1258 replies to this topic

[Archon]

I really don't think what are supposed to be the most powerful weapons in the game / BT universe need yet ANOTHER nerf. PPCs definitely do NOT need their speed decreased any further. It has already been decreased. If forced to choose between these options I guess I would go with the 1 second delay to fire PPCs after firing Gauss.

[oldhasu]

**** you *************! You are again nerfing everything I payed fo in your ******* clanpack. Go **** yourself morons

[Isabelle]

Personally I'd prefer to see something like the following;

Remove Gauss charge mechanic - remove complicated mechanic,
Only 1 Gauss Rifle or PPC can be fired at a time, with a 0.5 second lockout (i.e. gauss/ppc can only be chain fired) - add less complicated mechanic,
Make IS AC's burst fire (perhaps smaller bursts than Clan ACs) - make it so you cant combo IS AC's with a single gauss/ppc into a PPFLD super-wep (which is the whole thing we're trying to avoid with the changes to ppc/gauss combo),

However if choosing between the two presented choices, I'd probably go with option 1. I don't really want to see the PPC velocity dropped that drastically as that would hurt PPC's viability as a long range weapon.

[Jacknife]

The issue is with the combination, Russ' mechanic mitigates the combined pinpoint hit, so I'm in favour of that. The slowing down of the speed of the PPC nerfs the ppc for those that only use PPCs without the gauss, IS ERPPC got nerf'd into the ground to the point you arely see them in game. Please use mechanics and not individual weapon nerfs!

[Ace Selin]

IraqiWalker, on 29 July 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

Have you never used a gun? They really do fire the bullet exactly where you aim. As long as you know how to aim.

Have you ever fired a gun? Because bullets dont always hit where you aim.
For long ranged shooting (done by rifles) you need to take into account what your zero is as well as the temperature, humidity, elevation / barometric pressure & wind resistance. For very distant targets even gravity is taken into account.
Different types of ammo can affect your trajectory as well.
For long distance targets often holdover is required - you dont shoot bang on the target as most rifles are not zerod in at say 800 yards.
(We wont discuss the targets motion).

[VaMPHuNT]

How about instead of a complex system like this.. you just reverse the changes you made to either weapon?

Apply the charge-up mechanic to the PPCs, put the Gauss back the way it used to be.

The longer the charge on the PPC, the more heat that's generated, the more damage the shot will deal, the faster it will travel (All to a maximum point, anyways. Click-and-hold charge mechanic, not press-and-wait)

[Wintersdark]

Ace Selin, on 29 July 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

Have you ever fired a gun? Because bullets dont always hit where you aim.
For long ranged shooting (done by rifles) you need to take into account what your zero is as well as the temperature, humidity, elevation / barometric pressure & wind resistance. For very distant targets even gravity is taken into account.
Different types of ammo can affect your trajectory as well.
For long distance targets often holdover is required - you dont shoot bang on the target as most rifles are not zerod in at say 800 yards.
(We wont discuss the targets motion).

Or shooter's motion.

It's not particularly difficult to learn to shoot from a nice, static position. Now do it at 100kph running over rough terrain while occassionally firing rockets strapped to your back to hurtle you over obstacles, being hit by cannon shells nearly as heavy as volkswagons and bathed in blinding sweat from the near-critical reactor in between your legs.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wintersdark, on 29 July 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Or shooter's motion.

It's not particularly difficult to learn to shoot from a nice, static position. Now do it at 100kph running over rough terrain while occassionally firing rockets strapped to your back to hurtle you over obstacles, being hit by cannon shells nearly as heavy as volkswagons and bathed in blinding sweat from the near-critical reactor in between your legs.

Right so lets just give PPCs and Gauss rifles streak mechanics. Lock on target and it hits random location. Yay! Balance achieved.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

please don't do either of the 2 changes... please just make the recycle timer longer... so they aren't quickly spammed.

[VXJaeger]

Logic by energy consumption. Although I would also transfer charge up from gauss to PPCs, and keep suggested simultaneously firing limitation.
Reason: there's still ill-logic solution why gauss explodes even if it's not gharged up.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 July 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

Right so lets just give PPCs and Gauss rifles streak mechanics. Lock on target and it hits random location. Yay! Balance achieved.

Where did I say that? That's just ridiculous. A really terrible straw man. Please, you can do better.

Reticule bloom, like practically every other shooter ever uses. Moving at, say, 50% speed? Low heat? Pin point accuracy.

Push your speed up beyond, say, [75%]? Reticule starts getting larger. Say up to a [5] degree spread at 100% speed vs. 0 degrees at [75%] speed.
Jumping? Another [5] degree spread.
Past 75% heat? Add spread due to excess heat in the same manner you do as per speed.
Etc.

Individually, each adds a small amount of spread, though if you combine several factors together you get a lot more.

No random streak mechanics, it's all skill based. You choose: Do you want to push your mech hard, run fast, jump, ride high heat? Or slow down a bit, cool a bit, to get a perfectly precise shot? You choose, and live with the consequences.

Edited by Wintersdark, 29 July 2014 - 10:29 PM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Instead of making it overcomplicated how about you just make it impossible to macro the charge up of the Gaussrifle and see who's still using it afterwards.

[Wintersdark]

The coding for which is already a part of CryEngine (It's in Crysis after all!)

Thorn Hallis, on 29 July 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

Instead of making it overcomplicated how about you just make it impossible to macro the charge up of the Gaussrifle and see who's still using it afterwards.

Practically nobody does because if you have two brain cells to rub together, letting go of one mouse button the same time you press the other isn't hard.

