104 replies to this topic

[The Dreaded Baron B Killer]

kamiko kross, on 17 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

I'm more interested in game balance than physics to be honest. Right now the only role is damage dealer. Lights need to fight to get any rewards. Right now, lights fight successfully ( if sufficiently skilled) using their speed and agility. That right there are their only two forms of attack and defence.
If Assaults and heavies could just lolrush them and swat them-that then gives them yet another tool they don't need to be even more dominant. Those collisions people are screaming for would also affect mediums adversely.
Assault pilot meets medium in close combat, and can't keep him in gun trail-what to do? I know! he could just mash into him and use his superior mass to negate the other guy's skills and speed ( I win because I'm BIGGER).....not keen on that. Those two heavier classes need to have SOME form of drawbacks and currently these are somewhat lower speed and agility-even saying that, many heavies and quite a few assaults can STILL keep gun trail on a 98kph medium with ease....

In short, a light shouldn't be able to jam an assault to a stop by leg humping-but those same assaults and heavies should not be given yet another way to dominate, don't you think those two mech classes already do enough?
Another solution needs to be proposed really....

your perspective is extremely skewed.

How many times have you seen a full lance or two chase around a light...

now.. imagine how more careful that lance would be knowing that if they are just focusing on shooting and not looking can bump into team mates and do serious damage?

imagine not just drawing their attention in a light, but actually making the dumber pilots knock into each other... giving you a better chance to kill them since they're scraping the armor off each other...

Btw this thread is about physics... not complaining about lights role in the game. X)

[Clit Beastwood]

BaronBastardKiller, on 17 July 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

no, I pretty much ignored everything because it was wrong... read what the guy above said about mass and transferred energy that happens from two objects of varying mass and speed colliding... like I said before in my original posts... the points being made were childish at best and don't add up, and I've chosen to ignore those kinds of points people make.

The games physics engine won't properly handle the kinetic energy transfer - all my original post was referencing was the relative speed between two moving bodies, and the resulting impact being significant "Just understand that if a 50 ton mech hits a 100 ton mech at a combined speed of 150+ kph, they're both going down. It's not going to be an Atlas mowing down everything. " - as in, the knockdown mechanic would likely knock both mechs down. I said this in response to many many posts I've seen that people think an Atlas is, by itself, going to wade through an entire team and knock everyone down. If someone half your weight tackles you in the knees at full speed, you'd probably go down too. Your follow up reply, "I have no problem with that.... Just show me a medium that runs that fast... currently there are maybe only one or two lights that run those speeds.... Or are you not currently aware of what most medium mechs run?" Of course I know what speeds most medium mechs run - I own and have mastered all of them. For the purposes of my post, one mech going 100 and one mech going 150, headed towards each other, would result in a relative velocity of 150kph. And there are far from "one or two lights" that go 150 - all of them do (IS lights). Nowhere in my initial post did I state or allude to either mech going 150kph, however - just one mech going 100 and the other mech going 50. Your follow-up with Ecrof, "shows them at clocking at around 120-130... although with elited skills could get close to 150 i suppose... however OP said 150+... over 150...."Yep, I said 150+, because there are plenty of mediums running around at 100-102kph, and most Atlases (Atlai? Did that ever get settled?) won't go slower than 57kph. Your post on page 3, "no, I pretty much ignored everything because it was wrong... read what the guy above said about mass and transferred energy that happens from two objects of varying mass and speed colliding... like I said before in my original posts... the points being made were childish at best and don't add up, and I've chosen to ignore those kinds of points people make." That's fine, you can choose to ignore what you want, but it's not wrong - add 100 to 50 and you get 150. That's not wrong. I didn't allude to any transfer of kinetic energy, I simply stated that two mechs of dissimilar masses would both be affected by the impact. Look up the history of the knockdown mechanic for a primer. I don't see how adding two numbers together, or inferring that both mechs involved in a collision would be affected would be childish. Ignoring the data and assuming a fairly veteran player might be unfamiliar with the speeds of the mechs in-game is a bit childish. Again, I don't really care as you don't really matter to me, but think before slinging mud.

