Let's talk about Alpha Strikes.
I was reading that the dev team thinks Alpha Strikes are a problem-that the prevalence of builds in meta that focus on doing the biggest Alpha they can is something that bothers the devs. This may be outdated info or whatever have you, but I was reading it just the other day. This got me thinking about how the board game deals with this issue, and in so thinking about that, I also got to thinking about the differences between MWO Heat and BattleTech Heat.
Most MechWarrior players I've ever talked to don't KNOW that the Heat system in BattleTech is BRUTAL. If you're mad that your mech shuts down at "max" heat, you may not want to read this link, 'cuz that's PANSY MODE for BattleTech. http://d20battletech.wikidot.com/heat
Important: I know BattleTech's heat system is designed for a TURN BASED STRATEGY game and would NOT be good for an FPS. But I *believe* that sticking a little closer to that table would vastly improve the "balance" of the game. If nothing else, it would make shake up the meta very hard and max damage alphas would probably disappear...or be made of Gauss Rifles exclusively.
So how do we get there? ...I'm not sure. I don't KNOW exactly how they translated a BattleTech turn to model heat and heat dissipation in real time. My best guess is they doubled the Max heat a 'mech could sustain at any one time (so 60 instead of 30 Heat) and then applied a linear amount of heat cooled per heat sink per "time period" that I also do not know. That "time period" is very key to this discussion. They may have painstakingly adapted a variant of the rules and it's just obtuse on the surface... but I more strongly suspect they took the concept and applied their own internal reasoning to it as that would be appropriate for an entirely different game.
Anyhow. I'm just responding to what I was reading. I don't know how current it all is, I'm late to this party, on and on. And if this has been talked about prior to me chiming in, well... it's till a good idea. So there. ;p
I had to like because you linked my website and conversion table. I conceptualized and wrote that whole website. It's outdated though, I haven't touched it in a long time.
The problem that this game has had with inserting TT mechanics into this game.. and one that has led to the high alpha meta that has existed in this game since Closed Beta, is the fact that you have pin point damage weapons and perfect convergence.
Since they cannot add convergence mechanics to the game to help balance out these aspects, they are rightfully starting to look at the ability to Alpha Strike.
Cannot add convergence? What? THey had it in Beta....
You don't need the heat penalties to achieve that though. All the heat penalties add is an extra nuissance (what people view ghost heat as). To me the heat penalties just seem like a mess in a real time game where your heat is constantly changing instead of simply changing every 10 seconds (like in TT).
Without that "nuisance" you end up with situations where you just keep shooting until you shutdown. With jump jets you can even land safely into cover after shutting down in mid-air from one last shot.
Actually, it's an abstraction, and if I can demonstrate how alpha strikes could sometimes occur:
Take a Fire Moth that runs the full 20 hexes, ending 18 hexes away from an Awesome that attacks with all three PPCs. Realistically, the PPCs had to be fired (by tabletop rules) within the last half-second of the turn, as the Fire Moth was only in range within that last half-second. That's an alpha strike, and the heat scale still goes up 30, down 28, 2 kept --- all basically instantly.
Perhaps a better comparison can be made if we use Solaris VII rules - same metric speeds and ranges, but the turns are 2.5 seconds.
While true, one must also note that in Solaris lore, mechs are modified to provide more flash and flare for a more 'spectacular' show.
Another to remember is that the ranges set by tabletop are a balancing control but not necessarily reflective of actual ranges. For example in your PPC example, how many of the PPCs hit? The long range to hit penalty is meant to reflect such changes.
After all, the reason for a class 20 autocannon's range being 270 meters is not because of that being the weapon's actual range. It's the optimum, kinda stretching it range for all shots of the burst to hit the same area on the enemy mech. Then, depending on the variant of class 20 autocannon, it could be anything from 4 to 100 shots for an Inner Sphere AC/20 in either auto fire or burst. Despite the burst and auto fire natures, these are still sabot, low to high caliber rounds that are very similar to what's fired by modern battletanks.
