1258 replies to this topic

[FlipOver]

THANK YOU PGI for asking us our thoughts before implementing something.

I can answer you with a question:
Why is it that all the weapons (ballistic / energy) have the same convergence?

[Foster Bondroff]

Oh yes, more completely arbitrary and complex "balancing" mechanics.

Just skip the idea for heavens sake.

Its really getting hilarious. A Particle Projection Canon with a "muzzle velocity" of only 700-850 m/s.....why not make it a Particle Projection Mortar?

But hey, atleast if you desync PPCs and Gauss in that way, there is no longer any need for that arbitrary charge mechanic on the gauss...

And that i say as someone who would not be effected by this, cause i rarely every play a PPC/Gauss combo.

Edited by Foster Bondroff, 30 July 2014 - 05:34 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Foster Bondroff, on 30 July 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

Oh yes, more completely arbitrary and complex "balancing" mechanics.

Its really getting hilarious. A Particle Projection Canon with a "muzzle velocity" of only 700-850 m/s.....why not make it a Particle Projection Mortar?

But hey, atleast if you desync PPCs and Gauss in that way, there is no longer any need for that arbitrary charge mechanic on the gauss...

And that i say as someone who would not be effected by this, cause i rarely every play a PPC/Gauss combo.

Then it becomes Dual PPC and AC/20 again. Sure the range is shorter, but it's still 40 PPFLD yet again.

Or Dual PPC, AC/10. Or Dual PPC Dual LBX5 (for Clans).

Note, we're still going to have 30-40 PP FLD damage.

Unless the point is to just nerf the Dire Wolf (at which point, you might as well just remove it from the game), you have to tackle the root of the problem.

We keep doing this dance, where PPC's just flow from one AC to another AC to Gauss to another AC over and over.

It's stupid.

[Kraven Kor]

Listen, I hate PPC's. I hate pop-tarts. I do.

But the PPC is an Energy Weapon. The projectile should be blindingly, amazingly fast.

Make the gorram PPC be a charge-up weapon somehow. Make the projectile stupid fast, as it should be, and do something, anything else to balance it.

The PPC should be one of, if not the, fastest "projectiles" in the game.

Period.

Know how I think it should work? You should have to paint your target for X.X seconds and then the PPC discharges once "locked." You know, like how they describe the weapon functioning like a bolt of lightning. It shouldn't be auto-hit and it shouldn't track, but at the point the timer goes "ding" the bolt should hit more or less the place you were aiming at when it "locked."

[BatWing]

To Paul and PGI staff:

you requested for feedback on your idea and i hope there will be someone reading the feedback, because obviously we care about the future of the game and its playability. We are investing some time to write back yo you and i hope this message will reach you.

I will try to provide an Unbiased and Constructive criticism to your plan. What i do care is the future of this game

First of all, i want to give you a plause because so far you handled a very difficult task You crated a MW games that uses almost all of the weapons available.

This is a major success so far. looking back in the past MW2, 3 and 4 were mostly a Laser fest because of poor netcode and many other weapons were completely unreliable due to lag and hit registration.

So far you worked hard to solve this problem and the results are very positive.
In fact today we have debates if we should use ERLL, ACs, LRMs, SRMs, Clan weaponry... all of this may work depending what role you want to get on the battlefield.

This is a major achievement.

Now, befoore i comment on your plan ERPPC+Gauss, i need to ask an important question:

--> What is exactly your goal with this action?
1 - Do you want to reduce the Long Range engagement?
2 - Do you want to reduce the Alpha pinpoint?
3 - Both

First of all, let's keep in mind something you introduced into this game for the first time: MAX RANGE FACTOR

No MW game before had the Max Range Factor. This is a major game changer.
Following the rules, a weapon that shoots at 660 mtr, does damage at that range - no further damage

With your Max Range Factor you activated a very different vision of what is "long range" in this game. I take a weapon such as a Gauss, effective at 660 mtr, and because of your NEW rule I can push the envelope of it producing decent damage at 150% of his range. THIS IS WRONG and this is creating a false scenario for many other weapons.

Assuming for a moment the Max Range was not present on this game, the de-sync of Gauss and PPC would be already there, in large part.
You would have a massive alpha at 660mtr.
If your goal is to reduce Long Range, you should work on reducing your Max Range rule and NOT TOUCH PROJECTILE VELOCITY

However, if you want to continue using your Max range rule the way it is and you want to stay on the "Projectile velocity" solution you have in mind, be prepared that the next BIG DEAL will be CERLL

If i cannot shoot "ballistic" weapons because of a slow projectile (I consider PPC ballistic because i have to lead to hit with the projectile), then i will use a LASER weapon. CERLL are very long range and with TC they get over 900mtr full damage efficency.

Do you believe a beam of 1.5 secs will be a deterrent from BOATING as many CERLL I can and still shoot over 900 mtr full damage and up to 1700 mtr "Max Range" ??

You mess with Gauss PPC and your next problem will be CERLL.