Edited by Fierostetz, 17 July 2014 - 11:41 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

BaronBastardKiller, on 17 July 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

your perspective is extremely skewed.

How many times have you seen a full lance or two chase around a light...

now.. imagine how more careful that lance would be knowing that if they are just focusing on shooting and not looking can bump into team mates and do serious damage?

imagine not just drawing their attention in a light, but actually making the dumber pilots knock into each other... giving you a better chance to kill them since they're scraping the armor off each other...

Btw this thread is about physics... not complaining about lights role in the game. X)

Yes, there are a lot of new pilots that knock into each other, but the more you play and win, the less of it you see. Pugging is still straight up bumper-mechs though. Lots of new guys in there. I've long felt this game needed an "arcade mode", with no rewards OR penalties, so people could learn to drive in a guilt-free environment without affecting their stats (for better or worse). Also, a good place for drunk people to play without hobbling their team.

[Clit Beastwood]

kamiko kross, on 17 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

I'm more interested in game balance than physics to be honest. Right now the only role is damage dealer. Lights need to fight to get any rewards. Right now, lights fight successfully ( if sufficiently skilled) using their speed and agility. That right there are their only two forms of attack and defence.
If Assaults and heavies could just lolrush them and swat them-that then gives them yet another tool they don't need to be even more dominant. Those collisions people are screaming for would also affect mediums adversely.
Assault pilot meets medium in close combat, and can't keep him in gun trail-what to do? I know! he could just mash into him and use his superior mass to negate the other guy's skills and speed ( I win because I'm BIGGER).....not keen on that. Those two heavier classes need to have SOME form of drawbacks and currently these are somewhat lower speed and agility-even saying that, many heavies and quite a few assaults can STILL keep gun trail on a 98kph medium with ease....

In short, a light shouldn't be able to jam an assault to a stop by leg humping-but those same assaults and heavies should not be given yet another way to dominate, don't you think those two mech classes already do enough?
Another solution needs to be proposed really....

I think he's alluding to consequences for piloting like a moron - yes, mechs SHOULD take damage from whackin' into each other - but BOTH mechs should take damage. If a Jenner jump-jets and hits an atlas in the head at 100kph, that Atlas should get knocked down, and the jenner should accrue significant damage. Assault and heavy mechs do not "dominate", but their tolerance for mistakes is much greater). Light mechs can perform on-par for the most part, you just have to work harder and be better.

[Alistair Winter]

Ansgar Odinson, on 17 July 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

The problem is in the basic math here. When two mechs run at each other each going 50kph it is not a 100 kph collision. So long as both mechs are the same mass it is as each of them has struck a wall at...... 50 kph not 100. Each mech absorbs half of the energy. Now if one mech is considerably larger than the other then it would transfer a great deal more energy to the smaller mech causing it to take the brunt of the force/damage. According to physics a medium mech running at an atlas and colliding with it at 150 kph should do very little to the atlas while in turn doing a great deal of damage to itself. Think about a sports car ramming a semi truck head on. Semi will be slightly slowed (maybe some cockpit shake) but the sports car is devastated and pushed way back. They need to give collisions realistic physics then this could be cool. Mass should be king in a collision.

Never actually studied physics. If you are correct, then I've learned something new today about collisions.

[Clit Beastwood]

Alistair Winter, on 17 July 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Never actually studied physics. If you are correct, then I've learned something new today about collisions.