Much like a PPC, Gauss Rifle, and LRM's minimum range still allows you to actually hit the target within those ranges but it's a lot more difficult. For Gauss Rifle, it's due to charging up the shot. For a PPC, it's due to a charge up associated with the Field Inhibitor (turning it off allows the power to build faster but may cause it to explode). In MWO if you ever tried to hit something fast with a 0.75 second charge up you know it's difficult at close range. Some books describe certain named PPC variants as having a 2 second charge up delay before firing, which makes the 10 heat more manageable (think about this. 10 SHS, 1 PPC. Charge up. 1 heat, 1 cool. 2 heat, 1 cool. Fire, 7 heat. spike, 1 cool. Much more manageable than Fire, 10 heat, 1 cool, 1 cool, 1 cool..etc. Longer delays were good in battletech lore. Made the ride more comfortable, too.) Turning off the field inhibitor of course would cut that time down to much less, making it much easier to hit something at the chance of potentially overloading the weapon. ER PPCs supposedly charge up as well but it's much faster, often being depicted as less than a second. Hence the extra heat and lack of a delay. They get away with this due to a better system for managing the heat.
For example on LRMs functioning at less than minimum range:
"0 (gunnery skill) + 6 (minimum range) + 2 (attacker ran) + 1 (target moved 3-4 hexes) - 1 (target sprinted)"
For an LRM-15 at 1 hex (30 meters) for a Catapult A1. The target started at once hex and while it ran, it ran around to try and get behind me.
This also brings us to the summary tidbit, as if you take this that I fired after he ran, then my missiles did an "MWO Streak" and did a full 180 behind me to hit him. But we both know that isn't true.
Weapons fire for Catapult CPLT-A1 ([color="8080b0"]Koniving[/color])
LRM 15 at Cattlemaster CTL-3R2 ([color="c06060"]TestBot[/color]); needs 8, rolls 8 : - Glancing Blow - 9 missile(s) [color="008000"]hit[/color] (using Rear table) (w/ -4 malus).
Cattlemaster CTL-3R2 ([color="c06060"]TestBot[/color]) takes 4 damage to LTR.
Armor destroyed, 4 Internal Structure remaining
Critical hit on LT. Roll is 9; 1 location.
Location is empty, so criticals transfer to CT.
CRITICAL HIT on Engine.
Cattlemaster CTL-3R2 ([color="c06060"]TestBot[/color]) has taken 1 engine hits this phase.
Checking for engine explosion on 10, roll is 8.
Engine safety systems remain in place.
Note his engine had a chance of detonating or going critical, too. It's difficult to make happen but it does happen and they go boom. Just... kapow!
In the end, though, it's a summary and there are situations that fit within the rules but not within some of the established restrictions.
Now, one of the reasons that an alpha strike isn't possible is that the actual concept did not exist until 1992. It was then written as a "last resort of a screwed or panicking MechWarrior" and it only existed because in the Battletech multiplayer someone did something unheard of: He enabled all of his weapons and in doing so he shutdown instantly but got an instant kill. His mech couldn't move for over a minute. Ever since future mechwarrior games began to acknowledge it and gave it a name.
There's even a custom but unofficial ruleset for tabletop alpha striking in which it must done within the range of the shortest range weapon, then the rolls begin. If the convergence rule is allowed, there's one for the arms (or two if no lower arm actuators), and one for the torso and head. If convergence is not, then there is one for each side torso and one for the center torso's weapons, the head, the arm weapons and finally any turrets are treated separately with its own roll. Only the turrets could attack separate targets however with a penalty for two separate targets as the secondary attack. The total heat is applied to the penalty immediately which usually results in a shutdown, and the remainder of the turn as well as sequential turns are spent shutdown.
In the case of convergence it's possible for the strike to hit 2 to 3 locations. In the case of non-convergence it can hit up to 5 locations.
Typically before doing an alpha strike, the mechs tend to dump their ammunition because it almost always explodes if the strike is above 50 heat (as you judge by how hot you are in 3 and 6 seconds after firing by this custom rule). Even then if the heat generated in total is over 70, there is a roll for the auto eject unless the pilot disabled it, and if the heat in total is over 90 there's a roll for whether or not the mech shuts down safely or goes critical (boom) and it's a difficult roll to beat.
------
You might also notice every build with ER PPCs has DHS. Nothing could cool an ER PPC's less than 1 second charge up fast enough to prevent hitting 15 heat in a single spike, which would require the pilot to immediately hit override before firing just one of them.
You don't need the heat penalties to achieve that though. All the heat penalties add is an extra nuissance (what people view ghost heat as). To me the heat penalties just seem like a mess in a real time game where your heat is constantly changing instead of simply changing every 10 seconds (like in TT).
To mention it, the lines are not actually equally long.