In regard to point 2 - reducing Alpha pinpoint, that is something that is very relative.

You cannot create unrealistic rules to justify a player customization cannot be achieved.

If you create a mech that HAS a certain number of hard point and allows a customization, then you have to allow that customization.

IMO you worked very well in balancing the DireWolf being very slow and with poor torso twist, although it can house a massive firepower.

You balanced PUBLIC games with the 4*3 rule, which i think is working pretty well to maintain some balance.

Normally PUBLIC games do not have more than 3 assaults, therefore cannot be more than 3 devastating DiireWolf loaded with many GAuss- PPCs.

TEAMWORK kills Direwolfes. If MWO players don t want to play as a team, you cannot devastate a balanced situation because "they" are not able to handle that mech.

What happens in Private Teams and "Competition" is different. there are different Rules of Engagement and that pretty much solve the issue upfront.

Therefore the only issue is the PUBLIC QUEUE and CASUAL PLAYERS unable to learn to play as a team.

I do not believe you should nerf an entire weapon system just because ONE MECH allows that configuration AND casual players cannot understand how to counter it.

I am running out of my time here.

I wonder if anyone will even read this message, other than the other "users" like myself here.

Good luck with your dilemma, please do not break a game that at the moment works pretty decently and....

MOST IMPORTANTLY DO NOT TRANSFORM MWO IN A LASER FEST.

Thank you very much.

[VagGR]

In this case i have to go with the complicated solution A as the best. PPCs and GR have to get delinked. period. While the speed reductions sounds good and simple in reality it will nerf the PPC as single long range weapon.

Not to mention that yes if you know you are getting shot at you will be able to twist and spread the dmg but what about when you dont know you are about to get shot? Because you cant always know what 12 enemy mechs are doing every single moment. So in reality the speed reduction is a very limited fix.

The PPC/GR combo has to get delinked there is no way around it....so yeah for this once i vote for the complex solution.

As a side note there is one more thing you can do to PPCs that will fix a lot of problems and does not require complex mechanics. Increase the cooldown to 6 secs.

[Reno Blade]

Why do so many people say that you need less skill if you can't shoot your alpha together?
It's the opposite!
You need more skill to land seperate shots into the same spot compared to a single volley.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Reno Blade, on 30 July 2014 - 05:32 AM, said:

Why do so many people say that you need less skill if you can't shoot your alpha together?
It's the opposite!
You need more skill to land seperate shots into the same spot compared to a single volley.

Exactly.

Chain Firing = Harder, and it allows varied load outs, since you don't have to worry about all of your weapons working the exact same way for your SUPER OVER 9000 POWER ALPHAS.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

pwnface, on 30 July 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

Tripling the recycle time seems a little drastic, it would reduce the effective DPS of the Gauss to abysmal levels. Maybe add a second or two at most.

maybe but the weapon already has very little drawbacks, explodes when critically hit incredibly rare form my experience even ammo explosion don't occur much anymore and a small charge mechanic that's more a benefit then a nerf imo. it needs something negative and something fairly large to bring it in line with other weapons, otherwise its just a weapon with 1 minor annoyance (charge up) i would be happy even if it was just doubled to 7/8 second cycle, imo it would be nice to compensate for the lack of negative drawbacks.

[kapusta11]

LOGIC, WHERE R U???

[Livewyr]

Additional stupid side effect of Option 1:

Completely leaves alone with AC/PPC combinations of the IS, and destroys the Gauss/ERPPC combination- the Clans ONLY counters. Net effect: Eliminate the clan mechs from PP FLD sniping role.

I sincerely hope they give this outrage the same ear they gave Coolantgate

Edited by Livewyr, 30 July 2014 - 05:45 AM.

[Prezimonto]

I actually don't mind this solution, in concept. I don't care for it in execution. It's Ghost Heat 2.0, which if Ghost Heat did all it was promised we wouldn't need this.

What I don't understand is why it's not being applied universally.

Whether you call it energy load, reactor load, targeting computer load, or the load I just dumped... it's an alpha strike limiting mechanic.

I would like to point out that around the time ghost heat was released (also an alpha strike limiting mechanic) LOTS of other solutions were suggested that would have necessitated only ONE of these mechanics ever be brought into play. This exact problem was pointed out at that time, just as the NEXT set of problems are already being point out. What's going to cost your more, several small band aides and lots of annoyed players, or dedicating a team to real fix once, and making it work well for every situation you or we can come up with?

Why not go take a re-look at Homeless Bill's or DocBach's ideas again (Targeting computer load and/or multi-point aiming reticle)? They were a single solution to this problem that dealt with all of it at one time, and they both provided much easier to understand visuals INSIDE the game for what was happening. They both would have had the affect of limiting pin-point alpha strikes to single hard points, which is really what needs limiting.

Edited by Prezimonto, 30 July 2014 - 05:46 AM.

