1258 replies to this topic

[WarZ]

Another option that I've proposed for well over a year is a control mechanic that I call "Power". Example:

- An engine produces 100 power / second.
- Gauss requires 50 to 60 power to fire.
- PPC requires 40 to 50 power to fire.
- Every weapon of course requires power to be fired.
- Result is you cannot fire anything but a gauss at any moment, or maybe no more than one gauss and one ppc at the same time. Cannot fire more than 2 ppc at the same time. Etc etc.

This suggested mechanic would allow the devs to FULLY control exactly which weapons could and could not fire at the same, as well as the number of a weapon type that could be fired at the same time. Medium lasers might use 15 power. So no more than 6 can fire in an alpha. Let the devs crunch the numbers till they get the combos they want.

Another benefit is you can remove ghost heat. Its no longer needed.

As homelessbill pointed out, yes its another mechanic, BUT it should better than the current bunch of junk mechanics we have to work with now.

Also power is present in the current gauss rifle firing. If you notice the lights in your cockpit dim when you fire a gauss rifle. At least in the atlas

Also power is present in the books / lore. When the clans invide the clan gauss rifle was introduced and when the pilots fired it, the mech would almost shut down. You could not fire any other weapons for a few seconds after firing the gauss, because its power draw was so huge.

[IraqiWalker]

WarZ, on 29 July 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

Another option that I've proposed for well over a year is a control mechanic that I call "Power". Example:

- An engine produces 100 power / second.
- Gauss requires 50 to 60 power to fire.
- PPC requires 40 to 50 power to fire.
- Every weapon of course requires power to be fired.
- Result is you cannot fire anything but a gauss at any moment, or maybe no more than one gauss and one ppc at the same time. Cannot fire more than 2 ppc at the same time. Etc etc.

This suggested mechanic would allow the devs to FULLY control exactly which weapons could and could not fire at the same, as well as the number of a weapon type that could be fired at the same time. Medium lasers might use 15 power. So no more than 6 can fire in an alpha. Let the devs crunch the numbers till they get the combos they want.

Another benefit is you can remove ghost heat. Its no longer needed.

As homelessbill pointed out, yes its another mechanic, BUT it should better than the current bunch of junk mechanics we have to work with now.

Also power is present in the current gauss rifle firing. If you notice the lights in your cockpit dim when you fire a gauss rifle. At least in the atlas

Also power is present in the books / lore. When the clans invide the clan gauss rifle was introduced and when the pilots fired it, the mech would almost shut down. You could not fire any other weapons for a few seconds after firing the gauss, because its power draw was so huge.

Or just implement a 40 heat cap?

[TheAtomiser]

The desync looks good but I don't understand the PPC nerf as PPCs are not overpowered.

[DONTOR]

Please Dear PGI do the projectile speed reduction, if you dis-allow Gauss PPC combo at all how are we supposed to get the achievment for 100 or even 1000 headshots? You need atleast 31-33 damage to do this, and the gauss + 2 ppc is the last way to do so without having to hit the head twice.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I think that the first option will reduce Gauss + PPC usage, but direct folks to more AC + PPC usage. It will have no effect on Energy-specific loadouts.

The latter option will greatly increase AC + PPC usage because the PPCs and AC slugs will hit their targets at the same time, amplifying the effects of that combination system. It will have a significantly adverse effect on energy-specific loadouts.

Based on these thoughts, I would choose the first option.

[DONTOR]

TheAtomiser, on 29 July 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

The desync looks good but I don't understand the PPC nerf as PPCs are not overpowered.

LOL

[Mystere]

IraqiWalker, on 29 July 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

Or just implement a 40 heat cap?

Heck. I'd go even further and make it a 30-point cap as people have proposed long ago.

Or get rid of convergence entirely. Or make it fixed or adjustable only manually.

Either of these is better than bringing the (ER)PPC back to the same uselessness it had during closed beta.

[BIix]

This sounds terrible.

Just triple armor values and move on.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

All you have to do Paul is double the cooldown on all PPC's. Thats it problem solved. But if I had to choose, slower PPC's seems the lesser of the 2 evils. Most people use dual ac5 dual ppc on inner sphere mech " meta builds " anyway. Penalizing people for using Gauss with PPC's is just dumb and doesnt really solve anything.

Edited by Alwrath, 29 July 2014 - 07:29 PM.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

How many times can these Devs attempt to wreck their game before it's beyond fixing at all?

[Joseph Mallan]

I don't need that much armor on my Atlas for crying out loud! And My Jenner dies in a proper heap of crashing metal when smashed by heavy weapons.

[Sable]

Gotta say, slower PPC speed is something i've been wishing for, for a long time. I was happy when they received a slower projectile speed the first time and i'll be happy when they get slowed down again. If you're going to make them 750 though the ghost heat cap for them should go up to 3.

The weapon power thing just seems hard to communicate to the pilot. I mean would we have some sort of warning or energy bar that would get drained when the gauss are charged? The best solutions are usually the easier solutions. Slowing down PPCs gets my seal of approval, can't wait to try them on PTS. It will give lasers more appeal while not negating the fun of PPCs. Good call on this option good call.

Now if only that included getting rid of the charge up on gauss...

Edited by Sable, 29 July 2014 - 07:36 PM.

[Macksheen]

Can we either just

(a) Make it so PPC won't fire while Gauss is charging?
( Put the PPC and Gauss in the same group for ghost heat, so firing guass + 2 PPC generates more heat? etc.?

[Gas Guzzler]

PLEASE do not implement the complex mechanic.

