82 replies to this topic

[Necroconvict]

So, as I build a mech, like so many do. I am looking at my current build, with an XL 220 engine, that says I need 2 more heat sinks, yet I have a higher HEAT MGMT than most of the guys I play with, at 1.45 Honestly, this doesn't even make sense, knowing that some people rock into battle with the "required" heat sinks, and have stats as low as 0.87 some probably even lower... Why can't we have a minimum HEAT MGMT requirement instead of minimum heat sinks? I know we have all seen mechs blow up from heat... and we just stare in wonder...

[Snowcrow]

It's because the game is based on tabletop. Either you have to add the two heat sinks or they would have to make them internal which means a two tons heavier engine.

The developers don't want to break stock builds, and the majority of the community agrees with them on this issue.

Edited by Snowcrow, 19 July 2014 - 07:04 AM.

[Tesunie]

All engines require 10 heat sinks just to operate properly.

It's like trying to run your car engine with only a single quart of oil when it needs 4-6 quarts of oil for proper running. (Or even being down only a single quart of oil and calling it close enough, then wondering why after a while your engine is making this strange tapping sound...)

It could be like trying to start your car with a single 9V battery as another possible example...

[3rdworld]

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

So, as I build a mech, like so many do. I am looking at my current build, with an XL 220 engine, that says I need 2 more heat sinks, yet I have a higher HEAT MGMT than most of the guys I play with, at 1.45 Honestly, this doesn't even make sense, knowing that some people rock into battle with the "required" heat sinks, and have stats as low as 0.87 some probably even lower... Why can't we have a minimum HEAT MGMT requirement instead of minimum heat sinks? I know we have all seen mechs blow up from heat... and we just stare in wonder...

mostly to do with MWO's construction rules. In BTech the 10 HS are "free" and are tied to the tonnage of the engine. In MWO that isn't the case.

In Btech rules a STD 220 weighs 10 tons
In MWO a STD 220 = 14 tons

The difference is MWO 10 tons engine + 3tons in Cockpit + 3 tons in Gyro - 2 tons HS = 14 tons.

^ is why you won't see the UrbanMech in MWO. a STD 60 engine that it uses weighs 1.5 tons, in MWO that engine would weigh 1.5 + 3 tons cockpit + 1 ton Gyro - 8 tons HS = -2.5tons.....the engine would have to weigh a negative amount, for the mech to be possible.

Though the 10 HS rules is stupid. If a mech "needs" 10 HS to operate, it would die if a HS is destroyed taking it below that threshold (which doesn't happen).

Edited by 3rdworld, 19 July 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[Necroconvict]

If the game were actually based on Tabletop, we wouldn't have double armor, and AC weapons except for ultras I think would fire at the same rate. That being AC 2, 5, 10, and 20. So if they are picking and choosing what to disregard, why not let off the engine heat sink requirement. If you are not running to the point of exploding while shooting a single laser... on an ice map...

[3rdworld]

Tesunie, on 19 July 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

All engines require 10 heat sinks just to operate properly.

That isn't true at all, mount a 220 engine, put the other 2 HS in your arm. Have someone blow off that arm.....does the mech die? nope, so why exactly did it need the 10 HSs? Also if that was the case wouldn't 5 DHS be all it needed as well?

[Necroconvict]

3rdworld, on 19 July 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

mostly to do with MWO's construction rules. In BTech the 10 HS are "free" and are tied to the tonnage of the engine. In MWO that isn't the case.

In Btech rules a STD 220 weighs 10 tons
In MWO a STD 220 = 14 tons

The difference is MWO 10 tons engine + 3tons in Cockpit + 3 tons in Gyro - 2 tons HS = 14 tons.


Though the 10 HS rules is stupid. If a mech "needs" 10 HS to operate, it would die if a HS is destroyed taking it below that threshold (which doesn't happen).

So they already violated tabletop rules then, in a way that is kinda harmful to the construction of mechs.

[3rdworld]

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

So they already violated tabletop rules then, in a way that is kinda harmful to the construction of mechs.

Didn't violate it. Just moved the weight around. It still equals the exact same as TT, just in a different package.

[Necroconvict]

Tesunie, on 19 July 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

All engines require 10 heat sinks just to operate properly.

It's like trying to run your car engine with only a single quart of oil when it needs 4-6 quarts of oil for proper running. (Or even being down only a single quart of oil and calling it close enough, then wondering why after a while your engine is making this strange tapping sound...)

It could be like trying to start your car with a single 9V battery as another possible example...

I think the heat sinks, don't really work like a 9 volt battery, or oil. A nice try to plug the giant hole, known as required 10 heat sinks lol!

[3rdworld]

Also if 10 HS were required for the engine to operate, the first 10 would give you no dissipation, as they would be needed for the engine.

This also doesn't happen, and is even more evidence that the 10 HS rule is just completely arbitrary.

[Necroconvict]

3rdworld, on 19 July 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

Also if 10 HS were required for the engine to operate, the first 10 would give you no dissipation, as they would be needed for the engine.

This also doesn't happen, and is even more evidence that the 10 HS rule is just completely arbitrary.

That is a really good point.

[Tesunie]

3rdworld, on 19 July 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

That isn't true at all, mount a 220 engine, put the other 2 HS in your arm. Have someone blow off that arm.....does the mech die? nope, so why exactly did it need the 10 HSs? Also if that was the case wouldn't 5 DHS be all it needed as well?