In tabletop, it's 30 threshold + 10 seconds worth of cooling from your heatsinks. Take 10 heatsinks.
If you assume that 10 seconds is instant, then 30 + 10 = 40 threshold with Zero cooling.
If you assume that 10 seconds is not instant, then it's 30 threshold + 10 seconds worth of cooling.
Compare to MWO. It's 30 + 10 = 40 threshold + 10 seconds of cooling. That's 50, not 40.
Here's an example using a 9 ML Hunchback with 10 SHS.
In tabletop: 30 threshold + 10 seconds of cooling = 30 limit, 10 cooling.
3 heat per ML * 9 ML = 27 = 90% heat - 10 cooling = 56.67% heat.
Remember that 90%.
In dreamland with no cooling. 30 threshold + 10 threshold = 40, 0 cooling.
3 heat per ML * 9 ML = 27 = 67.5% heat - 0 cooling = 67.5% heat.
In MWO. 30 threshold + 10 threshold + 10 seconds cooling at 1 per second = 40 threshold + 10 cooling.
3 heat per ML * 9 ML = 27 = 67.5% heat - 10 cooling = 17 = 42.5% heat.
Now, funny thing. Here's why the heat got raised.
In MWO. 30 threshold + 10 threshold + 10 seconds cooling at 1 per second = 40 threshold + 10 cooling.
4 heat per ML * 9 ML = 36 = 90% heat - 10 cooling = 26 = 65% heat.
Hey wait, 90% again! Suddenly they must be equal, right?
Sound kinda familiar? That's what that graph of yours is based on, Stjobe.
It's not the same, it's not even remotely the same, and it gets much worse once the pilot skills are added in. Your graph assumes that Cooling = More Threshold. It's the same as saying it's pure threshold, no cooling. Now if your graph took threshold and added cooling rate underneath it... then you'd begin to see why it's incorrect.
Lets take 10 true DHS with 9 ML for fun and we'll see why we got ghost heat.
In tabletop: 30 threshold + 10 seconds of cooling at 2 cooling per second (10 DHS) = 30 limit, 20 cooling.
3 heat per ML * 9 ML = 27 = 90% heat - 20 cooling = 7 heat = 23.33% heat.
In graph making fantasy land: 30 threshold + 10*2 (10 DHS) = 50 threshold with 0 cooling.
3 heat per ML * 9 ML = 27 = 54% heat - 0 cooling = 27 heat = 54% heat.
In MWO with TRUE DHS as PGI envisions them: 30 threshold + 10*2 + 10 seconds of cooling at 2 cooling per second (10 DHS) = 50 limit, 20 cooling.
3 heat per ML * 9 ML = 27 = 54% heat - 20 cooling = 7 heat = 14% heat.
But wait, they adjusted the heat of ML to better match tabletop's percentage.
In MWO with TRUE DHS as PGI envisions them: 30 threshold + 10*2 + 10 seconds of cooling at 2 cooling per second (10 DHS) = 50 limit, 20 cooling.
4 heat per ML * 9 ML = 36 = 72% heat - 20 cooling = 7 heat = 36.36% heat.
Notice it's not even remotely matching and getting progressively worse.
But wait, the 1.4 rule.. Lets do it as originally intended with all DHS at 1.4.
In MWO with 1.4 DHS: 30 threshold + 10*1.4 + 10 seconds of cooling at 1.4 cooling per second (10 DHS) = 44 limit, 14 cooling.
3 heat per ML * 9 ML = 27 = 61.36(repeating)% heat - 14 cooling = 7 heat = 29.54(repeating)% heat.
Or with 4 heat per ML 9 ML = 27 = 81.18%(repeating)% heat - 14 cooling = 22 heat = 44% heat.
Remember they originally wanted to do 1.6 DHS.
In MWO with 1.6 DHS: 30 threshold + 10*1.6 + 10 seconds of cooling at 1.6 cooling per second (10 DHS) = 46 limit, 16 cooling.
3 heat per ML * 9 ML = 27 = 58.70% heat - 16 cooling = 11 heat = 23.91% heat.
4 heat per ML * 9 ML = 36 = 78.26% heat - 16 cooling = 20 heat = 43.478% heat.
No matter how you crack it, it's all screwed up. It only matches at 9 ML and 10 SHS at 90% heat for an alpha strike. That's what they based it on, and that's why it's 4 heat and not 3. Everything went downhill ever since.