[Bhelogan]

Honestly, I would just add a charge mechanic to the PPC, like we have for the Gauss, and tie it's charge limit to the Gauss. That way, you can fire 2 of either in any combination you like at once, but no more. Don't screw with the speed of the PPC, and don't add another funky game mechanic that is hard to teach new players.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Livewyr, on 30 July 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

Additional stupid side effect of Option 1:

Completely leaves alone with AC/PPC combinations of the IS, and destroys the Gauss/ERPPC combination- the Clans ONLY counters. Net effect: Eliminate the clan mechs from sniping role.

I sincerely hope they give this outrage the same ear they gave Coolantgate

Exactly. It's dumb. It just shifts things AGAIN.

It's a rediculously poorly thought out cycle.

2 PPC + Gauss

2 PPC + AC/20

2 PPC + 2 AC/5

2 PPC + Gauss again

2 PPC + 2 AC/5 again

2 PPC + AC/20 if they nerf the velocity.

It just keeps shifting the problem around without fixing it.

[The Great Unwashed]

Very much not in favor of a decrease in projectile weapon for the PPC as it would remove the ability to hit anthing at range and remove one of the few pinpoint damage clan weapons and it might kill the AC5/PPC meta (which is not needed).

There is no real reason for weapons that charge not to be fired at the same time and the lockdown system sounds convoluted.

If you want to avoid dire wolfs shooting PPCs and Gauss rifles, then give each arm a maximum weight so the PPC/Gauss cannot be mounted in one arm or somesuch.

Or add the Gauss rifle to the ERPPC ghost heat table... (which I also do not like at all).

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 30 July 2014 - 05:47 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bhelogan, on 30 July 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

Honestly, I would just add a charge mechanic to the PPC, like we have for the Gauss, and tie it's charge limit to the Gauss. That way, you can fire 2 of either in any combination you like at once, but no more. Don't screw with the speed of the PPC, and don't add another funky game mechanic that is hard to teach new players.

Doesn't address the main issue, which isn't PPC + Gauss, it's PPC and ANY OTHER PPFLD WEAPONS aside from the AC/2.

The Great Unwashed, on 30 July 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

Very much not in favor of a decrease in projectile weapon for the PPC as it would remove the ability to hit anthing at range and remove one of the few pinpoint damage clan weapons and it might kill the AC5/PPC meta (which is not needed).

There is no real reason for weapons that charge not to be fired at the same time and the lockdown system sounds convoluted.

If you want to avoid dire wolfs shooting PPCs and Gauss rifles, then give each arm a maximum weight so the PPC/Gauss cannot be mounted in one arm or somesuch.

And then we are right back here when people start getting ganked by Dual PPC/AC/20 Combos or whatever the next iteration may be.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

kapusta11, on 30 July 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

LOGIC, WHERE R U???

You're wrong dood. PGI and logic exists in different dimensions, galaxies, universes, time continuums
Just imagine... nerf the Particle Projectile Cannon "projectile" speed? Did U imagine it? In Real Life those particles "move"with speeds alike 7miles in second, at least. IRL in game PPC should work like... thunderbolt striking mech, how it works now? Yap. Like an icecream pop tart shot.
Gauss Rifle or Gauss Step Electro-Magnetic Accelerator (IRL) at least should fire "a projectile" at the speed around 3000m/s, at least. What we got InGame? Right, some mix between an standart RPG shot mixed with arc welding, with a damage of a flour bag fallen from 2 floor.

I'm o'key with making it not working with PPC+G00ss or opposite, but...

I got only question to PGI:
- GUYS WHAT U'R SMOKIN'? IS IT A PRESCRIPTION OR NON PRESCRIPTION MEDICATION?

Edited by Lala Satalin Deviluke, 30 July 2014 - 05:52 AM.

[VagGR]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 30 July 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

Exactly.

Chain Firing = Harder, and it allows varied load outs, since you don't have to worry about all of your weapons working the exact same way for your SUPER OVER 9000 POWER ALPHAS.

Every aspect of this game requires some skill..even LRMs...i guess a lot of people will try to defend the PPC/GR combo for different reasons. But there is one ugly truth we all need to see here. The direwhale and its firepower has the advantage of making average players look good. All you have to do is stay back and land 10 hits in 10mins, not that hard is it. 600dmg right there 500 of which pinpoint, which in turn will guarantee you a kill or two. and if you are a half decent player you can do a lot more than that.

But this is an online game and it needs to be balanced and 50pp dmg is just too much. Hell even 30 is too much if you ask me no weapon or weapon combo should be doing more than 20 pinpoint dmg....

[nopempele]

Dear developers, please stop inventing ****** mechanics that no one likes except you. Thank you.

P.S.: Ghost heat is still awful, and no one likes it.

[3rdworld]

Not a fan of either idea.

the speed you propose is between the AC/20 & AC/10....we see how amazing those weapons are.

The Gauss & PPC linking does nothing to the IS, they just switch back to AC/5s or UACs.

If you really cannot balance the weapon systems, just remove them from the dang game already. Constantly adding new mechanics to the gauss is getting old. See: Weapon detonation, weapon fragility, charge mechanic, no 3 gauss linking.