162 replies to this topic

[Malcolm Vordermark]

RetroActive, on 24 July 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Please point me in the direction of a viable Daishi build and video of said build killing a full armored Victor in 1.5 seconds.

Hint: You won't be able to.

I think this build is capable of doing it on the double tap. Since you need 150 damage if the Victor stacks it all forward. Not sure of exactly how long a UAC20 burst lasts, so it may not make it under 1.5 seconds. But while it may have the potential it is an unlikely outcome.

Edited by Rouken, 24 July 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 24 July 2014 - 02:32 AM, said:

The direwolf could still outgun any other mech even if it couldnt do 50 pinpoint damage.

Cgauss and cerppcs should be linked for ghost heat. That still wouldnt prevent it from doing 50 pinpoint damage, but at least it would have to pay for it with extra heat.

meh, forget GH. Link the same cycle factor that Gauss have, where you can't fire more than 2 at a time. de sync the weapons that way, and yes, the underhive will still cry and die, (but really, that's their role, or they wouldn't use a steering wheel) but the "problem" would be solved. It would also de-sync timbertarts and such.

[Gyrok]

Rouken, on 24 July 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

I think this build is capable of doing it. Since you need 150 damage if the Victor stacks it all forward. Not sure of exactly how long a UAC20 burst lasts, though. But while it has the potential it is an unlikely outcome.

You need 2 bursts because your firepower counts a double tap. (40 + 56 = 96) So basically, it takes minimum 5 seconds...and if you are aiming CT he has all his weapons until you kill him.

[Alexandrix]

Also,another problem that's related to this whole issue that hasn't been brought up in this thread yet.....

cSRM6 - max range 270 meters(don't bother wasting them above 200m tho) - ~12 damage spread all over the place
Cooldown - 4 seconds

cGauss - Max range 1,980 - 15 pinpoint damage
Cooldown - 4 seconds

Cerppc - max range 1,620 - 10 pinpoint dmg,5 splash dmg
cooldown - 4 seconds


does no one else see this as a problem?
The fact that 1,000+ meter range,pinpoint weapons share the same cooldown as a super short range,spread damage brawling weapon??

[Mcgral18]

Alexandrix, on 24 July 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Also,another problem that's related to this whole issue that hasn't been brought up in this thread yet.....

cSRM6 - max range 270 meters(don't bother wasting them above 200m tho) - ~12 damage spread all over the place
Cooldown - 4 seconds

cGauss - Max range 1,980 - 15 pinpoint damage
Cooldown - 4 seconds

Cerppc - max range 1,620 - 10 pinpoint dmg,5 splash dmg
cooldown - 4 seconds


does no one else see this as a problem?
The fact that 1,000+ meter range,pinpoint weapons share the same cooldown as a super short range,spread damage brawling weapon??

Along with superior damage application.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Gyrok, on 24 July 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

You need 2 bursts because your firepower counts a double tap. (40 + 56 = 96) So basically, it takes minimum 5 seconds...and if you are aiming CT he has all his weapons until you kill him.

Actually, it does not count the double tap.

4x ER LL = 45
5x ER ML = 35
2x UAC20 = 40

for a grand total of 120 firepower, which is what the build is displayed as on smurfy. The double tap adds 40 more making it 160.

[Solahma]

duel you say!?

[Bishop Steiner]

Alexandrix, on 24 July 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Also,another problem that's related to this whole issue that hasn't been brought up in this thread yet.....

cSRM6 - max range 270 meters(don't bother wasting them above 200m tho) - ~12 damage spread all over the place
Cooldown - 4 seconds

cGauss - Max range 1,980 - 15 pinpoint damage
Cooldown - 4 seconds

Cerppc - max range 1,620 - 10 pinpoint dmg,5 splash dmg
cooldown - 4 seconds


does no one else see this as a problem?
The fact that 1,000+ meter range,pinpoint weapons share the same cooldown as a super short range,spread damage brawling weapon??

yes and no.

SRM6 (IS) weight: 3 tons Critical: 2
Gauss (IS) weight:15 tons crits: 7

SRM6 (C) weight 1.5 tons Crits: 1
Gauss (C) weight 12 tons crits: 6

Cooldown i would like longer in the gauss, but lets not get myopic in comparing the balance issues, and the IS versions you are nearly 4x as bulky, and 5x the weight, whereas the Clan versions are 6x the bulk and 8x the mass.

Pretty steep trade off, for the range and damage.

Rouken, on 24 July 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Actually, it does not count the double tap.

