57 replies to this topic

[Prezimonto]

Let me start with: THIS IS A GREAT IDEA!!!!

I've suggested similar things in the past, but I'm glad this post is actually getting some traction.

So how about a suggestion for a new reward:

How about the "squirrel" reward. Something like the longer you're the active target of the enemy team the larger the bonus. Dem pesky lights.

Something like 24xp and 2400 cbills (used multiples of 4 could be anything) for every 36 seconds (3 seconds per mech on the enemy team) of total "active target" time you gain a reward, and it's split 75/25 with players who damaged the mechs who were targeting you or not, if you just run them around in circles while your team also isn't looking.

Edited by Prezimonto, 24 July 2014 - 05:16 AM.

[Livewyr]

Teamwork is OP. Do not buff it in any way, including incentives.

[VanillaG]

Khobai, on 24 July 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

I disagree. BAP is passive. You shouldnt get rewards for passive use of equipment. Rewards should be for active participation only. Mechs with AMS or ECM equipped shouldnt get rewarded just for having them either, thats ridiculous. Bonuses should have to be earned by actively playing, not given freely for using passive equipment. Capping, Tag, NARC, are all examples of active participation which should give much bigger bonuses.

The premise of this thread is promote teamwork and there are certain aspects of play that do not reward team play and indirectly encourage selfish behavior. While the equipment is passive, positioning your mech to help your teammates is not. I lost count of the number of times I have seen messages like "ECM please stay with the group" and the ECM mech derped off by itself. There is no incentive for an ECM mech to stay with the group because they do not get a reward for doing so.

Look at the Kitfox with the 3xAMS and ECM arm. If there were rewards for providing ECM cover and shooting down missiles you could earn more without having to directly engage enemy mechs. Take a Locust with a TAG and have it work as a forward observer by Tagging targets and getting assists and damage based on the spotting they do. As it stands now, the only way to earn is to do damage. These additional types of rewards are a step in the direction for better role warfare because it now becomes possible to earn without having to do direct damage and the side affect is that encourages team play.

[Sandpit]

Lots of good ideas everyone! I think we might be on to something

[Khobai]

Quote

Since BAP is considered a counter to ECM, you should get a bonus for using it to counter ECM.

Thats like saying PPCs are a counter to ECM so you should get a bonus for hitting someone with PPCs. Its absurd.

Quote

The premise of this thread is promote teamwork and there are certain aspects of play that do not reward team play and indirectly encourage selfish behavior. While the equipment is passive, positioning your mech to help your teammates is not.

I didnt say you shouldnt get bonuses for teamwork. I just said you shouldnt get bonuses for passive equipment. Bonuses should be awarded for actively playing and playing well. You should not get bonuses just because you put a certain piece of equipment on your mech.

Edited by Khobai, 24 July 2014 - 07:51 AM.

[VanillaG]

Khobai, on 24 July 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

I didnt say you shouldnt get bonuses for teamwork. I just said you shouldnt get bonuses for passive equipment. Bonuses should be awarded for actively playing and playing well. You should not get bonuses just because you put a certain piece of equipment on your mech.

Just because the equipment is passive doesn't mean it does not require active play to employ. To earn those rewards you have to be in a position to help your teammates. Having a Kitfox reposition to provide AMS and ECM cover to a teammate that is getting LRMed is actively playing the game. In my mind it is no different than a LRM boat that provides supporting fire. The only real difference is that the LRM boat had to click a mouse button to earn their reward. Unlike UAV/Air/Arty, the equipment required to get those rewards takes up tonnage and crits.

[Prezimonto]

Khobai, on 24 July 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Thats like saying PPCs are a counter to ECM so you should get a bonus for hitting someone with PPCs. Its absurd.



I didnt say you shouldnt get bonuses for teamwork. I just said you shouldnt get bonuses for passive equipment. Bonuses should be awarded for actively playing and playing well. You should not get bonuses just because you put a certain piece of equipment on your mech.

