372 replies to this topic

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Artgathan, on 24 July 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

The better way to increase the Light Queue Population would be to make Lights as a whole better. Simply using Economic Incentives only encourages people who need cash to play Lights (ergo, not everyone wants/needs "that $$$$$"). Again, it doesn't help Lights be useful from a game-play (meaning when you're sitting in the cockpit of the mech) perspective.

We've already talked about actual objectives to make the useful. How would you make them better and still be able to call them Lights? If you increase their survivability to absorb the high damage PP Alphas then they really can't be considered a Light, but an incredibly fast Medium.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Technoviking, on 24 July 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Changing peoples minds.

We're not trying to change people's mind. A Light Mech is going to be a fragile Mech simply because it's a Light. We're not going to be able to alter someone's perception that a Light Mech is suddenly a walking turret. What we can do is make the Light Mech more attractive as a way to increase earnings for the people who currently use more durable STOMPSTOMP Mechs. Diversify the field. Give a player options. Do I want to play a Mech that will die if sneezed on, but possibly earn much more C-Bill/XP or do I want to play in a STOMPSTOMP Mech and PEWPEW. The two ways to do that in the simplest way possible is increase its earning potential and/or adding actual objectives to the game.

Both of those suggestions do not arbitrarily penalize any other player in the game. Yes, an effective Light pilot will earn more. But that doesn't change the fact that they're in a Light and not a walking turret.

If you (not you personally Techno, but as a collective pronoun) pilot a Heavy and Assault and you are QQ about other people earning more money in a Light while you can facetank sh*t left and right... srsly? You want to earn more in your walking turret over those in Lights? GTFO. You get a reward for doing something challenging.

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 24 July 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[Jman5]

Ever since they implemented the queue numbers, I have never seen the light queue as low as it has been this last week or so. It's been hovering at single digits pretty consistently.

[Kmieciu]

Actually, the Assault mechs are pretty well balanced. I see their number hovering around 25% around Europe prime time. Lights are 10%, Mediums are 15% and 50% of the pilots use Heavy mechs. This is mainly do to Clan mechs. You can get a clan heavy that rivals an IS Assault in firepower, but it's moving at twice the speed.
If you put 2 PPCs and 2 AC5s on a CTF, you'll probably score more damage and kills than an Atlas armed with those weapons. A fast heavy mech, going 75+ kph, equipped with jump jets, has the opportunity to deal much more damage. Timber Wolf has 30% less armor than an Atlas but 68% more speed. It is simply more efficient than an Assault mech.

[-Natural Selection-]

Drop in 9 man and fill it 0/3/3/3. 99% of the time the light spots are filled with meds, heavies or assaults. Most groups do not want to give up their weight to people outside the group, plus you get extra weight.

Theory craft more, but it is how it has been playing out.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 24 July 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

f stock armor was a deciding factor in max armor... The choice between Griffin and Kintaro wouldn't be "Same thing, ooo! Jumpjets! Take the Griffin."
The choice would be "Griffin for jumpjets or Kintaro for better armor. The lowest armored Kintaro is equal to the highest armored Griffin, and that Kintaro has slightly better hardpoints. But of course the Griffin can jump. What's more valuable to you?"

Too be fair, hardpoint sizes could do something similar. The NBT-HC mod for MW4 did some really good things when it came to balance between mechs of similar roles with different equipment options. Generally the mechs without JJs, ECM, BAP, or LAMS had unmatched raw firepower where as your jumping mechs, AMS mechs, or electronic mechs sacrificed potential firepower (through hardpoints) for the potential to mount those equipment. Thus a jumping mech going ***-for-tat with a landpig would lose because the landpigs always had the higher alphas or the better firepower.

A similar approach could've been taken here, though armor would be interesting to a degree, the problem is that most of the pre-Clan Invasion era mechs pretty much had ****** armor outside a few cases (the Awesome being one) so there would definitely have to be some flexibility with that option. But I digress, we all know PGI will never implement such a thing either way.

[Magna Canus]

majora incarnate, on 25 July 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

Too be fair, hardpoint sizes could do something similar. The NBT-HC mod for MW4 did some really good things when it came to balance between mechs of similar roles with different equipment options. Generally the mechs without JJs, ECM, BAP, or LAMS had unmatched raw firepower where as your jumping mechs, AMS mechs, or electronic mechs sacrificed potential firepower (through hardpoints) for the potential to mount those equipment. Thus a jumping mech going ***-for-tat with a landpig would lose because the landpigs always had the higher alphas or the better firepower.

