1258 replies to this topic

[Sug]

**** I'd rather the ppc did all splash damage than go that slow.

[Void Angel]

Hmm. My initial thought is: "Don't chop the projectile speed for the PPC!" With the projectile speed cut down to roughly that of an AC/20 (for the PPC) the range advantage of the weapon risks being made moot. You'll effectively have a high-heat AC/10 that doesn't use ammo. It's an interesting proposal, but the PPC's speed is already 25% less than the Gauss Rifle's; how much more can a long-range weapon be slowed down before you run into the same problem as pre-buff LRMS? I'm put in mind of the Mechwarrior2 PPC's slow-moving ball of witch lighting - a powerful close-combat weapon that was usable at long range only due to the predictability of the AI.

The (almost) implemented solution, on the other hand, seems better. As I'm sure you've considered, it is dangerous to implement complex systems into a game already criticized for it's steep learning curve. However, this will allow the meta to move beyond it's current rut of PPC/Punch weapon combinations - and that's a good thing.

Edit: now that I think about it, I've sometimes toyed with the idea of increasing the charge time on the PPC. The downside of that solution is that you still have that huge alpha strike whenever the PPCs come up; the upside is that you can't use that alpha strike so dang much, and you're really hurting once they get to brawling range with you. Currently, enemies can do so much damage (even if you mitigate it to different components) to an approaching 'Mech that they'll win the sniper war and the brawl if you push them. It's not a sure thing, and if you can use good enough cover and remain undetected, you'll do well - but the problem isn't just the power of pinpoint damage, it's also that long-range weapon combos are behaving like all-range powerhouses compared to their short-range alternatives.

Edited by Void Angel, 29 July 2014 - 11:28 PM.

[Marj]

Homeless Bill, on 29 July 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Bottom line: the weapon lock mechanic is awkward, and there's no way to make it not awkward. And the alternative of changing PPC speed will just make it synergize with higher-calibre autocannons better, so people will switch to that. Sure, it negates the range, but the problem is still ultimately 30+ pinpoint damage to a single location.

I'm begging you to consider something like this. A hurricane of bandaids has done half of what a serious effort to tackle front-loaded damage could do, and you'd have the added benefit of having another way to balance over/under-performing variants.

You could argue that it's complicated, but how is it any more so than the combination of this arbitrary mechanic, Ghost Heat, the Gauss charge, and all the other jumpjet and PPC adjustments it's taken to get even this close? Please go comprehensive and get this over with.

What Homeless Bill said. I don't like either of the solutions Paul presented as they create more problems. I also don't want to see any major changes to convergence as I think this would have significant unintended side effects such as reducing the time available to torso twist between shots (making the game simpler). Using energy as a limiting factor is easy to understand, can be clearly shown in the UI and has the scope to be expanded, e.g. turn rate penalties if too many weapons are fired to make brawling more difficult without compromising the ability to snipe effectively. Paul's proposal would require snipers to expose themselves for more time to fire all their weapons which means they're going to take more fire from multiple mechs when they're spotted. It compromises the ability of snipers to snipe but does nothing to reduce their ability to brawl where they're continuously exposed to fire anyway.

Currently sniping builds are dominant because they're good at long range (obviously) but they're also reasonable brawlers. A dedicated brawler that closes on a sniper undamaged should be devastating to make up for the short range, but they're not. Having a mechanic that makes snipers good at long range but weak at short range is needed and energy may be a way to accomplish this.

[charov]

Happy to see some tuning here, but this system is way too complicated. Just slow down PPCs between 700 and 850 m/s and let's see what happens.

[Void Angel]

Autocannons, ER Large Lasers, and LRMs will become the only viable long-range weapons in the game.

[Ander Skye]

The entire approach to these weapons makes no sense from the beginning.

They are meant to be high power, long range weapons, not for continuous fire at any range. Just give 8 s reload time to PPCs, 10 to Gauss Rifles, and they are back to being sniper weapons as they should be rather than the solution to all evils.

No need for Ghost Heat, nerfing projectile speeds, and all that stuff.

Oh, and please, please: introduce a small angular error for weapons when the mech is moving... Even modern tanks, which do not walk, fire with less precision when moving. This pinpoint stuff when running and jumping is ludicrous.

Edited by Ander Skye, 29 July 2014 - 11:33 PM.

[Tahribator]

Aresye, on 29 July 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:

Nope. In fact the competitive community is already latching onto a couple new meta builds in lieu of the recent JJ changes.

I can see the threads calling for nerfs already, because that's exactly what people do here. They whine about anything that prevents them from stomping their opponents every game. The devs cave in to all the whining (usually ruining whole mechs and weapon systems in the process), the pros find something else, and the players whine again.