Also in closed beta they did have heat penalties. Specifically ammo and heatsinks would take damage at a rate of 1 damage on a random component per second for every second you remained above 80% heat. That's why the flamer got nerfed so bad, it was killing players that still had armor.
-----
The only way for the graph to be true is if, when you fire that much in a single second, the heatsinks compensate and weaken, and the graph assumes that you get 30 threshold + 10 SHS or DHS that can switch between absorbtion and cooling but not both:
Example:
Lets say you use the heatsinks normally.
Spoiler
X mech has 10 SHS. He walks and fires 3 medium lasers.
0 seconds, walking begins and first shot is fired. Lets say this laser burns for one second.
0.1 heat + 3 heat = 1.1 heat.
1 second, cools 1. 2.1 heat + 0.1 heat (walking).
2 seconds, cools 1 heat. 1.2 heat + 0.1 heat walking. Fires a second laser half way into the second (1.5 heat).
3 seconds, cools 1 heat. 1.8 heat + 0.1 heat (walking) + 1.5 heat (other half of second medium laser).
4 seconds, cools 1 heat. 2.4 heat + 0.1 heat (walking). Begins a turn.
5 seconds, cools 1 heat. 1.5 heat + 0.1 heat (walking). makes the turn. Rolls for turning on asphault, succeeds.
6 seconds, cools 1 heat. 0.6 heat + 0.1 heat (walking). Fires a medium laser at 6.3 seconds, + 2.1 heat (7/10ths of ML laser).
7 seconds, cools 1 heat . 1.8 + 0.1 heat (walking) + 0.9 heat (remaining 3/10ths of third ML).
8 seconds, cools 1 heat. 1.8 + 0.1 heat walking.
9 seconds, cools 1 heat. 0.9 + 0.1 heat (walking; final of the 1 total heat for walking).
10 seconds, cools 1 heat. 0 heat.
And yes, I went advanced on it to reflect a real time scenario.
Now lets say PGI did things right and it went with you have 10 heat value within 10 seconds (instead of 1 cooling per second for 10 seconds) and you fired all 3 at once.
Spoiler
X mech has 10 SHS. He fires 3 medium lasers at the same time and walks.
0 seconds, Firing. + 9 heat. +.1 (beginning to walk).
1 second, cools 6. 3.1 heat + 0.1 heat (walking).
2 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 2.8 heat + 0.1 heat walking.
3 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 2.5 heat + 0.1 heat (walking)
4 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 2.2 heat + 0.1 heat (walking). Begins a turn.
5 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 1.9 heat + 0.1 heat (walking). Makes the turn. Rolls for turning on asphault, succeeds.
6 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 1.6 heat + 0.1 heat (walking).
7 seconds, cools 0.4 heat . 1.3 + 0.1 heat (walking)
8 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 1.0 + 0.1 heat walking.
9 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 0.7 + 0.1 heat (walking; final of the 1 total heat for walking).
10 seconds, cools 0.8 heat. 0 heat. (I realized toward the end it was supposed to be 0.44444 repeating cooling per second. But it'd be 0 here. Realistically it'd slowly rebuild in strength until restoring to 1 cooling per second so it'd cool extremely weak at 2 and 3 seconds and slowly build up again, still totaling 10 cooling in 10 seconds)
So it's possible if the heat system is done purely to Battletech standards in the purest form, that is you fire and the heatsinks absorb most of it right away but then weaken due to their heat build up, reducing their efficiency for the remainder of that period. This is the reasoning behind "Coolant Failure" rolls.
It's still assuming that with both versions the 10 seconds of cooling is simply NOT 10 seconds of steady cooling but simply a part of the threshold, and MWO's way is still wrong. It's either 30 threshold with 10 seconds of steady cooling, 30 threshold with 10 seconds of uneven cooling allowing a buffer to threshold, or no cooling at all. Those are the only ways that MWO can match tabletop in that graph.
Doing that all dynamically in real time would just be a pain to implement and likely not a good gameplay experience as you'd be bouncing around the heat scale so often you'd have penalties, then suddenly you wouldn't, then suddenly you'd have more penalties and so forth. It's too much change in performance to fast and too often to be good gameplay in an fps.
Then you extend the time frame for heat dissipation from 10 seconds to 20 or 30 seconds, then scale down damage and heat. this dilates the TT turn into something less spiky while still retaining the damage output. Heat management then becomes a much serous issue when you add in heat penalties that last for a decent amount of time.
