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Nothing Breaks The Game Like Ecm


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#101 Bulletsponge0

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 02:20 PM

View PostZolaz, on 27 July 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:


Yo dawg, reading is fundamental ... like the next sentence.

it still isn't a true statement..

#102 o0Marduk0o

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 02:25 PM

Nothing else to talk about? Complains about ECM are so 2012.

#103 Zolaz

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 02:27 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 27 July 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Reading is fundamental. Did you think about what you read in his reply. His reply applies to the entire post. He's saying it's not true, for solo drops as well, not just coordinated 12 mans.


You can disagree with me if you want. Doesnt make it true, doesnt make it real. The team with ECM superiority is going to win more than a team without it. The team with LRM superiority is going to win more than a team without it. And, since you arent going to focus on this next sentence, let me just point this out again for emphasis. This is especially true when you solo queue drop. Solo queue isnt where the House of Lords are dropping. Solo queue isnt were you see a lot of red smoke. Solo queue isnt where you find tryhard builds and the meta.

I am just trying to help out those players who dont make 200 damage in their matches. If that is you, I am expressly talking to you ... get ECM and get LRMs. ECM/LRM mech is a combat multiplier, if you dont know what that is, go look it up. More than likely if you are disagreeing with me you are only focusing on a small part of my post. Listen to the guy who tells you it wont work, but you should verify for yourself.

My epeen is huge. I have 50 mechs. I have over 7k games played, been playing since closed beta. I have earned over 300 million c-bills. I have over 5k kills. I have had a KDR of 6. I have killed 7 enemies when it was only 8 mans. I am only sharing my stats in the hope that sub 200 damage players are listening because I want ya'll to do better. If PGI is going to put you on my team in solo queue carry your weight, so that I dont have to Carry Harder.

Posted Image

Good luck. If you see me in game and Im on your team I do notice if you dont do 200 damage.

#104 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 02:29 PM

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 27 July 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:


If it were so, I don't understand why rules say "Ecm suite generate a bubble" if it covers only the mech carrying it.
When I played bt, we used angel to cover friend units; otherwise what does the bubble serve for?

Doc is Correct, no where does it say Standard targeting in the description of Angel ECM. Neither ECM completely blocks Streaks. Guardian in MW:O is working nearly like a stealth system minus the heat problem.

#105 Naduk

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 02:38 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 26 July 2014 - 11:13 PM, said:

My LRM boat did a total of 200 damage.


who's fault is it that your driving an LRM boat
?

you clearly knew ECM was in the game before you clicked launch
it was not a surprise
you have NO right to come in here and sook about it, but running a boat your gimping your self and its nobodys problem but your own
its the same as someone with 4x PPC crying that Tera therma is to hot

if you had a PPC to work along side your LRM's you would of had little issue

my Griffons are LRM "boats" and they all carry a TAG and ERppc

#106 Prezimonto

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 02:39 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 26 July 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

The lack of red triangles over the heads of targets confuses people (hard to focus fire and/or call targets and/or shoot weakened sections).

What confuses them more is thinking that NARC would "counter" a mech under the cloak, instead of NARCing the mech that is GIVING said cloak to everyone. Just had that happen last match (solo) with someone that wasn't aware of that fact.

The only thing that ECM does exceptionally well (and arguably crazy) is to allow groups to be walking indignantly out in the open.

Clearly, walking out in the open should always be "safe from the opfor"™.


I still think NARC beacons should lay out a 100meter anti-ECM bubble. Then I'd be okay with ECM as it exists in the game, even if it is completely stupid that our electronics warfare is 100% backward from the way it should work.

#107 DocBach

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 03:25 PM

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 27 July 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:


If it were so, I don't understand why rules say "Ecm suite generate a bubble" if it covers only the mech carrying it.
When I played bt, we used angel to cover friend units; otherwise what does the bubble serve for?


The Angel ECM (which is not in this game, and if it was would require more tonnage than the Guardian ECM), serves to block Artemis IV and V, Beagle, Bloodhound, Narc, iNarc, other advanced electronics as listed in the rules etc, etc.... not standard sensors. Again, in Battletech, ECM does not serve to defeat standard sensors; in fact, the fluff states that years of ECM being present has allowed standard sensors to be insulated and protected against ECM. Null Signature systems and Stealth Armor are required to provide a 'Mech with the sensor defeating capabilities we see Guardian enjoying in MWO. Neither of these systems shield friendly units from radar detection like the ECM in MWO does, and both have significant critical slot and heat generation penalties.

