301 replies to this topic

[CygnusX7]

Oh lord our savior pleaseth explain why we cry nerf thy gigantic slow mech because of a bad choice made during one particular match?
I had time to jump in a couple matches the other day. Was completely annihilated. Did I blame clan mechs? No. I was a dumbass and put myself in a bad position. 8LL direwolf? GTFO... You made a mistake. Direwolf anything, you made a mistake.

[Ngamok]

Grey Black, on 22 July 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

Terrible way to put that; by this logic, either the Dire Wolf or the Nova would be more OP. Once again, it is the direct-fire hardpoints combined with speed and maneuverability, along with baller hitboxes, that make it OP.

Yea, I should have included the speed and maneuverability but it is what it is. I would have been happy with these two if there wasn't Jump Jets as well. Speed doesn't bother me because when you are engaged it is easy to keep up with any mech, even lights, when you run backwards and turn. Or if you have Jump Jets and use them to turn. WHICH would have been nice to only have the Summoner with this ability in the Heavy chassis.

[Grey Black]

Mystere, on 22 July 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

I am of a different, if twisted, view. If the IS can have their poptarts, then the Clans can have theirs too ( ). The TW-S is definitely a force to be reckoned with. But it nowhere even close to invincible. So I am fine with having it in the game.

And with regard to the Summoner, I am a bit disappointed with it, especially in its very basic state. It just seems too sluggish. Getting it to elite helped. But, it probably just doesn't fit with my style I guess. I'll keep trying with it though.

I would be of agreement were it not for the fact that it completely outmodes the Summoner. I do agree that the IS should have their poptarts, like the Nova or Summoner, but why give that power to a mech that's traditionally a ground bound monstrosity? There is, literally, no reason to run a Summoner if the Timber Wolf is allowed, a fact not helped by the modular jump jets in the Timby S, allowing it to actually be a BETTER poptart than the mechs that are SUPPOSED to be. All I'm advocating is for a trade-off to make other mechs more attractive rather than "Strictly the best mech then all the others".

[Ngamok]

Anyways, I expect to see lots of Kit Foxes running around in 2 weeks and Novas in 4 weeks.

[Siegegun]

Perq, your reply is EXACTLY what I was taking about. No offense but you do not even know what it takes to level the mechs. You do not need every variant. You need three. PGI gives you FOUR mech bays for free. They have already also given out 3 here over the course of the last 6 ish months. Which means you would have 7 if you had been around for that. For free. This is not a charity. It is a business. Four mech bays while perhaps not wonderful IS enough to play this game. They also basically give you over 11 million cbills with the cadet stuff, much less some of the other achievements.

This game is not just another CoD. While its not the simulator it started as and now kind a FPS/simulator hybrid, it will not be like jumping from one FPS to another. Also if you read the statistical analysis thread... generally it is new people, WHO ARE ONLY 60% effective for their team statistically on average, who seem to be tanking the IS mechs.

I on average do over 250 damge in an lrm LOCUST, only moving at 90kph, usually getting 1 kill as well. Sometimes I do 300-350. That mech is according to most people the WORST mech in the game. You can do this as well Perq. *edit- I forgot to add I do not even have double heatsinks on that locust.

You really need to learn and play more.


p.s.- Also note I love targeting Direwhales with my lrm boat locust, they waddle away so slow, even a locust lrm boat can take them out, and since even though super slow by light standards, my lrm locust is still the wind compared to a dire whale, quite easy to stay out of its narrow cone of fire. No one ever expects the lrm locust.

Edited by Siegegun, 22 July 2014 - 08:02 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Ngamok, on 22 July 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

Anyways, I expect to see lots of Kit Foxes running around in 2 weeks and Novas in 4 weeks.

Yea, that sounds about right. I may pass on the Kit Fox (low on funds anyway), but might try for a Nova. I have a long time to save up for a Timber Wolf :/

[KuroNyra]

Ngamok, on 22 July 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

Anyways, I expect to see lots of Kit Foxes running around in 2 weeks and Novas in 4 weeks.

I am already bracing myself for the earthquake generated by the huge ammount of Timber Wolf and Dire Wolf that will appear.

[MeiSooHaityu]

KuroNyra, on 22 July 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

I am already bracing myself for the earthquake generated by the huge ammount of Timber Wolf and Dire Wolf that will appear.

Maybe the Direwolf. The Timberwolf will have been nerfed hard by then. The Timberwolf will move like a bloated assault with rampant ghost heat LOL. The Direwolf will be good though, the CT will be small and it will move a ton quicker.

Seems to be the complaining on the forums. Timberwolf too fast and manuverable, Direwolf too slow too big of a CT.