I'd actually say the PPC's ECM affect could give a small bonus but only IF the targeted mech is hit by LRM or streak missiles while the PPC affect is in place. That's what it's supporting, otherwise you're already getting a damage bonus just for hitting the thing. That's a teamwork bonus rather than a solo bonus.

I think that's a hallmark of these types of rewards, they should be activated when a team mate responds to your actions.

In fact, in the example above for the "squirrel" reward, I might suggest that instead of splitting a 100% reward the other players just get bonus rewards for capitalizing on someone else's actions. Don't penalize the guy doing something dangerous for a team advantage.

VanillaG, on 24 July 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

Just because the equipment is passive doesn't mean it does not require active play to employ. To earn those rewards you have to be in a position to help your teammates. Having a Kitfox reposition to provide AMS and ECM cover to a teammate that is getting LRMed is actively playing the game. In my mind it is no different than a LRM boat that provides supporting fire. The only real difference is that the LRM boat had to click a mouse button to earn their reward. Unlike UAV/Air/Arty, the equipment required to get those rewards takes up tonnage and crits.

I will say this: to make the most of the UAV rewards you need to be very proactive in positioning before launching it. Unlike Air/Arty which should be much more difficult to use.

Better yet, we should turn the Air/Arty consumables into smoke walls rather than damage and the game should introduce Arrow launchers giving us a real artillery role in the game play.

Edited by Prezimonto, 24 July 2014 - 08:45 AM.

[VanillaG]

Prezimonto, on 24 July 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

I will say this: to make the most of the UAV rewards you need to be very proactive in positioning before launching it. Unlike Air/Arty which should be much more difficult to use.

That part was really directed at that fact that I can get rewards for using consumable modules that take up no weight or space but get little to no rewards for equipment that takes up space and crits. Adding AMS and ECM rewards and tweaking Spotting/TAG/Narc bonus to include rewarding an assist and a portion of the damage inflicted actually helps create the Information Warfare role that is missing.

[C E Dwyer]

Flash Frame, on 24 July 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

Correct, in TableTop. Clearly we're not going by that model or ECM wouldn't be as overpowered as it is. Since BAP is considered a counter to ECM, you should get a bonus for using it to counter ECM.

you do get a bonus for using it against bap

[C E Dwyer]

VanillaG, on 24 July 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

That part was really directed at that fact that I can get rewards for using consumable modules that take up no weight or space but get little to no rewards for equipment that takes up space and crits. Adding AMS and ECM rewards and tweaking Spotting/TAG/Narc bonus to include rewarding an assist and a portion of the damage inflicted actually helps create the Information Warfare role that is missing.

I am presuming that the damage ams does to incoming missiles adds to your damage total(I don't know, but if not it should)

I was thinking that PGI's claim that airstrikes and arty strikes were supposed to stop the game being static, and not so effective as to be a big desider

as mentioned they take up no weight or crit slots, seems degrading them so that the damage or the kill isn't rewarded to the user, the actual reward is the salvage share out for the winning team.

most equipement does actually have an xp c-bill reward just its paltery compared to the possible damage and kill credits a strike may do

[VanillaG]

Cathy, on 24 July 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

I am presuming that the damage ams does to incoming missiles adds to your damage total(I don't know, but if not it should)

You could add to the existing damage number, create a new AMS damage bucket, or create a new bucket that tracks the number of missiles destroyed. My personal preference would be create a new bucket based on missiles destroyed because a damaged missile still inflicts full damage and the reward would be for stopping damage.

You can take the same approach of creating new buckets for the tweaks for spotting assists and damage so you could tune the reward values separate from direct damage and assists. Tracking them separately also gives you ability to create new achievements based on the metrics. You could create an "Iron Dome" acheivement when you shoot down X number of missiles if you tracked them in a separate bucket.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Khobai, on 24 July 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Thats like saying PPCs are a counter to ECM so you should get a bonus for hitting someone with PPCs. Its absurd.

You already get a bonus for hitting someone with PPC's... in the form of C-bills for damaging components. Your argument defeats itself.