Seriously. Is it hard for you?

[Quizzical Coconut]

I really don't like either of the suggested changes; one is tacked on and the other will remove the practical viability of a weapon.


If PPFLD is such a problem, why not address it? Obviously a solution is needed if the suggestions in the OP are actually being considered.
Either decrease the damage of the PPFLD weapons (and adjust reload as compensation) or increase armor values to decrease the crippling nature of a single volley. I'd say 10 damage gauss rifles and 8 damage PPCs would be more tolerable (and more intuitive) than the proposed ideas.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wintersdark, on 29 July 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

Where did I say that? That's just ridiculous. A really terrible straw man. Please, you can do better.

Reticule bloom, like practically every other shooter ever uses. Moving at, say, 50% speed? Low heat? Pin point accuracy.

Push your speed up beyond, say, [75%]? Reticule starts getting larger. Say up to a [5] degree spread at 100% speed vs. 0 degrees at [75%] speed.
Jumping? Another [5] degree spread.
Past 75% heat? Add spread due to excess heat in the same manner you do as per speed.
Etc.

Individually, each adds a small amount of spread, though if you combine several factors together you get a lot more.

No random streak mechanics, it's all skill based. You choose: Do you want to push your mech hard, run fast, jump, ride high heat? Or slow down a bit, cool a bit, to get a perfectly precise shot? You choose, and live with the consequences.

Try telling a light pilot they have to slow down to shoot accurately.

And really it is more or less what people want. Everyone references TT and how you roll dice to determine where shots go and that's why the TT armor system works and pinpoint accuracy breaks the game and blah blah. Dice rolling is essentially streak mechanics, and what the TT armor system is designed for.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 29 July 2014 - 10:41 PM.

[MadPanda]

I shoot the 2ppc first then charge the gauss. So that change would have no effect on my playstyle? I don't like the complicated idea at all and I don't think its gonna work either. Slowing down the ppc, maybe, but I'd like to think there is a better idea. I don't have the better idea unfortunately, but you got people who are getting paid to think this stuff.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 July 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

Try telling a light pilot they have to slow down to shoot accurately.

Or shoot close - 5 degrees of spread (as an example) at 100% throttle is trivial up very close. They'd still be hitting what they want. And if they're packing PPC's or ERLL's? They can slow to 75% throttle to snipe with accuracy.

*shrugs*

Quote

And really it is more or less what people want. Everyone references TT and how you roll dice to determine where shots go and that's why the TT armor system works and pinpoint accuracy breaks the game and blah blah. Dice rolling is essentially streak mechanics, and what the TT armor system is designed for.

And it's what a reticule bloom system does, while still allowing people precision and no inexplicable wierdness. Having shots deviate (within an area shown by the spacing of your crosshairs, as happens in every shooter ever) while under stress (max speed running, jumping, etc) is easily and immediately understood by pretty much everyone. It's highly intuitive.

[meteorol]

I really don't like the idea of reducing the PPCs speed, atleast if you want to cut it in half.
You want to solve the PPC/Gauss issue. Cutting PPcs speed in half also massively affects guys who only use 1 or 2 PPCs and no gauss.

Of those two possibilites you mentioned i'd prefer the PPC/Gauss charge link, because it adresses 50pt Direwolfs (that's probably what it is aimed for) without nerfing other builds that don't even use a Gauss.

[Tahribator]

There's going to be a lot of resistance against this, since the "competitive" community has been built over the PPC/AC meta for far too long, but it's for the better. 2xPPC+Gauss is all that is left for the poptart meta and either solution will ensure that it's brought in line with other builds.

Heck, it might even encourage competitive community to check out the customization part of this game.

Edited by Tahribator, 29 July 2014 - 11:09 PM.

[Aresye]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 July 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

Try telling a light pilot they have to slow down to shoot accurately.

And really it is more or less what people want. Everyone references TT and how you roll dice to determine where shots go and that's why the TT armor system works and pinpoint accuracy breaks the game and blah blah. Dice rolling is essentially streak mechanics, and what the TT armor system is designed for.

Agreed

I think out of all the ideas, the "reticule bloom," or speed-based aiming penalties is the stupidest proposal. Yeah, let's make the entire skill of being able to shoot accurately while moving pointless.

Just another suggestion that ends up lowering the skill cap. No wonder so many people favor this idea. Punish the good pilots while benefiting the bad ones. Flawless!

And why are people even bringing dice into this? There's no need for dice here. We aren't playing with imaginary pilots and randomly calculating their ability to miss. We're our own dice rollers. I miss, the pros miss, everybody misses. Some of us miss less often than others, but the entire, "aiming," thing does not need to be simulated by RNG mechanics because we (as live human players) are perfectly fine of rolling the dice ourselves.

Tahribator, on 29 July 2014 - 11:08 PM, said:

There's going to be a lot of resistance against this, since the "competitive" community has been built over the PPC/AC meta for far too long, but it's for the better. 2xPPC+Gauss is all that is left for the poptart meta and either solution will ensure that it's brought in line with other builds.

Heck, it might even encourage competitive community to check out the customization part of this game.

Nope. In fact the competitive community is already latching onto a couple new meta builds in lieu of the recent JJ changes.

I can see the threads calling for nerfs already, because that's exactly what people do here. They whine about anything that prevents them from stomping their opponents every game. The devs cave in to all the whining (usually ruining whole mechs and weapon systems in the process), the pros find something else, and the players whine again.

Edited by Aresye, 29 July 2014 - 11:16 PM.