Nah who am I kidding, the week before C-Bill release both mechs will see nerfs to performance.

[Mawai]

In my opinion ... no.

I have 4 clan mechs. What mechs have I mostly been playing?

Jenner (my favorite ... 3 mastered chassis)
Firestarter (training them up)
Kitfox (some nice builds with ECM but slow for a light)
Shadowhawk (still need to finish getting xp for these)
Jaggermech (I have 3 mastered chassis ... probably my facvorite heavy - this or the Catapult)

and one or two matches each in Dire Wolf, Summoner and Nova to try them out (Nova runs really hot).

The pattern? I am playing in my IS mechs more than my clan mechs. I have played both and don't find the clan to be pay to win at all ... they have some drawbacks ... particularly with heat and some advantages ... mostly in firepower. Standing toe to toe with a clan mech is generally not a good idea ... you need to keep moving ... all their weapons are damage over time ... it is harder for them to keep it on one component if you move.

Anyway, there are some very nasty clan mech builds ... the Dire Wolf packs some amazing firepower but it is extremely slow, has limited torso twist and turns very slowly ... lone Dire Wolves are one of the easiest mechs to kill in the game. Played right they are great ... played poorly and they are terrible.

So far, PGI seems to have got the balance about right ... there are certainly some that probably need a tweak or two ... timberwolf comes to mind ... but it isn't immediately obvious that clan mechs so far surpass IS mechs as to be unbalanced.

Finally, in the long run they will not be pay 2 win since you will be able to buy them eventually for cbills. If anything they are pay for early access but pay 2 win implies that you are paying money for something clearly better ... and except in certain specific clan mech builds and playstyles this doesn't seem to me to be the case. (However, I play in solo PUG matches primarily at whatever my ELO level is ... so someone else's experience might be somewhat different).

[Mystere]

Grey Black, on 22 July 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

I would be of agreement were it not for the fact that it completely outmodes the Summoner. I do agree that the IS should have their poptarts, like the Nova or Summoner, but why give that power to a mech that's traditionally a ground bound monstrosity? There is, literally, no reason to run a Summoner if the Timber Wolf is allowed, a fact not helped by the modular jump jets in the Timby S, allowing it to actually be a BETTER poptart than the mechs that are SUPPOSED to be. All I'm advocating is for a trade-off to make other mechs more attractive rather than "Strictly the best mech then all the others".

Solely gimping the TW-S is not a trade off. There is nothing being offered in return other than making "other mechs more attractive" as a side-effect -- assuming it even happens.

So, if people are for gimping the TW in one area (or eliminating the TW-S entirely), then it should be strengthened in another (or if removed, replace it with something just as good). That is what "give and take" is all about. If you want something removed, then you better have an equally better benefit to give in exchange.

Franky, I am really sick and tired of all these calls for nerfs. They're all one sided. It is a very large part of the player base induced problems this game has today.

Edited by Mystere, 22 July 2014 - 09:56 AM.

[KuroNyra]

Mystere, on 22 July 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Solely gimping the TW-S is not a trade off. There is nothing being offered in return other than making "other mechs more attractive" as a side-effect -- assuming it even happens.

So, if people are for gimping the TW in one area (or eliminating the TW-S entirely), then it should be strengthened in another (or if removed, replace it with something just as good). That is what "give and take" is all about. If you want something removed, then you better have an equally better benefit to give in exchange.

Franky, I am really sick and tired of all these calls for nerfs. They're all one sided. It is a very large part of the player base induced problems this game has today.

I agree.


The Clans mech are fine. But if there is one I think was a mistake. It's the Timber Wolf "JumpyWolf" S

[Grey Black]

Mystere, on 22 July 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Solely gimping the TW-S is not a trade off. There is nothing being offered in return other than making "other mechs more attractive" as a side-effect -- assuming it even happens.

So, if people are for gimping the TW in one area (or eliminating the TW-S entirely), then it should be strengthened in another (or if removed, replace it with something just as good). That is what "give and take" is all about. If you want something removed, then you better have an equally better benefit to give in exchange.

Franky, I am really sick and tired of all these calls for nerfs. They're all one sided. It is a very large part of the player base induced problems this game has today.

I'll agree, actually. The Timber Wolf S is the only variant which needs to be neutered or completely removed, so perhaps, if that variant is removed, increase the torso twist or arm movement on the Timber Wolf. Point being that the S was a mistake and needs to be rectified.

[Roland]

Mystere, on 22 July 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

So, if people are for gimping the TW in one area (or eliminating the TW-S entirely), then it should be strengthened in another (or if removed, replace it with something just as good).

Unless it's already stronger than everything else, in which case it wouldn't require anything to be strengthened, since the goal would be to weaken it and make it more in line with other mechs.

