199 replies to this topic

[meteorol]

OneEyed Jack, on 18 July 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

Just what we need. More moronic, senseless, and useless nerfs so that the whiney little ******* can move on to look for something else to whine about for awhile, and so that the few whiney little twitch-monkey ******* who actually still think instant pin-point convergence in a game with hit locations is a good idea don't get upset.

FFS, PGI, stop with the bullshit, senseless, illogical, magical-hand-wavey nerfs, fix the real god-damned problem, and let the "I want my shots to go where I aim" crybabies deal with it!

Non-instant convergence, CoF (I damned well know the code can handle that), successful hits applied to random locations (you already have the code for streaks). There are numerous ways it could be accomplished, but these ridiculous nerfs you keep using to avoid the real issue are getting out of hand. Ghost Heat, Gauss charging that for some reason can't be done during the cooldown and capacitors that dump their charge for no logical reason, and now power limits on a fusion reactor that could power a small city? Fix the real problem, and quit pussyfooting around. The vast majority of your players will thank you, and you just might be able to build a balanced game.

Why the hell is it that PGI is willing to piss off every other player in the game with dumb idea after dumb idea to dance around fixing a single, solitary issue, but is so scared to anger the few holdout twerps still clinging to pinpoint convergence?

Non instant convergence will never be in the game again. PGI will never add a CoF. As hard as it sounds, but deal with it. There is no reason to ask for it anymore. It won't happen. Period. That train is long gone, and PGI missed it. We got to face reality right now. Non instant convergence is out of discussion. Those band-aid fixes are the only fixes we will ever get.

There is really no use in screaming "stop band-aid fixes, fix the underlaying issue, fix instant perfect convergence" anymore. PGI probably neither has the man power nor the abilities to do it. They don't want to do it. They won't do it. Perfect convergence is here to stay and thinking otherwise is delusional.
While that might sound harsh it's something we need to accept if we want to discuss balance, because it will stay forever as core element of all balance issues.

[Reno Blade]

I would like to have at least this mechanic ingame.
The energy drain should be minimum of 1 second before you can shoot any large energy/gauss again.

But I would not stop there.
Instead, I'd go as far as change the weapons further like this to reduce the overall "bigger is better".
All these changes together would spread out damage (over time, or due to splash) further, but not reduce the damage itself.

- Clan and IS PPCs with the arcing splash damage:
CERPPC = 9 +3 +3 damage, 15 heat, 5sec cooldown
IS PPC = 6 +2 +2 damage, 10 heat, 5sec cooldown
IS ERPPC = 8 +1 +1 damage, 15 heat, 5sec cooldown

- Clan and IS ACs all burstfire:
Clan UACs stay as they are
IS ACs burst with 1 less bullet per volley (2 for AC5, 3 for AC10 and 4 for AC20).

- Small weapons (Laser, LRM and Pulse lasers) getting shorter cooldowns:
reduce SPulse cooldown a bit (2.0 from 2.25s)
reduce ML and MPulse cooldown a bit (Lower MPulse more) (2.75 and 2.50 from 3.0s)
increase LL and ERLL cooldown a bit (3.50 from 3.25s)
With beam duration it would be: (4.5sec for IS and 5sec for Clans)
reduce LPulse cooldown a bit (3.0 from 3.25s)
increase PPCs cooldowns more. (5.0 from 4.0s)

reduce LRM 5 cooldown a bit (3.0 from 3.25s)
keep LRM 10 cooldown (3.75s)
increase LRM 15 cooldown a bit (4.5 from 4.25s)
increase LRM 20 cooldown a bit more. (5.25 from 4.75s)

It would make it more attractive to use medium/small weapons for higher rate of fire and (higher dps) and the big/slow weapons for big punch, but lower rate of fire = better distinguish between "roles".

It could help to give medium mechs an edge using medium sized weapons and launchers and increase the benefits of pulse lasers to warant the high tonnage/heat/range cost over normal or ER lasers.