If something MUST be done then look at de-syncing the projectile speed, but honestly I don't even understand why 2 PPC-Gauss needs to be addressed. There is a pretty diverse battlefield right there now, and honestly I do not find my self being overpowered by that combo very often. If 2 PPC 2 Gauss is a problem then let's look at that separately, but lets be real, Dire Wolves are not even mechs that you would see in a serious competition so I don't really see them as being OP.

Again, please think long and hard before making either of these changes. People die and get frustrated and seek to blame game mechanics or certain weapon combinations. That does not mean their concerns are always rational.

As was mentioned previously, perhaps look at upping PPC/Gauss cool down some instead of these? It would be much simpler...

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 29 July 2014 - 07:57 PM.

[R5D4]

Homeless Bill, on 29 July 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Bottom line: the weapon lock mechanic awkward, and there's no way to make it not awkward. And the alternative of changing PPC speed will just make it synergize with higher-calibre autocannons better, so people will switch to that. Sure, it negates the range, but the problem is still ultimately 30+ pinpoint damage to a single location.

I'm begging you to consider something like this. A hurricane of bandaids has done half of what a serious effort to tackle front-loaded damage could do, and you'd have the added benefit of having another way to balance over/under-performing variants.

You could argue that it's complicated, but how is it any more so than the combination of this arbitrary mechanic, Ghost Heat, the Gauss charge, and all the other jumpjet and PPC adjustments it's taken to get even this close? Please go comprehensive and get this over with.

Wish I could up-vote this x1000. Many of us have talked about this type of solution a number of times on the forums but it never gets looked at and/or addressed by the Devs why this couldn't be done. If nothing else I would like to hear from the Dev team why this isn't a viable solution from a game development perspective (leave cost to implement out of the equation here).

Edited by R5D4, 29 July 2014 - 07:58 PM.

[Davers]

FupDup, on 29 July 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

PPCs only become an issue when you have 3+ of them and/or combine them with other pinpoint FLD weapons...the problem is multiple weapons combining to create "superweapons" that dump a lot of damage into a single pixel.

But isn't Paul's suggestion a fix for just that?

stjobe, on 29 July 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Stop PGI, just please for the love of BattleTech STOP!

You can't fix the game this way.

The problem you're trying so desperately to fix is INSTANT CONVERGENCE of all a 'mechs weapons into a single point, which simply breaks the armor system (which was designed for spread damage).

You can fix this several ways:

1. Don't allow weapons to fire simultaneously; implement a short global cooldown. That way instant convergence won't mean all damage applies to the same location instantly.

2. Don't allow perfect accuracy; implement some sort of variable aim-points individually for each weapon, e.g. motion-based cone of fire. That way instant convergence won't mean all damage applies to the same location instantly.

3. Don't allow front-loaded damage; make all weapons spread their damage over time. That way instant convergence won't mean all damage applies to the same location instantly.

Or, you can do it the hard way:

4. Re-implement your HSR solution so it can take non-instant convergence into account.

Either way, you're not going to fix the root problem with more and more complicated and complex "solutions" to individual weapons or weapon combinations. You're going to have to bite this bullet sooner or later; I'd recommend sooner.

But doesn't this 'fix' number 1, which in turn 'fixes' number 2?

Just playing Paul's Advocate here. I realize this is a cumbersome system, but haven't players wanted charge up on PPCs, and limiting the number one could fire at once because lore says it's a massive drain on the mech?

[Koniks]

This is little better than a Hobson's choice. Neither option is a good solution. The first is too complicated--worse than Ghost Heat and the charge mechanic. The second option is slightly better since it'll at least lead to more spread damage but it also penalizes non-meta uses of PPCs.

As adiuvo and others have suggested, neither one of them is going to create balance. It's just going to give the advantage some other overpowered weapon system and you're going to have to keep playing whackamole. This isn't creating a situation where there are counters.

You've really got a limited set of options that will make a difference:
-rebalance every weapon's cooldown so that shortrange DPS builds have a chance--you'll probably also have to redesign most of the maps
-remove instant convergence and overhaul HSR
-cone of fire (please no)
-make every weapon have some form of damage over time, splash, or a different aim/charge mechanic
-overhaul the heat system with a lower cap and faster dissipation

The heat system has the benefit of being simple. The others are needlessly complex and will require a lot of work. Every other solution that affects just one or two weapons at a time isn't going to be sufficient.

[FupDup]

Davers, on 29 July 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

But isn't Paul's suggestion a fix for just that?

"Technically" it is, but it's also convoluted and arbitrary as heck.

It also suffers a similar issue as heat in that it doesn't fix the underlying cause, but rather it just addresses a specific symptom...which will cause the "wheel of meta" to turn once again to find the next new combo to take advantage of this game's balancing issues. It's sort of like playing a perverted game of whack-a-mole. You bop one on the head, another one pops up to take his place.

[soapyfrog]

11 pages I just read. Lot's of anger. Lot's of well reasoned posts as to why this is bad. Several quite reasonable and simpler alternatives proposed.

A handful (maybe 5?) of posters who actually support the idea.

It is ... a little baffling to me how this idea got proposed and worked on and even coded without simpler more elegant solutions being first considered and tested. Did anyone try increasing PPC cooldown? Changing the splash mechanic so that PPCs spread more damage? Giving PPCs a short burst effect instead of an instantaeous bolt? an we get a breakdown as to why ideas like that were rejected without even being tested or presented to the community for feedback as these ideas have?

[Sable]

you know i was just thinking, if PPCs go down to 750mps i almost feel like there wouldn't be a need for ghost heat anymore. Or at least the ghost heat limit being adjusted. Just something to think about.