Oh and TAG defeats ECM and you get a bonus for it too. Same with NARC...

Hmm... seeing a pattern?

[Khobai]

Quote

You already get a bonus for hitting someone with PPC's... in the form of C-bills for damaging components. Your argument defeats itself.

Damaging someone with PPCs isnt passive though. My argument is that passive abilities shouldnt give rewards. Rewards should be given for playing well. Someone who equips AMS and ECM and then does 50 damage shouldnt get rewarded extra just because they equipped AMS and ECM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Khobai, on 24 July 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

Damaging someone with PPCs isnt passive though. My argument is that passive abilities shouldnt give rewards. Rewards should be given for playing well. Someone who equips AMS and ECM and then does 50 damage shouldnt get rewarded extra just because they equipped AMS and ECM.

So...positioning properly to counter ECM and Missiles with your ANTI ECM-Missile mechs is not playing well?

[Willard Phule]

Reward teamwork in the group queue.

It doesn't exist in the solo queue. Which makes sense because PGI has decided that anyone with a decent score must carry X noobs every single match.

GG Close, PGI, GG Close. Come on down to the cesspit you've created...let's see how well you do in the solo queue. I'm SURE we'll be happy to "carry" you...as opposed to simply legging you on sight.

[Scratx]

Fishhawk, on 23 July 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Teamwork is OP!! NERF Teamwork!!

They already did. It's called the Solo Queue.

[MischiefSC]

Actually I love 3/3/3/3 btw. Pugging and groups. Better diversity in mechs in matches than I've seen in a year. It's rare to see more than 4 assaults in any match; 3 is the most common. It's normaly within 2 total mechs of 3/3/3/3 on each side. This has also drastically reduced tonnage disparity.

Does it still happen?

Sure, but more like 1 in 20 instead of 1 in 4.

I see 2-4 mediums per team every match. That never happened before - unless it was your teams obligatory 2 Shads. No more 6 assaults, 4 heavies and a medium or a light (maybe) on each team. Just doesn't happen.

I would say 'rewarding teamwork' is a misnomer - I'd say we need to 'reward noncombat behavior', like capping, support roles and scouting. Especially for lighter mechs. What you don't want is everyone with a TW throwing on a 1.5 ton NARC and 1/2 ton of NARC ammo for an extra 500XP and 50k cbills.

Lights need rewards, so do mediums. What you don't want is the same issue that weapon creep has; heavies/assaults exploiting what's intended to be a perk for Lights and Mediums for an even bigger benefit for the bigger mechs.

[Prezimonto]

Okay, I just got done playing a game where I had a ton of fun and contributed greatly to the team.

I even received decent XP and cbills (even AFTER adjusting for the use of a UAV), though I did manage to deal 180 ish damage.

I was piloting a spider 5D with ECM, ER LL, and a tag. My random pug team brought some missiles and even, sometimes, used my tag spots. I actively tried to stay near the team and provide ECM, hoping out to counter the other's teams ECM Raven when he was being a pest. I used a UAV to light up to assaults who were about to roll into our back end towards the end of game, which is sub-par rewards for the UAV.

What bothers me is the match score calculation: grand total of 39. My personal score says I did great:


a little over 1500 XP (2x day) and after the UAV 118K without a premium account. That's a well above average match, at least for me. I earn much less than that with a much greater match score when dealing damage.

So why the disconnect? Why isn't the game proclaiming to all that I did a great job, even if it IS rewarding certain teamwork actions on a personal level?

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy the game official rewards 2 whole ways to play now (if not acknowledges your worth actively to other players if you're doing role 2):
1. damage dealer
2. support scout (TAG/NARC/teammates with missiles/UAV/ECM required to really do very well)

Where are the other role rewards? Do we need CW before we can talk about adding roles? Why don't more of the systems in the game reward synergy with other players? LRM's are the only weapon system that directly benefits from having a scout, why couldn't ALL weapon systems benefit from a scout?

Edited by Prezimonto, 25 July 2014 - 06:22 AM.