The needs of a turn based game = 1 shot per TT or 10 seconds. a FPS needs many many more shots but damage and heat needs to be scaled down just to not break the game balance. This was done incorrectly 3 years ago leaving all weapons doing at least 50% more damage then TT. add in convergence and that's why you die in seconds.
Strypewolf, on 15 July 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:
Well I can only hope that PGI opts to decide to somehow keep the mechwarrior spirit in the game and not dumb it down to the point of being, similar to what a previous poster stated, 'A generic future FPS that just happens to have mechs instead of people.'
Too late.
Koniving, on 16 July 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:
To mention it, the lines are not actually equally long.
In tabletop, it's 30 threshold + 10 seconds worth of cooling from your heatsinks. Take 10 heatsinks.
If you assume that 10 seconds is instant, then 30 + 10 = 40 threshold with Zero cooling.
If you assume that 10 seconds is not instant, then it's 30 threshold + 10 seconds worth of cooling.
Compare to MWO. It's 30 + 10 = 40 threshold + 10 seconds of cooling. That's 50, not 40.
Here's an example using a 9 ML Hunchback with 10 SHS.
In tabletop: 30 threshold + 10 seconds of cooling = 30 limit, 10 cooling.
3 heat per ML * 9 ML = 27 = 90% heat - 10 cooling = 56.67% heat.
In dreamland with no cooling. 30 threshold + 10 threshold = 40, 0 cooling.
3 heat per ML * 9 ML = 27 = 67.5% heat - 0 cooling = 67.5% heat.
In MWO. 30 threshold + 10 threshold + 10 seconds cooling at 1 per second = 40 threshold + 10 cooling.
3 heat per ML * 9 ML = 27 = 67.5% heat - 10 cooling = 17 = 42.5% heat.
Now, funny thing. Here's why the heat got raised.
In MWO. 30 threshold + 10 threshold + 10 seconds cooling at 1 per second = 40 threshold + 10 cooling.
4 heat per ML * 9 ML = 36 = 90% heat - 10 cooling = 26 = 65% heat.
Sound kinda familiar? That's what that graph of yours is based on, Stjobe.
It's not the same, it's not even remotely the same, and it gets much worse once the pilot skills are added in.
The most heinous issue i have with the heat system is the difference between instantaneous heat spikes and accumulated heat over time. Three ppc shots do NOT auto shut down your mech. They do according to PGI. Your supposed to shut down only if you have 30+ heat after 10 seconds of heat dissipation, not i alpha 3 ppcs and shutdown. PGI implemented the heat concept completely wrong and presumed heat neutral mechs where bad...and proceeded to add 2x gauss cats and 4 mg spiders.
If PGI want to continue the path of a heat capacity system then heat cap should scale with mech tonnage since mass can hold heat. The atlas should be able to hold 5x more heat then a commando. you dont build mechs out of different melting point materials.
Without that "nuisance" you end up with situations where you just keep shooting until you shutdown. With jump jets you can even land safely into cover after shutting down in mid-air from one last shot.
Lowering the heat cap and changing dissipation basically counters that. The speed at which the heat would dissipate makes the penalties vanish far too quick (even with the current dissipation the penalties would vanish way too quick) for them to be more than a nuisance.
The most heinous issue i have with the heat system is the difference between instantaneous heat spikes and accumulated heat over time. Three ppc shots do NOT auto shut down your mech. They do according to PGI. Your supposed to shut down only if you have 30+ heat after 10 seconds of heat dissipation, not i alpha 3 ppcs and shutdown. PGI implemented the heat concept completely wrong and presumed heat neutral mechs where bad...and proceeded to add 2x gauss cats and 4 mg spiders.
If PGI want to continue the path of a heat capacity system then heat cap should scale with mech tonnage since mass can hold heat. The atlas should be able to hold 5x more heat then a commando. you dont build mechs out of different melting point materials.
Disagree on the tonnage based heat cap variation (it can make sense, but only if we also have TT's incompatible reactors where an Atlas's XL 300 engine was over 12 million where a Jenner's XL 300 was less than 4 million), then it'd make some sense because it is a combination of the reactor and the safe limits of the pilot that decide threshold in TT. (Actually more specifically it's the pilot; even with cooling jackets these guys are not in the best of conditions).