The shorter cooldown on Pulse laser would not be a balance problem, as the heat would limit the rate of fire after a few volley anyway.
But it would allow the pulse lasers to be used more for quick brawls and for hit and run.

[OneEyed Jack]

meteorol, on 18 July 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

There is really no use in screaming "stop band-aid fixes, fix the underlaying issue, fix instant perfect convergence" anymore. PGI probably neither has the man power nor the abilities to do it. They don't want to do it. They won't do it. Perfect convergence is here to stay and thinking otherwise is delusional.
While that might sound harsh it's something we need to accept if we want to discuss balance, because it will stay forever as core element of all balance issues.

Then there's no point discussing balance at all, because there are no fixes to balance that include instant pinpoint convergence and aren't just convoluted mechanics that just confuse new players or warp the game in nauseatingly absurd ways. So if you don't like me pointing out the single direction they can possibly go to actually accomplish something useful in this regard, then you might as well keep your trap shut, because nothing you say is helping, either.

That's not a "STFU", it's a "practice what you preach."

[Coralld]

I agree with the OP, PGI needs to turn this thing on to cut down on the PP FLD meta cheese and would solve part of the meta problem.
Now, there are those pointing out "Oh, if they do this, then people will just go back to PPC+AC builds." And they would be right. However, Russ also tweeted a while back stating that they are also looking into making IS ACs also burst fire as well.
There was a big thread here on the forums that talked about this, and most people agreed that this is the right way to go as long as the IS ACs fired fewer shells per burst as well as having their projectile velocity increased slightly, where as the Clan ACs and UACs get a increase to base cycle time and number of shells fired per burst. This would mean Clan ACs and UACs would have to wait an extra second or two longer than they do now before they can get another shot off, not only that, but they would also have to get more shells to land on target to do their full damage.

So if PGI turns on this "PPC+Gauss link nerf," and make IS ACs burst fire, then the meta for the most part would be done away with and everyone will be singing "Ding dong the meta is dead..."

This also would allow PGI to add in mechs such as the Annihilator, Mauler, and the King Crab, without people raising holy hell because they can mount 2x Gauss + PPC combo and would for the most part destroy anything your in as soon as they looked in your general direction if the meta stays where it is now.
I mean, really, people are already infuriated with the 2x Gauss + 2x ERPPC Dire whale.

Edited by Coralld, 18 July 2014 - 07:11 AM.

[Livewyr]

So many convoluted ideas...

Why not stick with something simple to balance the weapons that have long range, PP FLD, and the same RoF as everything else?

[Zyllos]

The issue wholly here is the fundamental differences between FLD weapons and DPS weapons.

• DPS weapons, you need to maintain your facing to provide full DPS of a weapon
  
• FLD weapons, you do NOT need to maintain your facing to provide full DPS of a weapon

There are two ways to go about fixing FLD weapons to retain their high damage up front without breaking DPS weapons.

• Make FLD weapons act like DPS weapons
  
• Introduce some mechanic that reduces the ability to place FLD damage

Personally, I think some type of CoF mechanic is the way to go for FLD weapons because it feels more Battletech to me. But you could also make the DPS of FLD weapons be extremely low and limit the amount of them you can fire at a time.

But I still feel this will not accomplish in fixing the issue because you can still easily place damage on specific locations for large targets.

[Mechteric]

I don't understand why they can't just adjust the heat system to work properly (and without stupid things like ghost heat). Lowering the heat capacity and increasing heat dissipation seems a reasonable way to do this.

The double gauss link thing is fine because even that is somewhat canon and makes sense because gauss build no heat. But expanding linking to things that already are supposed to be limited by heat means the heat system needs fixing, not that linking is some kind of answer to fix other things.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 18 July 2014 - 06:54 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Coralld, on 18 July 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

Now, there are those pointing out "Oh, if they do this, then people will just go back to PPC+AC builds." And they would be right. However, Russ also tweeted a while back stating that they are also looking into making IS ACs also burst fire as well.