The amount of effect a passive system like Guardian ECM has for 2 criticals and 1.5 tons is absurdly out of whack in the grand scheme of things. Just one can shut down literally hundreds of tons of equipment.

Again, I think a major reason why ECM is so potent in this game is the fact that we don't have a dedicated C3 system and they are treating the fact we can share targeting. They could get rid of the whole sensor stealth field thing by changing ECM to just block locks obtained by 'Mechs inside or on the opposite side of an enemy ECM bubble, or they could add C3 in the game as an actual item which would do something similar to Clan targeting computers and provide speed (thus accuracy) bonuses to 'Mechs in a C3 network dependent and scaled to the proximity of the closest spotter -- one of the largest benefits of traditional ECM in Battletech is to defeat C3 networks. Perhaps if C3 networking were actually implemented in the game and ECM could serve a purpose to counter it, the other effects we see ECM enjoying currently could be scaled back a bit.

#108 Strum Wealh

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 03:36 PM

View PostLivewyr, on 27 July 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

I looked at the max rules as well, arguing this with another player. (Name escapes me at the moment)

Guardian, nor Angel ECM effects IR scanners (Table of modifiers says exactly: NA) which it seems is the system MWO uses. (LoS only at around 800m or less without augmentation.

That was myself, during the discussion wherein I attempted to describe the difference in effectiveness between a human-operated thermographic camera (one type of IR sensor, and one that would not be affected by Guardian & its descendants as described in its background material) and a missile's infrared seeker (which would be affected by the IRCM components of Guardian & its descendants) vs the ECM suites.

"The modulated radiation from the IRCM generates a false tracking command in the seeker tracking logic. The effectiveness of the IRCM is determined by the ratio of jamming intensity to the target (or signal) intensity. This ratio is usually called the J/S ratio. Another important factor is the modulation frequencies which should be close to the actual missile frequencies. For spin scan missiles the required J/S is quite low but for newer missiles the required J/S is quite high requiring a directional source of radiation."

"DIRCM, or Directional Infrared Countermeasures, avoid this potential drawback by mounting the energy source on a movable turret (much like a FLIR turret). They only operate when cued by a missile warning system of a missile launch, and use the missile plume to accurately aim at the missile seeker. The modulated signal can then be directed at the seeker, and the modulation scheme can be cycled to try to defeat a variety of seekers."

In fact, Northrop Grumman manufactures an IRCM system called "Guardian", that "provides 360° protection against a wide range of missile threats. When Guardian detects a MANPADS launch, it tracks the incoming missile, then uses a laser beam to jam the missile's guidance system, causing it to miss the target aircraft. The entire process occurs in approximately two to five seconds and requires no action on the part of the aircraft crew."
Likewise, Northrop's AN/AAQ-24(V) DIRCM system does many of the same things - "Simultaneously tracks and defeats threats in clutter environments", "Counters all fielded IR missile threats using a single generic jam waveform", and "(provides) Fast, accurate threat detection and simultaneous jamming in all current IR threat Bands (I, II and IV)".

Contrast the operation of the DIRCM systems with the operation of Guardian described on page 103 of Era Report:2750:
"The Guardian ECM used sensitive EM sensors scattered across the operating unit’s exterior. These sensors registered any sort of electromagnetic wave produced by incoming missile systems and radar at a range of almost 200 meters. The Guardian’s dedicated countermeasures computer would then identify and adapt to the device and signal input, before 'firing' a focused EM pulse toward the hostile scanner. The end result was an overwhelming burst of noise that either confused and misdirected the enemy sensor’s computers, or forced their entire targeting system to reboot entirely."

Additionally, laser jammers (which would also be directional) would be another component of the BT Guardian system, and would assist agaainst systems that utilize IR lasers (which tend to operate in the 700nm to 1540nm wavelength range) and/or UV lasers (which tend to operate in the 230nm to 370nm wavelength range) as part of their guidance system; both Artemis FCSs & Streak launchers make use of IR lasers in this manner.