A similar approach could've been taken here, though armor would be interesting to a degree, the problem is that most of the pre-Clan Invasion era mechs pretty much had ****** armor outside a few cases (the Awesome being one) so there would definitely have to be some flexibility with that option. But I digress, we all know PGI will never implement such a thing either way.

Honestly hardpoint size does nothing for making light mechs more attractive. Most lights use smaller weapons like ML/MG/SL/SPL. There are the odd-balls out there that put an ERPPC in a Spider and if you are limited to small weapons you just took those pilots out of the light chassis and achieve the reverse of what we want to do.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Magnakanus, on 25 July 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

Honestly hardpoint size does nothing for making light mechs more attractive. Most lights use smaller weapons like ML/MG/SL/SPL. There are the odd-balls out there that put an ERPPC in a Spider and if you are limited to small weapons you just took those pilots out of the light chassis and achieve the reverse of what we want to do.

Lets put it this way, if there would be hardpoint sizes, a hardpoint that could fit a PPC would be able to fit 2-3 ML in its place. So it can go either way, it all depends on how it is implemented. Plus compared to the Firestarter, its not like the current hardpoint system works. The Spider 5V is a perfect example of why lights are bad in this game, they simply aren't allowed to carry any appreciable amount of weaponry because it all boils down to boating small/medium lasers and machine guns. Now if they actually made things like BAP on par with ECM in power and then made AMS as well as BAP sparcely available, except for lights, they might have more purpose. They will never be anything more than a support unit unless objectives are added to give them more purpose. That or limiting arty/air strikes to them and mediums but honestly I dislike that option for the simple fact arty/air strikes shouldn't have ever been a module.

That or they could give some sort of ammo boost for light mechs so ammo consuming weapons are more attractive on them.

Edited by majora incarnate, 25 July 2014 - 01:28 AM.

[Magna Canus]

Koniving, on 24 July 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Agreed.

Personally, I think a huge problem with weights in general rests almost entirely with armor and frequently fired front loaded damage.

• A bit less firing frequency (shoot less often) on pinpoint damage weapons that are meant to be that way (Gauss Rifle, PPCs).
  
• Reducing/removing pinpoint damage on IS autocannons (perhaps putting Clan style burst fires on IS, but Clan mechs having their shot count to do x damage increased. More spacing between the individual shots that are part of the trigger pull as well).
  
• Reducing LRM counts back to 120 per ton.
  
• Reducing LRM / SRM firing frequency to encourage either chain firing or hit and run (for LRMs lob and move) tactics.
  
• Increasing heat back to canon values for all large class lasers and type 20 class autocannons (of all varieties) (Consider this: ER Large Laser 12 heat. IS 8 damage, Clan 10 damage. It's currently 8.5 heat, IS 9 damage and Clan 11.25 damage. Why the **** is a 'Nerfed Clan' weapon doing MOAR damage compared to the IS than the TT IS to Clan damage ratio. And why is it colder? Is it any wonder there's so damn many ER Large Lasers going around?)
  
• Apply a pinpoint-okay but mech movement-controlled reticule bounce drawn from the actual mech cockpit (not the first person model but the third person), requiring skill and timing to make good shots when moving at running speed. This means mechs will slow down for easier precision shots and a player with good timing could effectively use actual player skill as the equivalent of TT's "Gunnery" skill.
  
• Reduce heat threshold to no higher than 60 though preferably less Maintain threshold to be the same no matter how many heatsinks there are. (This makes single heatsinks viable. At 60, it'd take 1 minute to cool off from overheat to zero. At 30 it'd take 30 seconds. So 30 threshold is simply more preferred).

With changes made above, remove ghost heat.



Now take all engines. If mech starts at 129 kph, it should be faster than mechs that start at 97 (...which is currently NOT true in this game). Revamp accordingly.

Now take stock armor on all mechs and use this as a base to set new maxes. A Raven 3-L is developed as a scout and information warfare tool. However, a Raven 4X is by canon built as a brawling light that can outperform some mediums and heavies. ...Certainly can't be true if all mechs can slap on their current max armors, now is it? In fact because the Raven 4X starts with so much armor the mech's hardpoints are awful.

This leads to another interesting point: The meta mechs are those with great hardpoints that came at sacrifices which no longer apply in this game. The Cataphract 3D for example sacrificed armor. The Cataphract 4X had a huge sacrifice in speed.