Judging from the conversation they had on the recent podcast I doubt IS will be getting burst fire. However, with the recent changes to jump jets it sounds as though PPC + AC has too difficult a time squeezing in the extra jump jets.

[Sandslice]

I have one point of disagreement with this: certain 'Mechs *normally* carry weapons above the proposed "not even ghost heat; you just can't do it" threshold.

AWS-8Q: 3 PPCs
AWS-9M: 3 ERPPCs
Warhawk Prime: 4 cERPPCs

The Awesomes don't need more nerfs. At the same time, Awesomes can't ever use ballistic hardpoints, so perhaps there might be room for a Quirk that raises their PPC usage threshold up to 3? (And if I might be so bold as to push the matter, their PPC Ghost Heat threshold as well?)

As for the Warhawk, if we wanted something similar for it, this could be installed as a Prime Omnipod bonus for 8, so that the Warhawk can't swap in any ballistic pods and run gauss/PPC.

However, if I had to pick my fight in this, it'd be for the Awesomes. They need a bone thrown to them.

If that at least is addressed, I support this change.

[meteorol]

OneEyed Jack, on 18 July 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

Then there's no point discussing balance at all, because there are no fixes to balance that include instant pinpoint convergence and aren't just convoluted mechanics that just confuse new players or warp the game in nauseatingly absurd ways. So if you don't like me pointing out the single direction they can possibly go to actually accomplish something useful in this regard, then you might as well keep your trap shut, because nothing you say is helping, either.

That's not a "STFU", it's a "practice what you preach."

That "single direction" has been pointed out thousands of times, literally thousands of times over the last 1.5 years. PGI didn't listen for 1.5 years, they won't listen now. Non instant convergence is simply nothing they will ever go back to. It won't happen.
They will keep on confusing noobs, they will put in stuff that neither makes much sense nor is canon, but we can't change that. Don't get me wrong, i'd love them to do something about instant convergence, but they simply won't. Pointing out the obvious fix doesn't help anymore, because PGI has proven that they don't want to go that way.

We can discuss bad or worse band-aid fixes, hoping they chose the bad and not the worse, but suggesting stuff that won't happen anyway won't make the worse band-aid fixes just bad ones. Suggesting improvements to sh*tty fixes to raise them to just bad fixes is pretty much everything we can do right now.

I don't like this situation either, but non instant convergence is off the table.

[OneEyed Jack]

CapperDeluxe, on 18 July 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

The double gauss link thing is fine because even that is somewhat canon

One line, in a single book out of how many? And it completely ignores the many, many, many times that they were not limited. A number of the protagonists in post-Tukayyid books drove mechs with 2-3 Gauss. Most of them repeatedly fired them on a linked TIC, and only once was there a mention of a power issue. Unless it was in MW:DA books. I've never managed to trudge through more than a couple of those. Blech!

(In not a single one was there a charge-up time after they pulled the trigger..... )

[Coralld]

Sandslice, on 18 July 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

I have one point of disagreement with this: certain 'Mechs *normally* carry weapons above the proposed "not even ghost heat; you just can't do it" threshold.

AWS-8Q: 3 PPCs
AWS-9M: 3 ERPPCs
Warhawk Prime: 4 cERPPCs

The Awesomes don't need more nerfs. At the same time, Awesomes can't ever use ballistic hardpoints, so perhaps there might be room for a Quirk that raises their PPC usage threshold up to 3? (And if I might be so bold as to push the matter, their PPC Ghost Heat threshold as well?)

As for the Warhawk, if we wanted something similar for it, this could be installed as a Prime Omnipod bonus for 8, so that the Warhawk can't swap in any ballistic pods and run gauss/PPC.

However, if I had to pick my fight in this, it'd be for the Awesomes. They need a bone thrown to them.

If that at least is addressed, I support this change.

I have been a strong advocate for this for a long time now.