Well, just like a car, a mech needs 10 operational heat sinks to properly cool it's engine under normal long term operations. You build your mechs to operate for more than a couple of hours properly, but to last. When your mech looses a heat sink in combat, it is able to continue working for the remainder of the battle. However, if you were to continue to run that mech (damaged) without the full 10 heat sinks, it would start to damage the engine.

Just like a car with oil (or even radiator fluid). It can run for a while without all the needed oil, but if you run your engine for extended periods of time without the required levels of oil, you start to do serious harm to the internal workings of your engine.

I mean, I can (and have) run my metro for a while with serpentine belt. That belt controls my alternator (electricity maker to run the engine and recharge the battery), water pumb (which forces coolant to run through my engine) and other "stuff". Just because my car could run without that belt, doesn't mean I don't need it on my car. It's very important, and for short distances it was fine. If I continued to run my car without that belt, I would kill my battery quickly, and if I continued to get it to run and continue to drive my car, I'd overheat and destroy the engine head/block, killing my car.

It's all part of the lore of BT, and it honestly does make a lot of sense when you think about it. Just try to relate it to real objects that already exist, a car makes a good example in this case. Just because "it can run without them" doesn't mean that it'd be considered good for the mech to do so over a longer term. Thus, where the rule came from. (And I'm sure no one would wish to risk a fusion reactor overheating and exploding on them...)

[Necroconvict]

As I look in my 3050 book, the XL 300 Engine, in the Centurion D, is supposed to weigh 9.5 tons, yet in game it is coming in at 15.5 tons. Now above someone pointed out something about that incuding the weight of the cockpit, and the gyro, I don't remember in MWO if that is accurate. If so the 15.5 tons I guess would be right. Why not instead though, just give the Gyro, and the cockpit their own individual weight though. I mean we can see them right there in the mech. The internal structure has weight, the armor does. Everything else does that we install. Why not give those last pieces their own weight, and let engines remain as normal?

[Tesunie]

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

As I look in my 3050 book, the XL 300 Engine, in the Centurion D, is supposed to weigh 9.5 tons, yet in game it is coming in at 15.5 tons. Now above someone pointed out something about that incuding the weight of the cockpit, and the gyro, I don't remember in MWO if that is accurate. If so the 15.5 tons I guess would be right. Why not instead though, just give the Gyro, and the cockpit their own individual weight though. I mean we can see them right there in the mech. The internal structure has weight, the armor does. Everything else does that we install. Why not give those last pieces their own weight, and let engines remain as normal?

Gyro size is based on the size of the engine. The larger the engine, the larger/heavier the Gyro is. Thus, PGI place the Gryo weight (and crit slots) into the engines, so that the Gyro will be the same tonnage as it should be based on it's engine size. Cockpit was probably just added in for their ease of use, as it is required and can't be removed, and the engine is required anyway, so... They just stacked all required weight into the engine.

[Necroconvict]

If that is so, then how does the Flea exist? It has a 2 ton Gyro, the usual 3 ton Cockpit, 3 tons of armor, 10 heat sinks, 2 medium pulse lasers, a flamer, 2 small lasers, MASK with a 4 ton, 120 engine (endo steel structure) They did say they were making the flea right?

[Khobai]

Engines below 250 should always get 10 internal heatsinks. Yes thats different from tabletop. BUT it would help the Locust and Commando.

[Necroconvict]

The flea has a 4 ton engine as I mentioned, with the Gyro, and cockpit, that is 9 tons, with only 6 heat sinks. so with 4 more, that will be 13 tons. the pulse lasers will put it at 17, 2 small lasers at 18, the flamer at 19, and 3 tons of armor, at 22.... 2 tons over. I think.

Tesunie, on 19 July 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Gyro size is based on the size of the engine. The larger the engine, the larger/heavier the Gyro is. Thus, PGI place the Gryo weight (and crit slots) into the engines, so that the Gyro will be the same tonnage as it should be based on it's engine size. Cockpit was probably just added in for their ease of use, as it is required and can't be removed, and the engine is required anyway, so... They just stacked all required weight into the engine.

Ok so the Gyro size is based upon the engine, so I know such a multiplyer could be set up in something like an excel spread sheet. If Engine = y then Gryo = Z.... wouldn't that be pretty simple?

[3rdworld]

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

If that is so, then how does the Flea exist? It has a 2 ton Gyro, the usual 3 ton Cockpit, 3 tons of armor, 10 heat sinks, 2 medium pulse lasers, a flamer, 2 small lasers, MASK with a 4 ton, 120 engine (endo steel structure) They did say they were making the flea right?

The FLE-17

Tons : Item
1 - Structure
4 - Engine
2 - Gyro
3 - Cockpit
1 - Masc
3 - Armor
4 - MPL
1 - SLs
1 - Flamer

20 tons

The only difference in MWO it would be

1 - Structure
3 - Engine
6 - HS
1 - Mask
3 - Armor
4 - MPL
1 - SLs
1 - Flamer

The only thing that MWO rules make impossible is an engine under a 90 rating, everything else should be fine. A 90 rating would actually weigh 0 in MWO terms.

Edited by 3rdworld, 19 July 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[Necroconvict]

So how does the standard 120 weigh in at 3 tons, with the cockpit, and the Gyro weighing in at 5 tons all on their own?

[3rdworld]

Necroconvict, on 19 July 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

The 120 engine only has 6 heat sinks, you have to add 4 more

Ya, I updated the post. In both cases either engine + Gyro + Cockpit or Engine + extra HS weigh 9 tons.