157 replies to this topic

[Grendel408]

Kjudoon, on 23 July 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

What's really funny is how worthless a HEAP round would really be. HEAP stands for High Explosive Anti Personnel. Means it's great for killing soft targets like wood framed houses, unarmored vehicles and people but suck against armored targets. So this begs the question how such a worthless round would be used versus a battlemech and why it can do so much damage as compared to missile weapons with probably superior warheads, doesn't it?

Actually... HEAP stands for: High Explosive Armor Piercing - rounds meant to penetrate armor... and turn people into jelly. These are usually around 30mm and larger caliber rounds. Maybe you were thinking small arms status rounds like: High Explosive Incendiary/Armor Piercing Ammunition

Edited by Grendel408, 23 July 2014 - 01:23 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Grendel408, on 23 July 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Actually... HEAP stands for: High Explosive Armor Piercing - rounds meant to penetrate armor... and turn people into jelly. These are usually around 30mm and larger caliber rounds. Maybe you were thinking small arms status rounds like: High Explosive Incendiary/Armor Piercing Ammunition

Strypewolf, on 23 July 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

If that acronym stood for what you say it does. There would be no use for machine guns in battle tech. Machine guns were designed for anti personnel / anti elemental and shouldn't do squat against a mech. If you're wanting to play on technicalities here.

Also only 35% barring the mech going into cover/ams/ecm that is sorely inaccurate. If you don't believe me, go into a training ground and fire at targets there. 100% of those missiles will hit. I know because I have tested it.

Well, apparently the difference between HEAP and HEAT rounds are non-existent or the definition changed over the years. I dunno.

And technically, if MWO stuck to lore, there wasn't a purpose to have flamers or MGs in the game except as anti-personnel for burning forests creating cover and gunning down infantry. They were never supposed to be functional as an anti-mech weapon. I may have to test this out on Megamek, which is a fairly accurate TT simulator and will allow the tests to be done quickly.

I run LRMs all the time. Their behavior in training grounds is far far different from in game rendering any results there moot. Also, I still don't see 100% hit ratios from LRMs if you go outside of 250m which is a bad range to be for any LRM mech unless in certain places and circumstances.

The point still remains LRMs need buffing not nerfing so they are a competative weapon class with ACs and Energy weapons.

Edited by Kjudoon, 23 July 2014 - 01:36 PM.

[ollo]

Kjudoon, on 23 July 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

And technically, if MWO stuck to lore, there wasn't a purpose to have flamers or MGs in the game except as anti-personnel for burning forests creating cover and gunning down infantry.

Well, i'd suggest you learn the lore, then? MGs are basically a non-heat SL, and sarna states "the Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers, while still being effective at damaging BattleMechs". Please notice the last part of this sentence

On Flamers, "Introduced in 2025, the standard Flamer taps into a BattleMech's reactor to produce heat in the form of a plasma release.^[3] An extremely short-ranged weapon, the Flamer is devastating against infantry, however damage done against other 'Mechs and vehicles is negligible, though it can raise the enemy unit's heat levels.", which it does, doesn't it?

[Kjudoon]

Quote

'damage done against other Mechs and vehicles is negligible, though it can raise the enemy unit's heat levels.", which it does, doesn't it?

Key quote. Neglegible damage. I watch 7-9 flamer mechs regularly snuff others when people decide to troll that way. Why? Cause a few guys in my unit LOVE flamers and I've even watched a 5 flamer locust kill... with flamers only a healthy victor.

[ZenFool]

Boohoohoo. I hate to see threads like this. You don't see threads vs. any other single weapon type. Peeps rage against meta etc, but not against ppc or ac specifically. Its odd, since I can't equip my anti ppc modules and equipment...... Peeps completely dismiss ams so they can have higher dps and then rage against lrm spam........ Get behind a building or pay the 1.5 tons to protect yourself, but pls don't come onto the forums and rage against a weapon type that has the most hard counters in the game. It takes me milliseconds to fire off my ac and ppc and a second or more to get a lock with my artemis/bap/narc or tagged target with no quarantee of damage. Stop complaining pls, its all in your head. Psychological damage is what lrms do, and I'm glad for that in game and peeved about the same thing on the forums. Rage in game pls, but don't whine so much on the forums that they break the game in a futile attempt to pls the peeps that freak out when the rain starts......

Edited by ZenFool, 23 July 2014 - 08:38 PM.

[Erdbeermarmeladentoastbrot]

Well bought the Jester cause he can run 2 times AMS. (Im running him with 2 times AMS, AMS Overload and 4-5t of AMS ammo. thats 5-6t of equippment only for the AMS technology)
I also elite skilled him already. (Also removed the JJs but thats another story ^^)

The thing is, if a LRM Clan Boat (with LRM Clan Boats i mean those mechs shooting LRM 50-70 without overheating) lockes onto me, cause im narced, tagged, being spotted by a scout or simply ran into his line of sight my ams is able to destroy only few of the missle flying towards me.