[Rhent]

Oh wait, now I get it. The OP screwed up the title, its supposed to be the BUFF LIGHT MECHS please thread. You know ensure that those mechs that can fire 6 or less ML or SL have no penalty its just the guys using Gauss and PPC and eventually they will throw in AC's you know just because.

[Khobai]

Quote

Truth is ghost heat has worked.

Limiting 4 PPC or 2 AC20 builds is fine. But why does it need to limit large lasers? or large pulse lasers? or srms/lrms? Ghost heat still does more harm than good because it puts arbitrary limits on weapons that shouldnt have limits.

As for PPC/Gauss the easiest solution is just to have Gauss count as a PPC for purposes of ghost heat. So if you fire a Gauss within .5 seconds of firing two PPCs, you incur ghost heat as if you fired three PPCs. Or in the case of clan mechs, as if you fired three ERPPCs. The result would be you could still play a x2 Gauss, x2 CERPPC Dire Wolf, but the ERPPCs would have to be fired a half second apart from the Gauss. However if Gauss and PPC are linked in that way, they should remove Gauss chargeup and simply have a hard limit of 2 gauss per mech.

Edited by Khobai, 18 July 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[Tezcatli]

I do remember in the second Blood of Kerensky book. One of the characters is using a Gauss and it said something about having to delay using his energy weapons because of the energy strain the Gauss caused.

[OneEyed Jack]

meteorol, on 18 July 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

I don't like this situation either, but non instant convergence is off the table.

You do realize that was only one of the things I mentioned, and I only mentioned a couple things off the top of my head, right? Right?

Non-instant convergence can't be done? They've fixed other things they previously claimed couldn't be fixed.

CoF off the table? They've already added it. It's currently only while JJs are firing, but it proves there's a cleft (seriously, ***** is filtered?) in the armor and they could do it eventually.

Random hit locations (ala TT rules)? I know of no instance where they addressed the idea, but they'v already got a start on the code, thanks to streaks.

Removing most PP FLD (more burst-fire ACs and arcing PPCs) altogether? Kind of a roundabout solution, and requires other nerfs to Clans to keep some balance there. Not my favorite, but it kinda works.

I'm not going to take the time to go digging, but there have been dozens of ideas that could address the actual problem, to one degree or another, and not just slap on more bandaids (aaaand have to misspell that or the filters get it) to fix symptoms. Bowing your head and agreeing to accept the bandaids if it's all they're offering has accomplished nothing. The bandaids don't work. If you want to play ostrich, go for it. I'm not going to. They probably won't listen, since I don't whine long or loud enough, but I'll continue to speak my mind. The next time PGI actually listens to a good idea posted on these boards will, I believe, be the first.

[Edit for filtering]

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 18 July 2014 - 07:34 AM.

[Livewyr]

Tezcatli, on 18 July 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

I do remember in the second Blood of Kerensky book. One of the characters is using a Gauss and it said something about having to delay using his energy weapons because of the energy strain the Gauss caused.

Using the Gauss Rifle meant the computer had to "cycle power." In the battle (Phelan's ToP) Vlad had twin Gauss, so firing them both at the same time slowed down the projectiles. It did not effect Phelan's single Gauss in concert with his other weapons. (He destroyed the Warhawk by alpha striking it at close range, including the Gauss.)

[Rhent]

Tezcatli, on 18 July 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

I do remember in the second Blood of Kerensky book. One of the characters is using a Gauss and it said something about having to delay using his energy weapons because of the energy strain the Gauss caused.

Trying to use the literary books to justify game mechanics in here might as well be like telling your girlfriend that you read in penthouse letters that she would like surprise **** sex, your analogy is THAT BAD.

[Livewyr]

Rhent, on 18 July 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

Trying to use the literary books to justify game mechanics in here might as well be like telling your girlfriend that you read in penthouse letters that she would like surprise **** sex, your analogy is THAT BAD.

And your post, regarding his, on the matter is better?

[OneEyed Jack]

Livewyr, on 18 July 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

And your post, regarding his, on the matter is better?

It's at least amusing.