Of course they will, but whatever they come up with, it won't be as effective.

[Blue Shadow]

I don't mind the first idea but it's too complex, keep it simple: Gauss and PPC can't be fiered together at all, with a 1 second lockout.

OR change the way Gauss charges up: Pressing the fire button will charge the Gauss it will remain charged untill pressing the fire button again to shoot a projectile, the weapon will then cool down (as normal). No other heavy weapon (PPCs AC/20s) can be fiered whilst the Gauss is charged or in cool down.

[Adiuvo]

Tahribator, on 29 July 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

Of course they will, but whatever they come up with, it won't be as effective.

The things being used today are already more effective than PPC/Gauss in specific situations. PPC/Gauss is now a situational weapon loadout due to the JJ changes, and is no longer the boogeyman that it once was.

Please don't try and derail legitimate concerns that people have brought up regarding this change because you don't like competitive play. Address the points people make rather than poisoning the well.

[John80sk]

Bad changes are bad. Why do they continue to pay Paul?

Pinpoint meta will continue, the weapons will just shift, and the total chassis capable of the meta will be shrunk even further.

Given PGI's track record of listening to feedback, I expect our new dual gauss 3D overlords to be arriving shortly. If the PPC speed doesn't get nerfed then I suppose not much will change other than most clan mechs will be unable to poptart as effectively.

[Mylardis]

Marj, on 29 July 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

What Homeless Bill said. I don't like either of the solutions Paul presented as they create more problems. I also don't want to see any major changes to convergence as I think this would have significant unintended side effects such as reducing the time available to torso twist between shots (making the game simpler). Using energy as a limiting factor is easy to understand, can be clearly shown in the UI and has the scope to be expanded, e.g. turn rate penalties if too many weapons are fired to make brawling more difficult without compromising the ability to snipe effectively. Paul's proposal would require snipers to expose themselves for more time to fire all their weapons which means they're going to take more fire from multiple mechs when they're spotted. It compromises the ability of snipers to snipe but does nothing to reduce their ability to brawl where they're continuously exposed to fire anyway.

Currently sniping builds are dominant because they're good at long range (obviously) but they're also reasonable brawlers. A dedicated brawler that closes on a sniper undamaged should be devastating to make up for the short range, but they're not. Having a mechanic that makes snipers good at long range but weak at short range is needed and energy may be a way to accomplish this.

I agree with this.

Suggestion 1 sounds far too complicated. Suggestion 2 should be tried on the PT-Server.

If I could choose, I'd prefer the often suggested combination of heat and energy - lower heat cap with higher dissapation, combined with energy as limiting second ressource.

Those two can be easily explained, can be visualized and would put more simulation in the game without killing the "skill" aspect of aiming.

[Wintersdark]

Void Angel, on 29 July 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

Autocannons, ER Large Lasers, and LRMs will become the only viable long-range weapons in the game.

+Gauss.

You say this like there's lots of other long range weapons that are viable now - this is basically just making PPC's a mid-range weapon, usable to long range with care.

[SgtKinCaiD]

If i had the choice, i would do these instead :

• increase the PPC cooldown by 2-3 sec (aka make every shot count). Maybe reduce pinpoint dmg and add spread dmg instead (3/4 pinpoint, 1/4 spread)
  
• buff heavily large pulse laser => 12 dmg, 0.5s beam duration
  
• buff srm by bringing them back to 2.5 dmg/m
  
• slightly buff medium laser => heat back to 3

With these, a sniper will still be king at long range, but if someone manage to get up close to his face, he will be screwed.

If i must choose between Paul's two options : i'd rather have the first one, even if it's over complicated. At long range, a pcc is not so hard to dodge just by staggering your speed.

[HadleyHope]

Homeless Bill, on 29 July 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Bottom line: the weapon lock mechanic is awkward, and there's no way to make it not awkward. And the alternative of changing PPC speed will just make it synergize with higher-calibre autocannons better, so people will switch to that. Sure, it negates the range, but the problem is still ultimately 30+ pinpoint damage to a single location.

I'm begging you to consider something like this. A hurricane of bandaids has done half of what a serious effort to tackle front-loaded damage could do, and you'd have the added benefit of having another way to balance over/under-performing variants.

If you're going to go with weapon lock, at least combine it with that sort of scale so that all weapons can be balanced accordingly. One-off mechanics like what's being proposed are really awkward.

You could argue that it's complicated, but how is it any more so than the combination of this arbitrary mechanic, Ghost Heat, the Gauss charge, and all the other jumpjet and PPC adjustments it's taken to get even this close? Please go comprehensive and get this over with.