4x ER LL = 45
5x ER ML = 35
2x UAC20 = 40

for a grand total of 120 firepower, which is what the build is displayed as on smurfy. The double tap adds 40 more making it 160.

and your heat? (GH on the UAC20s will shut you down if you DT them in the alpha, without the added GH from 4 ER LArge)

[RetroActive]

Rouken, on 24 July 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

I think this build is capable of doing it on the double tap. Since you need 150 damage if the Victor stacks it all forward. Not sure of exactly how long a UAC20 burst lasts, so it may not make it under 1.5 seconds. But while it may have the potential it is an unlikely outcome.

There's no way you're going to land all that damage on one location. So, you will not kill the Victor in 1.5 seconds.

Even if the Victor is a disconnect, you'll probably accidentally spread some damage if your mech is moving.

[Bilbo]

Rouken, on 24 July 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Actually, it does not count the double tap.

4x ER LL = 45
5x ER ML = 35
2x UAC20 = 40

for a grand total of 120 firepower, which is what the build is displayed as on smurfy. The double tap adds 40 more making it 160.

Well if he's silly enough to stare down the Direwolf while all those lasers burn off and two sets of ac/20 rounds pound his way he deserves whatever he gets.

[MilesTeg1982]

Alexandrix, on 24 July 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Also,another problem that's related to this whole issue that hasn't been brought up in this thread yet.....

cSRM6 - max range 270 meters(don't bother wasting them above 200m tho) - ~12 damage spread all over the place
Cooldown - 4 seconds

cGauss - Max range 1,980 - 15 pinpoint damage
Cooldown - 4 seconds

Cerppc - max range 1,620 - 10 pinpoint dmg,5 splash dmg
cooldown - 4 seconds


does no one else see this as a problem?
The fact that 1,000+ meter range,pinpoint weapons share the same cooldown as a super short range,spread damage brawling weapon??

I'm not sure what that mysterious problem is - but here are few things you really should think about:

1. the weight of cSRM6 (2.5 tons with Artemis) is much lower than cGausse (12ton!), it also needs less slots (2 with Artemis) than Gauss (6). therefore you will find even medium mechs (like the Kit Fox) being able to have 3 or 4 of these (I would not use more for ghostheat although that s possible). So for 1 cGausse with lets say 2 tons of ammo - you can get get 4 cSRM6 with 4 tons of ammo - which sums up to 48 damage (and and short range this does really hurt - even with the spread).

2. cER-PPCs - you do know that these create 15 heat? As a result - on a DWF (I tried that!) you can use 2 of them + 2 gausse - yes but you can not fire more than 2 Alphas with that without having to worry about heat. And to hit the same section of a mech when its moving is not as easy as many people argue, so its not really as big a problem as many think.

3. people complain about dual gausse / er-ppcs on DWF? fine, restrict that - but then also resctrict all the mediums/lights from using heavy balistics like AC20!

4. just wondering wether all those kids you want the DWF nerfed right now would start whine when it gets available for CBills ...

[DONTOR]

Khobai, on 24 July 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

I do 1400 damage in my direwolf without using either gauss or ppcs. Theyre not required for the direwolf to be a monster. But in order to make lights and mediums more popular we need to get the pinpoint damage under control. Lights and mediums should not be getting killed in 2-3 hits.

You mean 1 or 2 hits... also lights are the easiest way to kill a DW so it needs to be able to kill em if it hits... soooo slugish.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 July 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

and your heat?

Never said it was a good build. Someone asked to see a build that could CT core a fresh Victor.

But you have a point. UACs shut off mid burst if you shut down. You would have to change the build a little to 2xERLL, 7xERML, and 2xUAC20s to pick up 5 more DHS. Then override and double coolant flush to have any chance at all of both getting it off and surviving.

RetroActive, on 24 July 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

There's no way you're going to land all that damage on one location. So, you will not kill the Victor in 1.5 seconds.

Even if the Victor is a disconnect, you'll probably accidentally spread some damage if your mech is moving.

Its not impossible, just incredibly unlikely. At any rate, I'm just saying it is possible, not practical.

Edited by Rouken, 24 July 2014 - 09:56 AM.

[PlzDie]

MilesTeg1982, on 24 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

I'm not sure what that mysterious problem is - but here are few things you really should think about:

1. the weight of cSRM6 (2.5 tons with Artemis) is much lower than cGausse (12ton!), it also needs less slots (2 with Artemis) than Gauss (6). therefore you will find even medium mechs (like the Kit Fox) being able to have 3 or 4 of these (I would not use more for ghostheat although that s possible). So for 1 cGausse with lets say 2 tons of ammo - you can get get 4 cSRM6 with 4 tons of ammo - which sums up to 48 damage (and and short range this does really hurt - even with the spread).