Cataphract 4X's sacrifice is complained about on a daily basis. "It's so slow!" Thus it is not meta. What about the Cataphract 3D? Why isn't its sacrifice reflected? Why can its armor go so high? We know why it's meta. Speed + Armor + hardpoints + jumpjets. The armor factor alone would really deter it from being meta (as 65, 60, and some 55 ton mechs have more armor stock).

With a stock-based limit on armor and armor alone... this game would be immensely different.

Now imagine if replacing the skeleton of the mech cost more than 750,000 and took months or wasn't even an option. Imagine if Ferro really was the only weight saving choice you could realistically use. Imagine if the choice between a standard engine and an XL engine really was a choice. Imagine if you had to pay to replace the parts you lost.

Just imagine...how different the game would be. All it would take... Yes, all it would take... is just a little effort on PGI's part. Not convoluted mechanics. Not goofy crap. Just a little bit of effort. Real. Genuine. Effort. A few moments of intelligent thought.

On the armor thought... If a 20 ton mech that at stock has 4 tons of armor is 480 points less than a mech with 19 tons of armor can only put on 4.3 tons of armor, then why is a 35 ton mech whom at stock has 4 tons of armor and is 480 points less than a mech with 19 tons of armor...allowed to put on 7.3 tons? What makes that heavier light mech more entitled when they both had the same armor? It has that limited amount of armor to stash in more weapons and it has those. It also already has the benefit of more structure health; in fact it has almost double the structure health. Does it really need ghost armor too?

What makes that 35 ton mech more special than the 20 ton mech when they both started with the same amount of armor? If two mechs had the same armor, regardless of tonnage, and while one has great speed but limited weapons and the other has good speed but slightly better weapons and jumpjets, you'd still grab that mech with the jumpjets and more weapons. So why does it need ghost armor?


What makes a 65 ton heavy -- whose body is small and lanky because it starts with 6 tons of armor -- entitled to have the same 13.5 tons of armor that another 65 ton mech, whose body is huge and fat to reflect that additional armor? Why should the tiny, skinny mech be allowed to have the same armor as that huge, fat mech, when it started with less than half of it?

If stock armor was a deciding factor in max armor... The choice between Griffin and Kintaro wouldn't be "Same thing, ooo! Jumpjets! Take the Griffin."
The choice would be "Griffin for jumpjets or Kintaro for better armor. The lowest armored Kintaro is equal to the highest armored Griffin, and that Kintaro has slightly better hardpoints. But of course the Griffin can jump. What's more valuable to you?"

It's so simple.. So very simple...

Hey Koniving,
I usually love most of your ideas, but there are a couple of things I would like to pick at here:
FLD: Currently FLD is the only advantage the IS has over the raw number of Clan weapons any given clan mech can bring to bear. Placing the same mechanic on IS mechs as is used for Clan mechs makes IS mechs vastly inferior. There is not a single IS mech that can bring the amount of bundled firepower a Direwolf can (Hex UAC5 for example) and few IS mechs can field the number of weapons of a clan mech of the same weight class. Yes, in theory you can spread out the damage, but with frequent 1000+ and even 1500+ damage results I have seen for Direwhales, it does not matter apperently. The time it takes you to get out of the firing line compounded with the amount of armor you have makes it so. With 6xUAC5 the initial burst is the same as FLD with the added bonus of more damage the longer your target takes to get out of the way.

Compound that with forcing people to stand still to get a good shot off (bobing reticle). It is going to kill the game for people that already have difficulties hitting the enemy anyways, but do enough on average to still keep them relatively effective. The whole mechanic will have the same effect that the gauss charge mechanic did; the more skilled adapted and the gauss died out for the less skilled, but in that case it may be a loss of players instead of the disuse of a single weapon. It also makes clan weapons even more effective because their target is standing still trying to get a good shot off themselves and making it easier to put all of your burst fire where you want it, making the solution effect of burst fire moot to boot. It will also kill lights even more and maybe even mediums since these weight classes depend on mobility to stay alive, need to shoot on the run, and the current reward system is geared towards damage+kills=C-bills. Imagine a jenner stopping for a split second to get a shot off because the pilot can't handle the added reticle bob... dead jenner and potentially lost player.

I agree with you on the LRM part (Reduced ROF/AMMO), but am not quite sure placing the heat values for ERLL back to 12 and leaving PPC at 10 would be a smart move to reduce FLD. More likely it would just replace the ERLL with the PPC on the field thus increasing FLD unless you changed the PPC to a burst fire weapon as well.