Of course i´m searching cover if i´m being spotted and missle fly towards me. But even with the Jester (XL 325 engine: thats arround 90 kph) often the first salvo hits me. It depends on the enemy LRM boat, but if its a lets say LRM 60 (nearly every Clan can do that i think) im still getting big dmg. from that first salvo hitting me.

Didn´t master it yet but when i did it i have to choose between Radar Deprivation or Seysmic Sensors, cause i dont wanna give up my Advanced Zoom or the AMS Overload (even i don´t know if AMS Overload improves the performance of the AMS noticable)



All i want is the option, that i can acitvate or deactivate my AMS (cause sometimes its a huge waste of ammo if my AMS destroys missles that wont reach me anyway)
I also would appreciate it if you could improve the performance of the AMS a bit (even I think AMS Overload was implemented as a Improvement for the AMS). Cause if im getting primed by LRMs my AMS doesnt feel anymore like a Anti Missle System ._. .

[NetherlightWolf]

On the AMS front. I agree that there should be a toggle to switch off ams or make it smarter about not trying to shoot missles being fired outside a tunnel when you're inside of it.

Though since all ams target the same missile. One ams is tsking out the missile while others are just shooting in the breeze. I would see if you get different results with just one ams. If it's the same, pgi should allow each ams to target independently to make multi ams setups more viable.

Also put in clan laser ams!

Edited by Strypewolf, 24 July 2014 - 06:54 AM.

[Kjudoon]

ZenFool, on 23 July 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

Boohoohoo. I hate to see threads like this. You don't see threads vs. any other single weapon type. Peeps rage against meta etc, but not against ppc or ac specifically. Its odd, since I can't equip my anti ppc modules and equipment...... Peeps completely dismiss ams so they can have higher dps and then rage against lrm spam........ Get behind a building or pay the 1.5 tons to protect yourself, but pls don't come onto the forums and rage against a weapon type that has the most hard counters in the game. It takes me milliseconds to fire off my ac and ppc and a second or more to get a lock with my artemis/bap/narc or tagged target with no quarantee of damage. Stop complaining pls, its all in your head. Psychological damage is what lrms do, and I'm glad for that in game and peeved about the same thing on the forums. Rage in game pls, but don't whine so much on the forums that they break the game in a futile attempt to pls the peeps that freak out when the rain starts......

You'll be stunned to know that I have now come across a thread demanding the PPC be slowed down because it is 'too fast'. Dumb, but there it is. And I find it funny that lightning, artificial or not, is being demanded to go slower than AC rounds.

[Wolfways]

VonRarthasKon, on 22 July 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

As a new player to MWO but an old Tabletop player I have to say that LRMS seem a bit strong not neccesarily due to damage being too high. Instead what I see is the reliable combined firepower multiple mechs put out from long distances.

iirc, LRMS on TT would hit at a random rate in 5 pt increments to different locations. The average rate was basically around 60-70% of the potential damage of the salvo. This meant that a LRM 20 could generally be counted on to hit for 12-16 damage spread out across locations in 5pt increments.
I understood this was a way to simulate the inaccuracy of firing salvos across great distances.

Again I am new to the online mechanics but from what I have read PGI has done a great job of translating that damage formula into the combat system.

The problem occurs when it seems that C3 computers are essentially standard on all mechs. For those that dont know what I mean, the C3 computer allowed multiple mechs in a lance or mutiple lances to feed off other mechs target information. Currently because of this use of the targeting system 2-3 LRM equiped mechs can easily bring 100+ pts of damage to bear at extreme ranges with accuracy onto a single mech in only 1 salvo. Even without the firing mechs having solid LoS.

I have seen Dire Wolves and Atlas break cover for just a moment and be obliterated in a few seconds by this type of combined fire. I like the team play reward this encourages but I have noticed the tactics shift recently to having ECM nearby or just hang it up.
Comparing these tactics to fantasy RPGs and you can see that having an ECM equiped mech is like having a healer in your group. They are almost mandatory in order to survive and thus have more value than most short ranged damage dealing classes.

Now obviously some maps are much more difficult to take advantage of LRM team play. I have been running the Jagers so I love me some city maps but other more open field maps make me cringe at the inevitable warning "INCOMING MISSLE". Light and mediums can flank the LRM boats as well so hopefully we'll see more pilots go that route. It's a ballsy line considering when you are spotted you are in a "duck vs the Robertsons" scenario.

I look forward to the meta shifting to compensate for the LRM spam without tweaks on the part of the developer but I'm sure they are keeing a close eye on things.