2. cER-PPCs - you do know that these create 15 heat? As a result - on a DWF (I tried that!) you can use 2 of them + 2 gausse - yes but you can not fire more than 2 Alphas with that without having to worry about heat. And to hit the same section of a mech when its moving is not as easy as many people argue, so its not really as big a problem as many think.

3. people complain about dual gausse / er-ppcs on DWF? fine, restrict that - but then also resctrict all the mediums/lights from using heavy balistics like AC20!

4. just wondering wether all those kids you want the DWF nerfed right now would start whine when it gets available for CBills ...

So you can only do two alphas with the 2 cerppc/2cgauss DW putting out only 100 of pinpoint damage at range, and then you must worry about heat as well, this is horrible.

Yes let them nerf mediums and lights that uses the AC20, that 20 points of PP damage at 270m is OP.

[Alexandrix]

MilesTeg1982, on 24 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

**

I don't want the DW nerfed.I use one!
I just think a brawling weapon should be superior once you get into close quarters.gauss/erppc performing just as well,better even,than a brawling weapon....at brawling range....should not happen.If you manage to maneuver your way through LRM's and snipers to get within 270m of a gauss/pcc meta tard , he should be royally screwed....not just mildly inconvenienced as he pushes 1 button to turn you to slag.

yes,gauss and erppc's should be monsters at 800+ meter range.at 250 meters? no.

Edited by Alexandrix, 24 July 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[Mcgral18]

MilesTeg1982, on 24 July 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

I'm not sure what that mysterious problem is - but here are few things you really should think about:

1. the weight of cSRM6 (2.5 tons with Artemis) is much lower than cGausse (12ton!), it also needs less slots (2 with Artemis) than Gauss (6). therefore you will find even medium mechs (like the Kit Fox) being able to have 3 or 4 of these (I would not use more for ghostheat although that s possible). So for 1 cGausse with lets say 2 tons of ammo - you can get get 4 cSRM6 with 4 tons of ammo - which sums up to 48 damage (and and short range this does really hurt - even with the spread).

Now look at range. The gauss can be used to nearly 2 000M....SRMs to 270M. ERPPC goes to 1 620M.

Those long range weapons share the same cooldown (with a .75 charge for the gauss) yet none have a min range. So, you have a weapon that deals damage more favourably, with better ammo consumption, that has no min range and no heat. The other one has no ammo, but lots of heat. Both those options also have 6-7 times the SRM maximum range...

SRMs should be good weapons under 270M, not mediocre. Longer cooldowns on long range weapons are needed to not make them superior in a brawl to SRMs.

[Gas Guzzler]

You guys are all whining about SRMs not being good now? An Atlas with an AC20 and SRM 18 with Artemis will decimate a 50 pt alpha build Dire Wolf below 270m. The 50 pt alpha build will win at long range. Atlas will also move faster and have ECM.

[Khobai]

Quote

You guys are all whining about SRMs not being good now? An Atlas with an AC20 and SRM 18 with Artemis will decimate a 50 pt alpha build Dire Wolf below 270m.

Maybe if all the Dire Wolf is running is ERPPCs and Gauss. But thats stupid. My Gauss/ERPPC Dire Wolf has x2 ERPPC, x2 Gauss, x4 ERSL, and x4 MG. It can easily outbrawl any Atlas under 270m

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 July 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

You guys are all whining about SRMs not being good now? An Atlas with an AC20 and SRM 18 with Artemis will decimate a 50 pt alpha build Dire Wolf below 270m. The 50 pt alpha build will win at long range. Atlas will also move faster and have ECM.

Now, if we had the King Crab with 2 B and 2 E...would you still bring SRMs?

Pair of AC20s, either 1 or 2 PPCs, although some variants will also have 1 or 2 M.


SRMs are still in a sad state, but no longer worthless. I can't call them good weapons, they do mediocre damage for their maximum range, and all that damage is spread. Their saving grace is that they are light, at the cost of everything else.

Hot, bad ammo consumption, poor damage mechanic (CoF), one of the shortest range weapons in the game.

Edited by Mcgral18, 24 July 2014 - 10:54 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Rouken, on 24 July 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Actually, it does not count the double tap.

4x ER LL = 45
5x ER ML = 35
2x UAC20 = 40

for a grand total of 120 firepower, which is what the build is displayed as on smurfy. The double tap adds 40 more making it 160.

Does the cUAC20 not spit out 4 shells for 5 each? So if you stand in front of a DW long enough to eat 120 or 160, you should die, and then be ashamed you let your Team down so miserably.