I'm not really sold on the idea of stock armor as a base value for max armor. It sounds like it will kill more chassis in game than those that are already dead, but that is just a gut feeling.

[Magna Canus]

majora incarnate, on 25 July 2014 - 01:26 AM, said:

Lets put it this way, if there would be hardpoint sizes, a hardpoint that could fit a PPC would be able to fit 2-3 ML in its place. So it can go either way, it all depends on how it is implemented. Plus compared to the Firestarter, its not like the current hardpoint system works. The Spider 5V is a perfect example of why lights are bad in this game, they simply aren't allowed to carry any appreciable amount of weaponry because it all boils down to boating small/medium lasers and machine guns. Now if they actually made things like BAP on par with ECM in power and then made AMS as well as BAP sparcely available, except for lights, they might have more purpose. They will never be anything more than a support unit unless objectives are added to give them more purpose. That or limiting arty/air strikes to them and mediums but honestly I dislike that option for the simple fact arty/air strikes shouldn't have ever been a module.

That or they could give some sort of ammo boost for light mechs so ammo consuming weapons are more attractive on them.

I get what you are saying and trying to get at, but realistically for most non-light mechs trading a PPC for 2-3ML is a general loss (less range, no FLD, with 2 ML no damage gain with less heat, with 3 +5 damage gain for +2 heat).

For light mechs like the SDR-5K it makes no difference anyways because they don't have the tonnage for an extra ML unless they give up some MG ammo, which with 4 MGs would make their overall effect less.

Sized hardpoints in general is a neat idea, but it will not "save the lights". From first hand experience with the PC games the hardpoint size system did not make me go "wow, I want to run a light because I can boat more ML".

Making BAP better is always good, but limiting AMS is simply bad, especially just to lights who, as previously noted, have tonage issues anyways. Put the pressure on lights to be the guy that has to give out 1,5 tons for minimum AMS and you will see fewer of them on the field as we do now, plus you take them away from their scouting duties because everybody wants them near the main group for AMS cover. Not good.

[Lykaon]

Viktor Drake, on 19 July 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with light mechs. They have been and still are one of the most effective mech classes in the game. There is absolutely nothing that will cause an enemy team to fall apart faster than a couple of lights harassing the backfield, NARCing, TAGing and generally causing havoc.

The thing about light mechs is they require a very different play style than any other mech in the game and this play style is not going to appeal to everyone or even more than a small minority of players. It is just like every other game out there. The vast majority of players are drawn to big weapons, big armor and big numbers which is why we are so top heavy.

The only way you are going to draw more people to lights is if you make them massively OPed.

Firstly, a couple of lights in the backfield will only make a poorly drilled team fall apart.Generally when I see this situation develop I just have my fast strike fall back and savage the little blighter, It is routine for "important" matches to have a good light slayer on the dropdeck.

Secondly,if the current trend in game play continues then yes,light mechs will remain by and large only usefull to organized teams that use unified strategy and well developed tactics.So puggies will still be at a loss for how a light mech works.

However,if maps were made larger and mission critical locations were not always fixed to known locations we would need recon.

Imagine a map 4 times the size of alpine and somewhere on that map were 5 capture points that are critical to winning the match.The hitch is we do not know where they spawn because it's random.We do not know where each team will spawn because it's random.

Now we will need to recon the area to find the objectives.We would need proper intel to commit slower mechs to the battle so we don't get out manuvered by mediums and faster heavy mechs.Quick strikes and withdraw manuvers have meaning because reinforcements are not a grid square away.

Maybe "casuals" won't like this perhaps puggies won't like thinking hard to win many players see this game as smash em up robots! so,I guess that is what the solo queue can be for.

[oldradagast]

In the end, lights simply aren't that much fun for most of the population:

1) They don't do as much damage typically. Sure, if you're good, you can get more damage, but then again, you'd probably do even MORE in a heavier mech. And since the game offers laughably rewards for non-damage contributions, rewards feel really light for playing lights.

2) Role warefare as-is is boring. Yeah, I get to run around a map and stand in squares while everyone else fights. Or, I can be nibbled to death by turrets - satisifying! Or, I can play death match and feel nearly useless after finding the enemy.

3) Limited weapons options: Medium lasers, machine guns, and... ummmm.... Tag and maybe Narc? I guess you can stick one large laser on, maybe, and that's it. There just such a shortage of interesting and effective builds for light mechs because of the lack of tonnage and weapons that weight between 1 and 5+ tons.