That is essentially what Guardian (and its descendants) do in BT canon - it cannot stop a 'Mech (which may also be using some form of IRST system, in addition to (or in place of) a simple thermographic camera) from being able to detect "something big & hot" and determine that it is probably another 'Mech, but it would (generally) foil a computerized IR-based missile guidance systems - most mundane or Artemis-enhanced LRMs & SRMs (which employ an IR laser as part of the guidance system) could lose tracking (and would either fall back on radar guidance (which could also be jammed by Guardian), or act as unguided/dumb-fire weapons), and Streak systems (which also employ an IR laser as part of the guidance system) could find themselves unable to achieve a lock (and thus, in fulfilling their ammo-conservation function, not fire).

#109 Bartholomew bartholomew

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 03:54 PM

That post gave me an interesting twist on ECM. Sure you could get a lock, but missles would lose guidance at about 250-300M and run as dumb fired. So ECM wouldn't stop a launch. but if you are moving, no worries about a hit unless you get unlucky in your path direction.

#110 Livewyr

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 04:28 PM

All of that is very nice, Strum.. but it is expressly stated that neither of the ECM suites effect IR sensors. (N/A)

The rule book does not distinguish between a human observed IR sensor or a computer managed IR sensor system. I believe I explained then as well, that given PGI's LoS requirement of direct targeting, (effectively removing Mech Radar and the actual reason for Active Probe before it makes it to discussion), we can surmise that targeting in MWO is done by IR. (Which, again, falls in line with the stated capabilities of IR sensors being about 800 meters or so.)

In short, True Guardian ECM prevents the non-LoS detection such as we had in MW4, but it does nothing to MWO's detection setup.

Stealth Armor, however, which uses heat baffles to mask IR signature *would* prevent IR detection and would do the stealth aspect of what MWO ECM does. (Although it would pay a heft price in tonnage and heat.)

#111 Deathlike

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 04:35 PM

View PostPrezimonto, on 27 July 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

I still think NARC beacons should lay out a 100meter anti-ECM bubble. Then I'd be okay with ECM as it exists in the game, even if it is completely stupid that our electronics warfare is 100% backward from the way it should work.


I had suggested something like that, but you know... Paul.

I didn't mind the idea that someone proposed that ECM scrambled their teammates sensors (within the cloak/jamming range) when enabled. It would be an interesting tradeoff (like, you can't lurm in a D-DC or teammates near it). That would actually be a DOWNSIDE.

Then again, it wouldn't affect high level play in the same way (LRMs are not the basis there anyways), but it wouldn't be the "jesus box" that it currently is. While it would still be used mostly in the same way, it would actually affect "lower level" to "casual/average play" to a degree.

#112 Mcgral18

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 04:38 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 27 July 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:


I had suggested something like that, but you know... Paul.

I didn't mind the idea that someone proposed that ECM scrambled their teammates sensors (within the cloak/jamming range) when enabled. It would be an interesting tradeoff (like, you can't lurm in a D-DC or teammates near it). That would actually be a DOWNSIDE.

Then again, it wouldn't affect high level play in the same way (LRMs are not the basis there anyways), but it wouldn't be the "jesus box" that it currently is. While it would still be used mostly in the same way, it would actually affect "lower level" to "casual/average play" to a degree.


The outrage might even cause the basis of ECM to be changed!

Perhaps it can even become gECM instead of Magic Jesus Box.

#113 Deathlike

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 04:43 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 27 July 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

The outrage might even cause the basis of ECM to be changed!

Perhaps it can even become gECM instead of Magic Jesus Box.


Think of the idea that ONLY WAY that you can spot the enemy is with a visual cue... or you must disable your own ECM to properly use TAG to spot. It actually WORKS both ways... instead of the one-way window it currently functions.

#114 Lykaon

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 04:46 PM

View Postsneeking, on 27 July 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

it aint click and forget, unless match maker unbalance has seen fit not to put at least one ecm on the other team then I am in there right up front switching ecm mode to joust that mofo for cecm at same time as blocking lrm from the spammers while doing so I will try to surface long enough to tag laser and fling an lrm5 burn some mL and stream some srm4 out of my 3L's nark port.

you will fail to convince me ecm is broken and unskilled

the fault is with match maker if ecm isn't fairly distributed to each team, if each team has at least one then the fault is with the pilot.

im sorry for my opinion but you won't change it with any argument.



Perhaps the counter argument hasn't been the correct one.

My argument is the ECM feature is a bad mechanic.The current ECM mechanics have caused a number of side effect issues that are in general unhealthy for the game's future.