[Grey Black]

Roland, on 22 July 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

Unless it's already stronger than everything else, in which case it wouldn't require anything to be strengthened, since the goal would be to weaken it and make it more in line with other mechs.

Well, it depends. I don't think that the base Timber Wolf is radically better than other mechs, though the inclusion of the S variant is what throws all calculations off. I DO believe that removing that variant would be enough to justify some minor buffs to the Timber Wolf, as you would be losing a HUGE amount of versatility. That said, the inclusion of the S is too problematic and needs to be rectified.

[MischiefSC]

Pay for Content/Perks:

Mechs in packages, 30% cbill/xp bonuses, packages with modules, paint, cammo, unique designs. A-typical hardpoint layouts. Premium time fits in here too; paints, camo without packages associated with it. Buying stuff with cash instead of cbills. Mech packages that let you bundle in things you likely would have waited to get for cbills but since it's so cheap to just get with the package you spend more than you would have only going a la carte.

This is a good F2P model example. The oft-mentioned Star Citizen and the idea of 'buy in-game money with cash' isn't bad. Hawken and WoT as they are now do this a lot (though not so much as they used to be). It generates revenue and provides a lot of direct value for your purchase.

This is getting players to pay for content because that content is fun or convenient. It's not so much an advantage as it is convenience; nothing someone else can't get in game in around the same time, just more of it, or with more cosmetics. It's all positive reinforcement.


Pay to Avoid Disadvantages:

Pay for exclusive access - again, the Clan Packs were not 'early access'. The content was out, released and in full form, not 'beta' or otherwise 'early'. You had to pay cash to avoid being forced to wait an extra 2-6 months. Hero mechs fit in here as well - can only get with cash.

Paying to get content that can otherwise only be had with an absurd grind - several weeks to several months of work for 1 item as an example. Also in here is the need to buy 3 chassis of the same mech to unlock stuff - it's an arbitrary limitation designed to force people to grind more. With IS mechs they are even intentionally made inferior/sub-optimal to make it even less appealing.

This is all bad stuff for F2P (or any other model for that matter). This is saying 'I'm going to give you a bad experience in the game (be that playing against content you can not get yourself or playing at a disadvantage) if you don't give me money'.

This is getting people to pay money to avoid a bad experience. Blocked from certain content permanently or for extended periods, paying to avoid a painful (often intentionally unenjoyable) grind, paying to get past intentionally created obstructions.

______________________


These things are not mutually exclusive or inclusive. They both generate revenue. The first however is good and fun for both game and players, the second is bad.

Why not just stick with the first? Can't you monetize effectively by sticking in that first catagory? Other businesses have, and done so successfully. What failing does MW:O have inherently that prevents it from doing so?

[Perq]

Siegegun, on 22 July 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Perq, your reply is EXACTLY what I was taking about. No offense but you do not even know what it takes to level the mechs.

No ****? How the hell I'm supposed to know with vague explanation give in-game? Witty.

Siegegun, on 22 July 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

PGI gives you FOUR mech bays for free. They have already also given out 3 here over the course of the last 6 ish months. Which means you would have 7 if you had been around for that. For free. This is not a charity. It is a business.

Milk your player base and expect new player to come in. Smart.

Siegegun, on 22 July 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Four mech bays while perhaps not wonderful IS enough to play this game. They also basically give you over 11 million cbills with the cadet stuff, much less some of the other achievements.

And close to no information what you need to get. Can't even see what I'm buying inside the shop.

Siegegun, on 22 July 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

This game is not just another CoD. While its not the simulator it started as and now kind a FPS/simulator hybrid, it will not be like jumping from one FPS to another. Also if you read the statistical analysis thread... generally it is new people, WHO ARE ONLY 60% effective for their team statistically on average, who seem to be tanking the IS mechs.

I on average do over 250 damge in an lrm LOCUST, only moving at 90kph, usually getting 1 kill as well. Sometimes I do 300-350. That mech is according to most people the WORST mech in the game. You can do this as well Perq. *edit- I forgot to add I do not even have double heatsinks on that locust.

No **** Sherlock? Another witty comment, mmmmmm. You feel good with yourself, right? If you read for a second, you'd notice that I said that GAME IS GOOD, AND I LIKE IT. I don't like its f2p model. Brag all day long.

Quote

You really need to learn and play more.

You need to play less buddy. Burns your brain.

Siegegun, on 22 July 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

p.s.- Also note I love targeting Direwhales with my lrm boat locust, they waddle away so slow, even a locust lrm boat can take them out, and since even though super slow by light standards, my lrm locust is still the wind compared to a dire whale, quite easy to stay out of its narrow cone of fire. No one ever expects the lrm locust.