4) Pinpoint damage: We all know about this - one good hit, and you die. In a game with already low time to kill, it's terrible in lights.

5) Increased falling damage: Because nothing is more fun than losing a leg while running away because you're outgunned! The fun of light mechs...

Ugh... they just don't have anything but speed and small size going for them. If they had more consumable slots than any other mech, that would be cool - then they'd be the ones setting up the strikes, for example. Or, if they were harder to see on radar... or if they were barely visible seismic AND could use seismic while moving at half speed or less... just some ideas...

[Disapirro]

My 2 cents is simply that lights seem much squishier over the past month. I have yet to put my finger on what it is exactly, but average combat life has definitely dropped for me. It can be frustrating, and I can see people wanting to change to a different weight class.

Of course my experience could just be a bad run and have nothing to do with population in general, but I don’t believe that.

[Greyboots]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 July 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Lights have the natural disadvantages of having little armor, internal health, and not being able to equip much in the way of weaponry and equipment. This has been balanced in the past by lights having extreme mobility. A good light pilot can choose when and where he or she wants to fight, can get to strategically-important positions quickly, and can often get a view of the developing battlefield before the rest of the team. In high-level play being "harder to hit" doesn't come into play, as a skilled opponent will be able to hit you regardless of how fast you're moving. To wit, lights have always been extremely vulnerable to high-damage alphas removing legs or side torsos in a salvo or two.

Despite this high-risk play style, many of PGI's balance changes have made lights even riskier and less rewarding to play.

Turrets make it so lights can't threaten the enemy team with a base cap.

No-min-range Clan LRMs mean lights aren't safe from guided weaponry up close.

Fall damage means lights will often take significant damage before the enemy is even engaged.

The jump jet nerf means that lights have a much harder time getting out of bad situations, and if you reserve fuel to prevent extreme leg damage you get very little jump jet height in the first place, even with 5+ jj.

Every single balance patch doesn't do anything to get rid of the oft-maligned "pop tart" but cripples high-mobility game play even further.

Nah. Light mech earnings just typically suck. With Clan Mechs on the way for cBills everyone is in a money making frenzy and playing the solid earners is all. I still play my lights every day I play but concentrate on the money makers instead. I know a whole bunch of people doing the same.

When I play my lights I'm having no unfixable issues. Things have changed so you need to adapt to survive. If you can't adapt then yes, you're going to get hammered.
Had some awesome games in my NARC Jenner today. My Commando also got a good run as did my Firestarter. Guess I'll have to grab some video tomorrow and put it out there.

[Y E O N N E]

I still run my Locusts in group queue and make around 340 damage per match as the norm and around 400 as the regular oddball.

I also occasionally get one-shotted, but c'est la vie. Sometimes you have to take a calculated risk when you try to set up a UAV or line up a strike in the best possible locations.

I question the wisdom of anybody who says there are no interesting builds for lights. Let's look at just the Locust for a second: you can do the usual medium laser spam and go for machine gun crit, get ballsy and use nothing but small [pulse] lasers, build a ~10 DPS monster by stacking 4 SRM2 and a small laser, run with a high-speed ERPPC sniper, and even go with six flamers to keep the hot-running meta builds toasty during a brawl. You can also troll around with a single AC/2 if you are playing for the lulz.

Now, you can do similar things with any other light. The least flexible is the Spider, and only because there is no variant with missiles (boooo!).

[That Dawg]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 July 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

OP made too many intelligent observations

BAN HIM!!1!!!!

[CeeKay Boques]

This thread may be working, was pretty 25% across the board for awhile last night.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sandpit, on 23 July 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

well of course. You can always tell the difference when someone is doing something they like and enjoy as opposed to JUST for a paycheck.

that is not fair for him to say. I doubt they are doing this just for money.

say what they like, the truth is nobody has to buy anything. Why would they make a game where you do not really have to spend any money to play? Besides when they started with the kick starter, nobody had to spend another dime.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 25 July 2014 - 05:42 AM.

[SaltBeef]

I still hold the position that if all mechs from light to assault had thier durability increased by 1 half to a 3rd for both internal and external the issues would be resolved. 50 point alpha could not 1 shot any mech. Slow lights could use thier speed to escape. The overal feel of battletech wouldn't be ruined. The weapons damage should not be increased makes it harder to kill all mechs. Matches have to be extended to 20 mins

Edited by SaltBeef, 25 July 2014 - 05:47 AM.

[mogs01gt]

I saw 20%+ last night. Mainly ECM lights though. A few firestarters.