The implementation mentioned here assumes Cryengine3's physics modeling is a lot better than it is. I'm still pretty sure the way it would be implemented would be based on the relative speeds + mass of both mechs (referenced from an XML table and maybe randomized). If the tiny mech is moving fast and hits above the center of gravity, it should trigger a knockdown for both. If a locust hits an atlas in the back of the leg at 172kph, I'd expect a cored or legged locust plus a staggering or knocked down atlas. I think knockdowns would be hilarious and fun, but also easily exploitable. I, for one, would jump-jet assaults in the face to knock them down and drop an arty as the fatty was tipping. That sounds hilarious to do to friends in private drops

[stjobe]

Fun fact time:

As per the stacking rules (Total Warfare, p. 57), only one 'mech can occupy a single hex (there may be other units in there, but not more than one 'mech).

If one assumes that each 'mech is in the center of the hex (admittedly, it can be anywhere in the hex since it's not specified), anything closer than 30 meters is a collision

(Actually, you can't voluntarily move into a hex occupied by another 'mech at all (except by charging or DFA); involuntarily moving into a hex occupied by another 'mech (e.g. by falling or skidding) causes a domino effect (Total Warfare, p. 152), which may cause a collision and even falls to one or both 'mechs).

[The Dreaded Baron B Killer]

Fierostetz, on 17 July 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Ignoring the data and assuming a fairly veteran player might be unfamiliar with the speeds of the mechs in-game is a bit childish. Again, I don't really care as you don't really matter to me, but think before slinging mud.

The data you provide is not accurate so ignoring makes sense to me, if that irks you, or bruises your ego, then that's really not my problem bub.

"fairly veteran"... I don't care if you are a vet... doesn't mean you're a math genius or understand Physics... or the programming of the cryengine system for that matter....or the physics engine implementation it's capable of (if properly programmed).

as for slinging mud, nobody slung mud, I simply pointed out the errors in your comments, which obviously irked you, since you don't like appearing to be wrong. The fact you wrote that small essay response kinda shows that you really need to crack open a beer and let go of your opinionated ways.

your logic and view of seeing things doesn't make them automatically right because they add up. also you mastered all the mechs? fantastic... is everyone running lights with the builds you have? Seriously... I watched today and I didn't see a single light go over 137kph... All of them packing large lasers and ACs and whatnot. Since the clans came everyone changed their builds... so your original argument is wrong sadly. don't get upset about it, we're all wrong at times, and the game mechanics change.. what you thought was right isn't necessarily right now...

[The Dreaded Baron B Killer]

Fierostetz, on 17 July 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

Yes, there are a lot of new pilots that knock into each other, but the more you play and win, the less of it you see. Pugging is still straight up bumper-mechs though. Lots of new guys in there. I've long felt this game needed an "arcade mode", with no rewards OR penalties, so people could learn to drive in a guilt-free environment without affecting their stats (for better or worse). Also, a good place for drunk people to play without hobbling their team.

not really... I've seen retreating mechs just plow through their team mates. I play plenty and win enough to not be in a lower tier of players. The pug solo thing with MM now is kinda arcade mode, and group play is essentially (supposedly) non arcade mode now, with all kinds of players facing off against all kinds.

[Jon Gotham]

Fierostetz, on 17 July 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

I think he's alluding to consequences for piloting like a moron - yes, mechs SHOULD take damage from whackin' into each other - but BOTH mechs should take damage. If a Jenner jump-jets and hits an atlas in the head at 100kph, that Atlas should get knocked down, and the jenner should accrue significant damage. Assault and heavy mechs do not "dominate", but their tolerance for mistakes is much greater). Light mechs can perform on-par for the most part, you just have to work harder and be better.

Thanks for the sensible reply.
The mm queue does beg to differ, with light mechs very, VERY lowly represented. Assaults and heavies make up the majority of the queue nearly all the time. There are reasons for that.
Putting collisions in the way many here seem to want, will give those heavier mechs yet another weapon to use-one they don't need.
I agree fully something needs to be done about the lights that leg hump-but in a way that does not disadvantage them any more. Go too far and that light % might drop even lower than it already.