Firstly: MWo already has a very steep learning curve that makes it difficult for many players to ease into playing.Generaly speaking only players with some patience and resolve stick it through.Learning the "rules" is hard enough for a new player but then we toss in some ECM and many of the basic rules the new guy just learned are out the window and the new guy is left with a total WTF happened experience.The new player's LRMs won't lock...WTF I can't get sensor locks on the enemy ...WTF Why did my NARC stop working...WTF...you get my point.

Next we have the problem with poor choices made for the release schedual of other features that tie directly to ECM.
ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) as it pertains to Battletech and MWo is a purpose built device to prevent the functioning of support electronics on the battle field.

At the time ECM was under development for MWo we had yet to see fully realized support electronics.We had no Artemis a BAP that was pretty much useless for the tonnage and most of the BAP's functions were distributed to sensor enhancement modules anyhow so..doubly useless BAP. No one bothered with the original NARC system it was terrible and TAG was only seen with any amount of frequency in premades with an LRM theme and command consoles were door stops until very recently.

To put it simply the purpose of ECM was not present when ECM was being developed.As such ECM was given functions that were well beyond the scope of what was needed to fill the role ECM was designed for.There was no need to deploy a counter measure for support electronics because we had no real deployment of those items.

The resulting development cycle for information warfare and support electronics became reversed.All the devices ECM was suppose to be a countermeasure for became counter measures for ECM.As a result all the support electronics that should have wide reaching impacts on information warfare and enhancements to combat effectivness were only developed as far as being a counter ECM feature.

Third: As a result of the mad scramble to make ECM's square peg fit into MWo's round hole we ended up with some pretty weird effects that are counter intuative and still even today most of the players can't concieve of how these inter relations effect the game as a whole.

An ECM is counterd by a BAP but only if that BAP is not also mounted on a mech with ECM if this occurs then ECM counters ECM and BAP is pretty much 1.5 tons of ballast. Why? just because ! it was the wholey artificial arbitrary solution to counter counter measures that resulted from BAP being altered to suit the ECM feature.

Inner Sphere Streaks have a 270m max range except when effected by ECM they have no range because ECM magicaly turns Streak launchers into dead weight.But,you can plug in a BAP and counter the ECM and everything is now fine.

Wrong.

ECM still effects the streaks in an adverse way even when "countered" with a BAP.The ECM will prevent any streaks locking on anything within 180m of the ECM unless that ECM is within 150m of the BAP.

So say you are trying to attack a mech 200m away (inside streak range yet outside BAP counter range) and that mech is 100m from a friendly ECM that is opposite the attacking streak launchers.The BAP would need in excess of a 300m counter range to allow the streaks to effect a lock.

So streaks + BAP = useless streaks in this scenario.The player has "paid" the ECM tax by equiping a BAP yet ECM is still "winning"

Or,this example.

Streak + BAP equiped mech is attacking a mech with ECM on board.

I.S. streak range is 270m hostile ECM is 180m BAP counter ECM range is 150m.Doing the math on this example is easy.Even with a BAP installed the ECM has the effect of reducing the streaks max range from 270m down to 150m.The ECM equiped mech is home free if they can get 151m away it doesn't matter if the streaks have a 270m range it's the BAP that is dictating the range because of ECM.

But it gets even weirder.If the ECM equped mech gets to 181m but under 201m the streaks can still lock on because the ECM only prevents detection of a mech by reducing enemy sensor detection ranges by 75%.

The end results are the normal streak range of 0-270m become 0-150m in range 151-200m no locks 201-270 in range.Kinda stupidly convoluted if you ask me.

Sensor range and sensor enhancing modules are another interesting interrelation when exposed to ECM.

Default sensor range on a mech is 800m
Advanced sensor range module adds 25% for a total rang of 800+25%= 1000m or 1 kilometer.

ECM reduces sensor detection range by 75%
ECM effected standard sensors = 200m detection range
ECM effected advanced sensors = 220m detection range.

So let's look at what this means.

ECM+ unaugmented sensors uneffected by ECM = 800m detection range while an opponent attempting to detect this ECM covered mech with advanced sensors has a 220m detection range.

In compareson the ECM grants the best detection ranges rather than the purpose built advanced sensor range module.ECM negates any advantage granted by the module since the detection range differences are 580m in favor of the ECM over the advanced sensors.

NEXT!