If you have to option 1 is the better, but as others have asked, please consider this idea. It makes perfect sense that a mech's engine can only produce a finite amount of power, and that all weapons should have some kind of energy draw.

[Onmyoudo]

I feel that Paul's post was just a constant stream of "WTF". Please, please stop with these ridiculously overwrought changes and just fix issues properly! Homeless Bill's is not the only idea of how to handle this and there have been many in-depth discussions about it over the last two years and especially since ghost heat - there must be another way than what PGI has proposed here.

[monk]

I don't like the first, but the second will probably just change the meta as has been discussed. Here are a few weird ideas that probably break lore and or are just crazy, but this is what happens when my sleeping pills kick in.

What if a PPC acts like a particle accelerator in Ghost Busters. You lock it on and then fire, sort of like you do with SSRMs. When you fire you get an super quick ramp up and a "thwack" of jolting energy applied in a .25 second front loaded damage. Following that quick zap, the PPC becomes a a DOT weapon if you continue to hold down the fire button. The downside to the continued DOT is that you start to generate heat fairly quickly after that first FLD (I'm imagining FLD of like 5 damage, but then something reasonable, akin to the flamer's .7dps and 1heat per second that goes up a bit) . The beam "locks" onto the target, allowing it to arc and curve a bit to track the target. The longer you hold the fire button down, the greater the heat that you generate to yourself, but you continue to trickle damage the enemy as well (akin to how flamers were a few months back, but with an exponentially growing heat generation). If you ever lose your lock (akin to how ssrms work, but probably with a more stringent cone you need to maintain) the PPC automatically shuts off and requires a new lock. Sarna also talks about how there are potential effects from multiple such as affecting targeting computers and other things. I think it would be great to have an initial "fuzz" effect to the cockpit of the target that fades, but then starts to cause tiny fuzzy moments to the view screen of the victim as the beam is held on them. Basically little "bzzt, briiizt" zappy effects and crazy components and electrical arcs in the cockpit. Nothing insane, but enough to annoy the target on the other end. As the target lock reaches the edge of breaking the beam could actually jump to nearby locations as it tries to maintain the lock. Anyone walking in front will take the damage until the lock breaks.

This would both eliminate the FL PPD and also require the PPC user to keep their mech facing the enemy, prohibiting them from easily popping off shots. It's also a new weapon mechanic that increases the types of gameplay damage we can do. It's different from lasers. It's different from Gauss. It's different from all ACs.

(edit - My chart got destroyed)

Name: PPC
Damage: 5#
Heat: 10
Cooldown: 4@
Range: 90-540
Max Range: 1080
Slots: 3
Tons: 7
Speed: 1500ms
Duration: ∞
DPS: (5 front loaded) +.7/s
HPS: (10 front loaded) +.7/s
Impulse: .4
Health: 10
Costs: 400,000

Name: ER PPC
Damage: 5#
Heat: 15
Cooldown: 5@
Range: 810
Max Range: 1620
Slots: 3
Tons: 7
Speed: 1500ms
Duration: ∞
DPS: (5 front loaded) +.7/s
HPS: (15 front loaded) +.7/s
Impulse: .4
Health: 10
Costs: 600,000

# - Continues to do .7 DPS so long as the target remains locked and the fire button is depressed
@ - Cooldown increases .1 seconds for each second the the beam is held on target up to a max of 6 and 7 seconds?
* - Initial impulse, no impulse during DOT

Yes. I'm bored. But honestly, I'd love to play with something like that in the mix. Haha.

Edited by monk, 30 July 2014 - 12:50 AM.

[El Death Smurf]

give the IS PPCs a little splash
1.5-7-1.5 seems fair.

1/2 the speed is beyond excessive. it's already hot and heavy, taking up most of the space in tonnage and heatsinks necessary to be viable outside of guerilla tactics.

[MechKyan]

I think PPC speeds need to be changed drastically.

Like this :

http://youtu.be/jVq1oGPIfO8?t=2m28s

[Lefteye Falconeer]

Slower PPC projectile, please. The game needs less pinpoint weaponry anyway. This is an interesting way to differentiate the PPC from ballistic weapons and create more gameplay diversity, along with a refreshing "dodgeable bullet" mechanic. Also, as a bonus, it kind of fits the old MW games lore.

In general, they should either put in Cone-of-Fire for some weapons, or some sort of recoil for some others. Pinpoint-frontload is THE problem.

Since they won't go there, I vote for slower PPC.

[Primetimex]

For all those of you who's saying PPC speed nerf is a good idea - all well and good for you on 100ms ping and below - but consider us who's on high 260 - 300ms ping - PPC is already difficult enough to use due to lag.

GGCLOSE