Even with a lot of DHS and two ER PPCs, you'd want to wear even less and it'd be in excess of 120 degrees in the cockpit from just firing 1; depending on which brand of ER PPC.
But if you go back to that post you'll see how that would work.
"The only way for the graph to be true is if, when you fire that much in a single second, the heatsinks compensate and weaken, and the graph assumes that you get 30 threshold + 10 SHS or DHS that can switch between absorbtion and cooling but not both:
Example:
Lets say you use the heatsinks normally. This is the simplified way.
Spoiler
X mech has 10 SHS. He walks and fires 3 medium lasers.
0 seconds, walking begins and first shot is fired. Lets say this laser burns for one second.
0.1 heat + 3 heat = 1.1 heat.
1 second, cools 1. 2.1 heat + 0.1 heat (walking).
2 seconds, cools 1 heat. 1.2 heat + 0.1 heat walking. Fires a second laser half way into the second (1.5 heat).
3 seconds, cools 1 heat. 1.8 heat + 0.1 heat (walking) + 1.5 heat (other half of second medium laser).
4 seconds, cools 1 heat. 2.4 heat + 0.1 heat (walking). Begins a turn.
5 seconds, cools 1 heat. 1.5 heat + 0.1 heat (walking). makes the turn. Rolls for turning on asphault, succeeds.
6 seconds, cools 1 heat. 0.6 heat + 0.1 heat (walking). Fires a medium laser at 6.3 seconds, + 2.1 heat (7/10ths of ML laser).
7 seconds, cools 1 heat . 1.8 + 0.1 heat (walking) + 0.9 heat (remaining 3/10ths of third ML).
8 seconds, cools 1 heat. 1.8 + 0.1 heat walking.
9 seconds, cools 1 heat. 0.9 + 0.1 heat (walking; final of the 1 total heat for walking).
10 seconds, cools 1 heat. 0 heat.
And yes, I went advanced on it to reflect a real time scenario.
Now lets say PGI did things right and it went with you have 10 heat value within 10 seconds (instead of 1 cooling per second for 10 seconds) and you fired all 3 at once. This is the realistic way.
Spoiler
X mech has 10 SHS. He fires 3 medium lasers at the same time and walks.
0 seconds, Firing. + 9 heat. +.1 (beginning to walk).
1 second, cools 6. 3.1 heat + 0.1 heat (walking).
2 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 2.8 heat + 0.1 heat walking.
3 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 2.5 heat + 0.1 heat (walking)
4 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 2.2 heat + 0.1 heat (walking). Begins a turn.
5 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 1.9 heat + 0.1 heat (walking). Makes the turn. Rolls for turning on asphault, succeeds.
6 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 1.6 heat + 0.1 heat (walking).
7 seconds, cools 0.4 heat . 1.3 + 0.1 heat (walking)
8 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 1.0 + 0.1 heat walking.
9 seconds, cools 0.4 heat. 0.7 + 0.1 heat (walking; final of the 1 total heat for walking).
10 seconds, cools 0.8 heat. 0 heat. (I realized toward the end it was supposed to be 0.44444 repeating cooling per second. But it'd be 0 here. Realistically it'd slowly rebuild in strength until restoring to 1 cooling per second so it'd cool extremely weak at 2 and 3 seconds and slowly build up again, still totaling 10 cooling in 10 seconds)
"
Alternatively, as I mentioned before PPCs and ER PPCs charge. If they were Lord's Light PPCs, they'd buffer 2 seconds with a rather bright glow.
Firing 3 at once...
0 seconds Charge begins, 1.5 heat (0.5 per PPC).
1 seconds charge continues, 3 heat (1 per PPC) (4.5 total).
2 seconds, charge finishes and PPCs fire. 16.5 heat spiked. (21 total) By this point the heatsinks are glowing.
3 seconds, weapons are still warm. (+4.5 heat [1.5 per PPC]) (25.5 total)
4 seconds, weapons are cooling. (+3 heat [1 per PPC]) (28.5 total)
5 seconds, weapons are nearly cooled (+1.5 heat, 0.5 per PPC) (30 total).
6 seconds, weapons are cooling, heatsinks dissipating.
Remainder of cooling time is spent to cool the heatsinks.
Lord's Light PPCs are particularly known for long charge times and favored because of how cool they run due to the prolong charging delay, many of the others are a fair bit faster to fire but as such the heat spikes faster and higher.