My "skewed" perspective comes from similar mechanics with pushaways in WoT. It made certain tanks night on unkillable to certain other tanks. 4x3 has been bullied into the game to try to combat the assault/heavy spam and give lighter mechs a chance, any move that hinder them undo that aim somewhat. Some of the guys here seem to just want lights to be easier to kill....

[stjobe]

kamiko kross, on 17 July 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Some of the guys here seem to just want lights to be easier to kill....

Historically, that has been the main impetus behind "bring collisions back!" threads...

[Jiang Wei]

In case it hasnt already been mentioned...

Russ had said in the most recent vlog that knockdowns are coming back, but they had to redesign it from scratch in such a way it couldnt be used to grief other players.

So.... its coming back, just have no idea.. "when".

[Mawai]

The way knock downs were previously implemented was broken ... the great videos earlier in this thread show that.

However, why should knock downs occur at all? Mechs weigh tons and run at speed up to 150kph or more. They turn quickly, trip over terrain without falling down, run into obstructions without falling down ... this is all due to the tonnage assigned to the gyroscope and the piloting system that uses a neuro-helmet to tap into the pilot's sense of balance. This is a science fiction GAME based on Battletech ... and mechs are designed to not easily fall down. They can even move at a significant speed with one leg completely blown off ... hopping I guess

In conclusion, I don't think knockdowns are essential, necessarily justifiable given the technology, and are a total joke when implemented badly.

[Clit Beastwood]

BaronBastardKiller, on 17 July 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

The data you provide is not accurate so ignoring makes sense to me, if that irks you, or bruises your ego, then that's really not my problem bub.

"fairly veteran"... I don't care if you are a vet... doesn't mean you're a math genius or understand Physics... or the programming of the cryengine system for that matter....or the physics engine implementation it's capable of (if properly programmed).

as for slinging mud, nobody slung mud, I simply pointed out the errors in your comments, which obviously irked you, since you don't like appearing to be wrong. The fact you wrote that small essay response kinda shows that you really need to crack open a beer and let go of your opinionated ways.

your logic and view of seeing things doesn't make them automatically right because they add up. also you mastered all the mechs? fantastic... is everyone running lights with the builds you have? Seriously... I watched today and I didn't see a single light go over 137kph... All of them packing large lasers and ACs and whatnot. Since the clans came everyone changed their builds... so your original argument is wrong sadly. don't get upset about it, we're all wrong at times, and the game mechanics change.. what you thought was right isn't necessarily right now...

- What data is wrong? The relative speed was the sum of speed A and speed B - I don't know how you think this is wrong? You can google relativistic speed if you'd like.
- I work at a game dev college using Cryengine3 daily. If PGI is ever going to implement more realistic physics, it's going to be a *long* time. They probably won't though, because the playerbase would revolt.
- 137kph is the speed of an un-speedtweaked spider with an xl255 (max engine for 5d), an un-speedtweaked raven 3l with an xl295 (max engine) or a little more than an un-speedtweaked commando 2d with the biggest engine. So, you're seeing mechs that are running max engine, without speedtweak. Server light population is really low right now, many of those running lights are new and leveling them (thus slower) or running clan lights (which are slow). Or veterans dropping in groups against other veteran groups. Clan lights being slow is/was a major complaint about them (because all a light has is speed). Go watch a MWO twitch.tv stream - if you're lucky and catch anyone running IS lights (edmeister or errodien stream in lights a lot, as do I and several others) you'll see normal light builds, post speed-tweak. I rarely see IS lights in-drop running less than the max engine, and I drop 3-4 hours a day. If you look up light builds on these very forums, they're almost always packing max engine. The "meta" most certainly has not shifted to favor slower lights.

I'm not upset about our exchange, I enjoy the debate my suspicion is that, if you're seeing lights topping out at 137, you're likely not playing with anyone that's gotten speed tweak yet. If you'd like to drop with myself and my team, feel free to friend me! You won't see any IS lights moving slower than maybe140, most are 150+ or bust.