I may have rambled but its my 2 cents as a newb who likes to brawl in an LRM world.

The biggest difference between TT and MWO LRM's is that in TT you couldn't just avoid them by moving behind cover after they were fired at you. 160ms and a warning for the target really screws up the "long range" part of LRM's

[Wolfways]

Strypewolf, on 23 July 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

Okay now second, they haven't been nerfed and you should be glad they don't work as per TT rules where you would be lucky if 50% of them hit. The reason they don't exist at the higher elos is because the skilled players know how to gut silly lrm boats. So yes you could say a good number of lrm boat pilots are no skill noobs driving their own coffin waiting to happen.

LRM's have probably been buffed then nerfed more than any other weapon in the game.
The reason they don't exist in higher ELO's is more likely that players know how to completely avoid getting hit by LRM's without using any countermeasures. I do it all the time and i'm not high ELO.

I wish LRM's were as good as in TT. Instant projectile speed (like all weapons) No chance of the target running for cover after fired upon... .

[Wolfways]

Strypewolf, on 23 July 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Machine guns were designed for anti personnel / anti elemental and shouldn't do squat against a mech.

Where do people keep getting this from?
MG's in BT were as useful against mechs as AC2's. They did the same damage/turn, but they were more effective against infantry.

[Dark DeLaurel]

Wolfways, on 25 July 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:

Where do people keep getting this from?
MG's in BT were as useful against mechs as AC2's. They did the same damage/turn, but they were more effective against infantry.

They get it from the first line here
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_Gun

Quote

The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers,

Edited by Dark DeLaurel, 25 July 2014 - 01:58 AM.

[Wolfways]

Dark DeLaurel, on 25 July 2014 - 01:57 AM, said:

They get it from the first line here
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Machine_Gun

The full line is "The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers, while still being effective at damaging BattleMechs."

[NetherlightWolf]

Be that as it may. Damaging mechs is not the primary purpose of it. It certainly wasn't meant to be a crit seeker weapon like it is in mwo.

[Widowmaker1981]

Erdbeermarmeladentoastbrot, on 24 July 2014 - 05:12 AM, said:

Well bought the Jester cause he can run 2 times AMS. (Im running him with 2 times AMS, AMS Overload and 4-5t of AMS ammo. thats 5-6t of equippment only for the AMS technology)
I also elite skilled him already. (Also removed the JJs but thats another story ^^)

The thing is, if a LRM Clan Boat (with LRM Clan Boats i mean those mechs shooting LRM 50-70 without overheating) lockes onto me, cause im narced, tagged, being spotted by a scout or simply ran into his line of sight my ams is able to destroy only few of the missle flying towards me.

Of course i´m searching cover if i´m being spotted and missle fly towards me. But even with the Jester (XL 325 engine: thats arround 90 kph) often the first salvo hits me. It depends on the enemy LRM boat, but if its a lets say LRM 60 (nearly every Clan can do that i think) im still getting big dmg. from that first salvo hitting me.

Didn´t master it yet but when i did it i have to choose between Radar Deprivation or Seysmic Sensors, cause i dont wanna give up my Advanced Zoom or the AMS Overload (even i don´t know if AMS Overload improves the performance of the AMS noticable)



All i want is the option, that i can acitvate or deactivate my AMS (cause sometimes its a huge waste of ammo if my AMS destroys missles that wont reach me anyway)
I also would appreciate it if you could improve the performance of the AMS a bit (even I think AMS Overload was implemented as a Improvement for the AMS). Cause if im getting primed by LRMs my AMS doesnt feel anymore like a Anti Missle System ._. .

your 6 tons of AMS SHOULDNT negate 20 tons+ of enemy missiles. Getting hit by 1 salvo is fine. do you think that LRM mechs should just not be able to do anything?

in fairness you should be able to toggle AMS on or off.

[Kjudoon]

Widowmaker1981, on 25 July 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

your 6 tons of AMS SHOULDNT negate 20 tons+ of enemy missiles. Getting hit by 1 salvo is fine. do you think that LRM mechs should just not be able to do anything?

in fairness you should be able to toggle AMS on or off.

And AMS should be blocked by scenery and damage other mechs it shoots through to hit missiles.

[NetherlightWolf]

Also 6 tons of ams ammo is 6000 rounds. Even if we figure a 33% hit rate. That's 2000 missiles shot down. Ams mechanics do need work.

Edited by Strypewolf, 25 July 2014 - 09:07 AM.

[Grendel408]

Strypewolf, on 25 July 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

Be that as it may. Damaging mechs is not the primary purpose of it. It certainly wasn't meant to be a crit seeker weapon like it is in mwo.

I remember MGuns being a deadly combo paired with small lasers in MW2 Now those were the days back on Kali's Grand Council server!