LRMs anyone? ask yourself how can we balance LRMs if there is always the random factor of how many if any ECMs are available to each team along with how many if any LRMs are available to each team then look at what map what Elo range what mechs in use Inner Sphere or Clan tech LRMs how much AMS per team is it the solo queue or group queue....No other weapon system has this many outlaying factors determining how effective the weapon system is.

Ultimatley ECM has done more to obfuscate useful data collection than it has helped balance LRM features.


Next..

ECM has a disproportionate effect on puggies as opposed to effects for teams using comms.Any feature that has differing effects based on team format is probably poorly designed.

If a puggie sees an ECM mech moving in a particular direction they need to type all the intel like mech type,location and heading.Typing kitfox in B3 heading B4 takes more time and attention than simply saying it.

In the solo queue ECM is super potent with groups the ECM is a powerful tool that needs to be used correctly.You can DERP around in the solo queue with an ECM mech and still significantly contribute to a victory simply because you showed up.Because of this I feel ECM is a poorly designed feature as it stands now.


So,as you can see my argument isn't ECM is OP! NERF NERF NERF
It is based on use of the feature reflection on it's function and realization that it's clumbsy counter intuative and lacks quality of design compared to other areas of the game.

We stand to gain a great deal of depth if ECM was properly designed with a interlated information warfare mechanic that reinforces role warfare and enhances aspects of mech and community warfare.

Edited by Lykaon, 27 July 2014 - 04:48 PM.


#115 100 Tonne

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 05:43 PM

View PostLykaon, on 27 July 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:



Perhaps the counter argument hasn't been the correct one.

My argument is the ECM feature is a bad mechanic.The current ECM mechanics have caused a number of side effect issues that are in general unhealthy for the game's future.

Firstly: MWo already has a very steep learning curve that makes it difficult for many players to ease into playing.Generaly speaking only players with some patience and resolve stick it through.Learning the "rules" is hard enough for a new player but then we toss in some ECM and many of the basic rules the new guy just learned are out the window and the new guy is left with a total WTF happened experience.The new player's LRMs won't lock...WTF I can't get sensor locks on the enemy ...WTF Why did my NARC stop working...WTF...you get my point.

Next we have the problem with poor choices made for the release schedual of other features that tie directly to ECM.
ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) as it pertains to Battletech and MWo is a purpose built device to prevent the functioning of support electronics on the battle field.

At the time ECM was under development for MWo we had yet to see fully realized support electronics.We had no Artemis a BAP that was pretty much useless for the tonnage and most of the BAP's functions were distributed to sensor enhancement modules anyhow so..doubly useless BAP. No one bothered with the original NARC system it was terrible and TAG was only seen with any amount of frequency in premades with an LRM theme and command consoles were door stops until very recently.

To put it simply the purpose of ECM was not present when ECM was being developed.As such ECM was given functions that were well beyond the scope of what was needed to fill the role ECM was designed for.There was no need to deploy a counter measure for support electronics because we had no real deployment of those items.

The resulting development cycle for information warfare and support electronics became reversed.All the devices ECM was suppose to be a countermeasure for became counter measures for ECM.As a result all the support electronics that should have wide reaching impacts on information warfare and enhancements to combat effectivness were only developed as far as being a counter ECM feature.

Third: As a result of the mad scramble to make ECM's square peg fit into MWo's round hole we ended up with some pretty weird effects that are counter intuative and still even today most of the players can't concieve of how these inter relations effect the game as a whole.

An ECM is counterd by a BAP but only if that BAP is not also mounted on a mech with ECM if this occurs then ECM counters ECM and BAP is pretty much 1.5 tons of ballast. Why? just because ! it was the wholey artificial arbitrary solution to counter counter measures that resulted from BAP being altered to suit the ECM feature.

Inner Sphere Streaks have a 270m max range except when effected by ECM they have no range because ECM magicaly turns Streak launchers into dead weight.But,you can plug in a BAP and counter the ECM and everything is now fine.

Wrong.

ECM still effects the streaks in an adverse way even when "countered" with a BAP.The ECM will prevent any streaks locking on anything within 180m of the ECM unless that ECM is within 150m of the BAP.

So say you are trying to attack a mech 200m away (inside streak range yet outside BAP counter range) and that mech is 100m from a friendly ECM that is opposite the attacking streak launchers.The BAP would need in excess of a 300m counter range to allow the streaks to effect a lock.