??? I don't care?

Quote

[color=#959595]This is all bad stuff for F2P (or any other model for that matter). This is saying 'I'm going to give you a bad experience in the game (be that playing against content you can not get yourself or playing at a disadvantage) if you don't give me money'.[/color]

[color=#959595]This is getting people to pay money to avoid a bad experience. Blocked from certain content permanently or for extended periods, paying to avoid a painful (often intentionally unenjoyable) grind, paying to get past intentionally created obstructions.[/color]

^ This. If sheeps weren't buying all this crap, just to feel better with themselves and roll others with no pay2win stuff, we'd see some smarter stuff going on. But money is flowing, so economy branch is happy. So what do we do? More Clan mechs! Sigh.
Ps Yes, I'm mad. Only game on the market that have well made mechs has to be screwed with p2w stupidity...

Edited by Perq, 26 July 2014 - 08:53 AM.

[Khushrenada]

well in my opinion it is straight P2w, UNTIL they are available in the ingame shop for c-bills.

the clan mechs right now is a straight "pay money to get power" system, which is clearly P2w.

the clan mechs are all way faster than their IS counterparts (in weight).

the clan balistic weapons are roughly the same, except for the UAC versions. you can`t get anything else than UAC5 for c-bills, while with a clan mech you get the ultimate close range weapon in game, the UAC20. -> pay for power.

the missile systems are again roughly the same, except for the streak variants, which go for the clans up to streak6 at the same weight as standard srm6 for IS, so again you get more powerful weapons only if you pay money -> pay for power

now at the energy weapons, things go really crazy. here we have straight power ups through the whole lot, ERlasers have a lot more range, energy weapons do flat out more damage (IS ERppc 10 while clan ERppc does 15). so here we have a tremendous power spike for the people that throw money at pgi -> pay for power

so until they show up in the c-bill market, its simply P2w.

besides running IS mechs alongside CLAN mechs in the matches feels like ****** the whole battletech canon... good job at that pgi

[Jacobei]

Yes it is P2W right now where money replaces the need to be a skilled pilot vs another skilled pilots. Clan mechs close the gap and allow baddies the ability to feel OP.. There is no debate just a few loud people of forums claim otherwise. I expect they are the baddies taking advantage of the P2W situation. With balance they will also QQ about clan nerfs as they opt to A. Pay more $ or B. Go back to being baddies.

[Yokaiko]

Khushrenada, on 27 July 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

well in my opinion it is straight P2w, UNTIL they are available in the ingame shop for c-bills.

the clan mechs right now is a straight "pay money to get power" system, which is clearly P2w.

the clan mechs are all way faster than their IS counterparts (in weight).

Both lights and direwolf say hi! Oh and most IS mediums are faster than Nova

Khushrenada, on 27 July 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

the clan balistic weapons are roughly the same, except for the UAC versions. you can`t get anything else than UAC5 for c-bills, while with a clan mech you get the ultimate close range weapon in game, the UAC20. -> pay for power.

Yeah, try playing with them, power my arse, the big UACs are more like lasers they spread all over the place, they are really only good when boated all to hell.

Khushrenada, on 27 July 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

the missile systems are again roughly the same, except for the streak variants, which go for the clans up to streak6 at the same weight as standard srm6 for IS, so again you get more powerful weapons only if you pay money -> pay for power

7 second cycle time on SSRM6, they are damn useless,

Khushrenada, on 27 July 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

now at the energy weapons, things go really crazy. here we have straight power ups through the whole lot, ERlasers have a lot more range, energy weapons do flat out more damage (IS ERppc 10 while clan ERppc does 15). so here we have a tremendous power spike for the people that throw money at pgi -> pay for power

Oh where to start with this ****.

clan lasers have more heat and more burn time across the board, the pulses are utter trash, the range is nice, but I would love regular larges just to keep the heat down, not to mention longer burn, longer cycle.

the 15 point PPC you don't GET most of the time. Hit at arm? Lost 2.5 Hit a leg? Same, pogo sticks? lost 5 damage on the CT won't spread to the head, and usually won't hit the legs for this you pay 5 heat per shot.

Khushrenada, on 27 July 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

besides running IS mechs alongside CLAN mechs in the matches feels like ****** the whole battletech canon... good job at that pgi

What? PGI dicked the dog? I'm amazed.

[PANZERKAT]

Just pretend it's the Dark Ages. It SORT of passes muster in that time frame. Also, the Clans captured MANY IS mechs and put them into storage and it isn't incredibly far fetched to assume that many second line warriors had to make do with IS designs. Even the Orion is considered an honour to pilot by clanners as it was Kerensky's mech.