Here's a few of my youtube videos for your reference, if you want - just mine, you can search for more if you'd like
pugging in 150kph ember
farting around in a 152kph spider
practicing in a 152kph spider
farting around in a 152kph spider

I can grab more recent ones if you want, but I rarely bother uploading spider drops to youtube anymore. I have plenty more archived on my twitch stream (linked in my sig).

Here's some screenshots - I know what I'm talking about!


you can look at more if you want http://fierostetz.imgur.com/all/
I have a bunch from other mechs, too, but I don't generally keep them online.

Jiang Wei, on 17 July 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

In case it hasnt already been mentioned...

Russ had said in the most recent vlog that knockdowns are coming back, but they had to redesign it from scratch in such a way it couldnt be used to grief other players.

So.... its coming back, just have no idea.. "when".

Nebulous timeline? From PGI?

j/k PGI I love you guys. If it weren't for MWO I'd have to go outside.

Edited by Fierostetz, 17 July 2014 - 01:23 PM.

[Cest7]

For this game to be called a "Sim" it HAS to have knockdowns and proper physics.

Right now its an Arcade Shooter... Its pretty pathetic that they just outright REMOVED knockdowns and never said they'd persue it further.

[Anyone00]

Now would be a good time to point out the current state of collisions in the game so here's a more recent video to illistrate where this game is technically in that regard:
http://youtu.be/WXZmJE0thAg

[Jiang Wei]

Mawai, on 17 July 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

The way knock downs were previously implemented was broken ... the great videos earlier in this thread show that.

However, why should knock downs occur at all? Mechs weigh tons and run at speed up to 150kph or more. They turn quickly, trip over terrain without falling down, run into obstructions without falling down ... this is all due to the tonnage assigned to the gyroscope and the piloting system that uses a neuro-helmet to tap into the pilot's sense of balance. This is a science fiction GAME based on Battletech ... and mechs are designed to not easily fall down. They can even move at a significant speed with one leg completely blown off ... hopping I guess

In conclusion, I don't think knockdowns are essential, necessarily justifiable given the technology, and are a total joke when implemented badly.

And yet.... a grain of sand will cause leg damage.....

[Vassago Rain]

It's never coming back. Good riddance.

[Clit Beastwood]

kamiko kross, on 17 July 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Thanks for the sensible reply.
The mm queue does beg to differ, with light mechs very, VERY lowly represented. Assaults and heavies make up the majority of the queue nearly all the time. There are reasons for that.
Putting collisions in the way many here seem to want, will give those heavier mechs yet another weapon to use-one they don't need.
I agree fully something needs to be done about the lights that leg hump-but in a way that does not disadvantage them any more. Go too far and that light % might drop even lower than it already.

My "skewed" perspective comes from similar mechanics with pushaways in WoT. It made certain tanks night on unkillable to certain other tanks. 4x3 has been bullied into the game to try to combat the assault/heavy spam and give lighter mechs a chance, any move that hinder them undo that aim somewhat. Some of the guys here seem to just want lights to be easier to kill....

I suspect that the low representation is due at least in part to everyone having their fancy new toys - I'm primarily a light pilot, but the sheer number of gunsplosions you can generate with a direwolf made me level them up first - the leg damage (fix pending finally!) probably isn't helping a lot of light pilots. I've always feathered my jets at landing (to get rid of that pause when lights land after jetting) so I'm not picking up much leg damage in JJ lights. It definitely takes a lot more care, which has an impact on how "fun" lights are. Less fun = not getting used

Vassago Rain, on 17 July 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

It's never coming back. Good riddance.

haha the music made it amazing

THANK YOU

[Sephlock]

Vassago Rain, on 17 July 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

It's never coming back. Good riddance.

It was the most fun thing in the game, rivaling prepatch Clan play on the test servers.