So streaks + BAP = useless streaks in this scenario.The player has "paid" the ECM tax by equiping a BAP yet ECM is still "winning"

Or,this example.

Streak + BAP equiped mech is attacking a mech with ECM on board.

I.S. streak range is 270m hostile ECM is 180m BAP counter ECM range is 150m.Doing the math on this example is easy.Even with a BAP installed the ECM has the effect of reducing the streaks max range from 270m down to 150m.The ECM equiped mech is home free if they can get 151m away it doesn't matter if the streaks have a 270m range it's the BAP that is dictating the range because of ECM.

But it gets even weirder.If the ECM equped mech gets to 181m but under 201m the streaks can still lock on because the ECM only prevents detection of a mech by reducing enemy sensor detection ranges by 75%.

The end results are the normal streak range of 0-270m become 0-150m in range 151-200m no locks 201-270 in range.Kinda stupidly convoluted if you ask me.

Sensor range and sensor enhancing modules are another interesting interrelation when exposed to ECM.

Default sensor range on a mech is 800m
Advanced sensor range module adds 25% for a total rang of 800+25%= 1000m or 1 kilometer.

ECM reduces sensor detection range by 75%
ECM effected standard sensors = 200m detection range
ECM effected advanced sensors = 220m detection range.

So let's look at what this means.

ECM+ unaugmented sensors uneffected by ECM = 800m detection range while an opponent attempting to detect this ECM covered mech with advanced sensors has a 220m detection range.

In compareson the ECM grants the best detection ranges rather than the purpose built advanced sensor range module.ECM negates any advantage granted by the module since the detection range differences are 580m in favor of the ECM over the advanced sensors.

NEXT!

LRMs anyone? ask yourself how can we balance LRMs if there is always the random factor of how many if any ECMs are available to each team along with how many if any LRMs are available to each team then look at what map what Elo range what mechs in use Inner Sphere or Clan tech LRMs how much AMS per team is it the solo queue or group queue....No other weapon system has this many outlaying factors determining how effective the weapon system is.

Ultimatley ECM has done more to obfuscate useful data collection than it has helped balance LRM features.


Next..

ECM has a disproportionate effect on puggies as opposed to effects for teams using comms.Any feature that has differing effects based on team format is probably poorly designed.

If a puggie sees an ECM mech moving in a particular direction they need to type all the intel like mech type,location and heading.Typing kitfox in B3 heading B4 takes more time and attention than simply saying it.

In the solo queue ECM is super potent with groups the ECM is a powerful tool that needs to be used correctly.You can DERP around in the solo queue with an ECM mech and still significantly contribute to a victory simply because you showed up.Because of this I feel ECM is a poorly designed feature as it stands now.


So,as you can see my argument isn't ECM is OP! NERF NERF NERF
It is based on use of the feature reflection on it's function and realization that it's clumbsy counter intuative and lacks quality of design compared to other areas of the game.

We stand to gain a great deal of depth if ECM was properly designed with a interlated information warfare mechanic that reinforces role warfare and enhances aspects of mech and community warfare.


can I also add to this excellent post...
that if you are outside the 180 meters of the ECM, that you can not get information on the weapons loadout of mech or any near by enemy mechs nor what damage that have or dont have.

But wait there is more! you get all of the above for...............

1 ton. with no downside.

It is time the PGI rethink what ECM does.

#116 El Bandito

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 05:46 PM

View PostNaduk, on 27 July 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

who's fault is it that your driving an LRM boat ? you clearly knew ECM was in the game before you clicked launch it was not a surprise you have NO right to come in here and sook about it, but running a boat your gimping your self and its nobodys problem but your own its the same as someone with 4x PPC crying that Tera therma is to hot if you had a PPC to work along side your LRM's you would of had little issue my Griffons are LRM "boats" and they all carry a TAG and ERppc


You wouldn't know even if I explain. Just read the comments above.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 July 2014 - 05:57 PM.


#117 Strum Wealh

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 05:56 PM

View PostLivewyr, on 27 July 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

All of that is very nice, Strum.. but it is expressly stated that neither of the ECM suites effect IR sensors. (N/A)

The rule book does not distinguish between a human observed IR sensor or a computer managed IR sensor system. I believe I explained then as well, that given PGI's LoS requirement of direct targeting, (effectively removing Mech Radar and the actual reason for Active Probe before it makes it to discussion), we can surmise that targeting in MWO is done by IR. (Which, again, falls in line with the stated capabilities of IR sensors being about 800 meters or so.)