And that method can work for either true to tabletop system without the heat spiking. Whether the simplified (first) or realistic (second). It'd also give you reason to favor a slower charging variant over a faster charging variant; makes it easier to fire more of them at once without hitting penalties quite so fast. It'll also cool you faster before penalties could kick in and leave you more 'stable' to use other weapons without hurting efficiency as badly if you did use fewer of them at once.
But again it'd require a complete overhaul of the heat system and how it works. PGI will never do it. The closest we'll get is the first (simplified) true to tabletop system. And even that isn't likely.
---------------
Now, on the one shot per tabletop... The thing is you had a "use" per 10 seconds, not a single shot. For example the Victor's Pontiac 100 AC/20 is actually supposed to be a 100 shot weapon. As in 100 individual shots done in a rapid burst that in the book it's in is described as occuring within 1 to 2 seconds and requiring 5 seconds to reload.
A single 'click' of the trigger will burn through the entire magazine, and the Victor's primary ammunition feed requires the left hand to extract a cassette from the right torso and then feed it into the upper left side of the right arm in a pre-programmed movement that can be done safely during normal operation. If for some reason the left arm is destroyed, there is a secondary feed that requires the Victor's right arm to fold as high as possible so that the ammo can be funneled through the shoulder and into the upper reserve ammunition port. This secondary feed is known to have problems when under fire, as the secondary feed requires the arm to be completely locked and could jam if the right arm is hit during this time.
Then there's also the machine guns, which we know do not do 2 damage in 1 shot, if an AC/2 Whirlwind-L model at 30mm does 0.2 damage per saboted anti-tank round.
There's also many medium lasers described as requiring multiple shots to do 5 damage, with a special mention of the Rassal Blue Beam as being one of the few medium lasers to be able to do 5 damage in 1 shot, and it requires a secondary capacitor which pre-charges and focuses the laser which causes vibration and EM Interference. It's also mentioned to be Difficult to Maintain. It's beam color is blue and it's said to do its damage in less than 0.5 seconds, but requires more some seconds of pre-charging before it can fire, and cannot be used again for more than 6 seconds otherwise it would strip its cooling jacket. As such the weapon became praised for its destructive potential but criticized for its combat impracticality. The concept was used to make the Bombast Laser later on.
Aiming (or how tabletop handles the "to hit" and location hit damage by rolling) was simplified as otherwise we'd need a 500+ page book just to cover every weapon variant and in the case of the Victor's AC/20 we'd need to make 100 goddamn rolls! O_O
There's more than 60 standard medium laser variants. The Rassal Blue Beam is just one of the most detailed. Some never stop firing and it's a constant beam for up to "5" seconds. Some have several short beams. Some have fewer but longer beams. There's actually a pink medium laser. Of the 60+ variants, 44 of them are truly unique from the others.
Edit: (Rassal Blue Beam being a blue beam medium laser able to do 5 damage in a single shot, rather 5 damage in 10 seconds). Oops.
Single sentence, eh? One that describes the 'biggest gameplay balance issues'...
I can do that, AND, my sentence will include past, present, and future balance issues, UNTIL PGI wakes the F up, pulls their heads out of their butts, fires their current product manage who OBVIOUSLY knows little about BattleTech, its lore, and knows probably even less about all the previous iterations of the computer versions of the game.
Here's my sentence:
MWO lacks a REAL heat affects table.
You can't take something that was SO significant to balance in the TT versions that it has been printed on EVERY 'mech sheet for the past 30 years, and has been present in almost EVERY OTHER computer version of quality, and expect to be able to have balance.
It was a moronic, pants-on-head sofa-king-we-tarred-it move to NOT have it from the on set that damn near EVERY balance issue can be tied back to NOT having it.
Why should lights and other fast 'mechs be able to move at TOP speed riding 99.9% heat capacity?
Why should a 'mech be able to rapid fire between 4 and 6 PPC's and ONLY suffer a temporary shut down, occasionally?
Why should 'mechs be able to be at 99.9% heat and be able to fire 2 PPC's and a gauss with pin point accuracy at a target over a mile away, consistently?
So on and so forth.
Until this ugly disparity is resolved:
MWO will ALWAYS have significant balance issues.
ALWAYS.
Edited by Dimento Graven, 16 July 2014 - 10:25 AM.
4
Sandpit, on 15 July 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:
I conceptualized and wrote that whole website. It's outdated though, I haven't touched it in a long time. 