In short, True Guardian ECM prevents the non-LoS detection such as we had in MW4, but it does nothing to MWO's detection setup.

Stealth Armor, however, which uses heat baffles to mask IR signature *would* prevent IR detection and would do the stealth aspect of what MWO ECM does. (Although it would pay a heft price in tonnage and heat.)

MWO's primary targeting & tracking system rather clearly meant to represent radar & lidar (which are, outside of very specific applications of the former, LOS detection systems).
BT Mech Radar has a range of 720 meters (24 hexes), while BT 'Mech IR/Magscan both have a range of 900 meters (30 hexes) and BT Beagle has a range of 1080 meters; the 800-meter (unaugmented radar) & 1000-meter (Beagle/CAP) ranges in MWO are basically the result of rounding & artefacts of previous MW titles.

Additionally, BT's primary targeting & tracking system is also rather clearly meant to represent radar/lidar, and is labeled separately (as "'Mech sensor") from Seismic/IR/Magscan sensors.
(And as a sidenote to DocBach, Guardian actually imparts a +5 penalty to a Sensor Check against "'Mech sensors" (e.g. radar), a +4 penalty to a Sensor Check against Beagle & its Clan counterpart, and a +2 penalty to a Sensor Check against Bloodhound. So, yes, Guardian does affect standard sensors. ;)).

In BT's case, "Units that are not 'hot' cannot be detected by an IR sensor scan."
More specifically, there is an example given in TacOps:
  • "For example, a player is using a ’Mech IR sensor and rolls a 5, resulting in detection of any unit in that sensor’s medium range bracket (hexes 11–20)."
  • "However, a ’Mech with 15 points of heat (inflicting a –3 MP modifier) is at hex range 8, three hexes away from the medium range bracket. The infrared sensor spots the 'hot' unit."
  • "If the ’Mech only had 14 points of heat, or if it was at hex range 7 (four hexes away from the medium range bracket), it would have remained undetected."
  • "Units that are not 'hot' cannot be detected by an IR sensor scan."
So, 'Mech IR sensors can completely fail to detect another 'Mech at 46% on its heat scale (14 of 30 heat points) at a distance of 240 meters (8 hexes), or a 'Mech at 50% on its heat scale (15 of 30 heat points) at a distance of 210 meters (7 hexes), even eithout the protection of any ECM or stealth system.
That is how "good" BT IR sensors are, as far as the BT gameplay rules - rather than the BT lore - is concerned. :P

Moreover, the BT descriptions of Heat Seeking Missiles (TacOps, pg. 369) indicate that they require very high levels of heat in order to be able to track any better than standard (radar-guided) missiles, and that they are easily fooled by either being at less than 5 units of heat or by standing next to or behind terrain that happens to be on fire.
  • "Against non-heat tracking units or units that have not overheated, Heat-Seeking Missiles receive a +1 to-hit modifier."
  • "Against heat-tracking units that have overheated, Heat-Seeking Missiles receive a to-hit modifier equal to the heat-induced MP modifier for the target."
  • "If a flight of Heat-Seeking Missiles is fired into or through a hex that has been set on fire, a +2 to-hit modifier applies to the attack as well."
Note that, "As a result, these missiles are noticeably less accurate against targets that are not radiating a significant amount of heat. For this reason - and the fact that they are easily confused by open fires, such as those set by flamers and Inferno rounds - heat-seeking missiles are far less common than standard missile munitions."
This indicates that standard missiles are not heat-seeking at all.

While ECM may not affect thermographic cameras (while likely burning out lesser IR sensors, like the older "reticle seeker" technology), BT thermographic sensors - as far as the gameplay rules, rather than the lore, are concerned - are demonstratably nigh-worthless against anything that isn't already risking an ammo explosion to begin with.
And as far as the lore - rather than the gameplay rules - is concerned, Guardian & its descendants do explicitly affect IR sensors (and UV sensors, and radar, and lidar, and sonar, and magscan).
:lol:

As far as MWO is concerned, the BT IR Sensor Check is modeled by MWO's implementation of heat vision; unless & until equippong an MWO ECM suite can make a MWO 'Mech invisible - or even just less-visible - to MWO heat vision than it would be in the same situation/conditions & without the ECM suite, advancing the claim that MWO ECM is mimicing either Stealth Armor or NullSig is simply a demonstration of one's ignorance. :lol:

#118 IraqiWalker

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 08:14 PM

View PostZolaz, on 27 July 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:


You can disagree with me if you want. Doesnt make it true, doesnt make it real. The team with ECM superiority is going to win more than a team without it. The team with LRM superiority is going to win more than a team without it. And, since you arent going to focus on this next sentence, let me just point this out again for emphasis. This is especially true when you solo queue drop. Solo queue isnt where the House of Lords are dropping. Solo queue isnt were you see a lot of red smoke. Solo queue isnt where you find tryhard builds and the meta.

I am just trying to help out those players who dont make 200 damage in their matches. If that is you, I am expressly talking to you ... get ECM and get LRMs. ECM/LRM mech is a combat multiplier, if you dont know what that is, go look it up. More than likely if you are disagreeing with me you are only focusing on a small part of my post. Listen to the guy who tells you it wont work, but you should verify for yourself.

My epeen is huge. I have 50 mechs. I have over 7k games played, been playing since closed beta. I have earned over 300 million c-bills. I have over 5k kills. I have had a KDR of 6. I have killed 7 enemies when it was only 8 mans. I am only sharing my stats in the hope that sub 200 damage players are listening because I want ya'll to do better. If PGI is going to put you on my team in solo queue carry your weight, so that I dont have to Carry Harder.

Posted Image

Good luck. If you see me in game and Im on your team I do notice if you dont do 200 damage.


1- Please don't make assumptions about your opposite's comprehension, or abilities.

2- Solo queue is where you see HoL players as well. These guys don't play group drops 24/7. Same with all of the other big teams. I ran into Adiuvo a couple of times in a solo drop. jagerXII in a group drop twice (cleaned my clock in the first, was on my team in the second.)

3- You definitely see try hard builds and meta builds in solo queue. Not as the outliers, but in fact in good enough numbers. They're not the ONLY builds you will see, though.

4- ECM and LRMs are force muiltipliers and can help improve your chances, however, they are not the powerful modifers you make them out to be.

5- Your advice may seem helpful, but it has a catastrophic outcome (for the "use ECM" part, especially). All these players that are having a hard time with the game right now, will feel like they improved and their numbers went up, when they've become fully dependent on the ECM bubble. Which causes them to not pay attention to cover as much, and actually end up developing bad habits.

I started the game playing the COM-2D, ended up relying heavily on the ECM and didn't realize the negative impact it had on my piloting skills until I started working on the Jenners, and had no ECM, and no idea where good cover was.

In the short term, these players that take this piece of advice from you might feel better about their scores, but they will just degrade their piloting skills, or at the very best, not improve it. It will foster some bad habits that will make the game seem like a living hell for them when they stop using ECM mechs.

Basically, more harm than good will come out of this. Other than that, I still disagree with your opinion that ECM is a game breaker.

#119 wanderer

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 09:12 PM

View PostZolaz, on 27 July 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Good luck. If you see me in game and Im on your team I do notice if you dont do 200 damage.


Your stats meaning nothing in a matchmaker that will throw newbies in with vets, simply because it wants an easy way to create losses. You will have under 200-damage players. You will not stop having them unless you're in a 12-man, and in fact, the better your non-12-man gets, the more the game will try to throw in a crosseyed gunner who can't walk straight at 32kph to compensate to drag your average ELO down and get you some losses.

There will, in fact constantly be mouthbreathers outside of 12-mans, because the MM isn't actually sifting the wheat from the chaff. And in PUGs, it's a given. Newbies will be tossed into the mid-ELO grinder and stay there as long as they keep being used to leaven the pro-bread on teams the MM predicts will lose, thereby leaving them frozen in ELO hell.

But that has nothing to do with ECM. Back to the subject.

ECM should never be stopping weapons cold. It shouldn't be rendering 'Mechs invisible or immune to lockons from 500m away. It should be negating boosters of all kinds- Artemis,targeting computers, etc. that target anything in the bubble.

#120 Wolfways

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 04:14 AM

View PostZolaz, on 26 July 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

Solo queue being so truly PUGish with a lot of squirrel chasing and bad communications multiple layers of ECM is awesome. Put on some LRMs if you can and rake in the c-bills.

That's not solo queue. It's low ELO.





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