1258 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 30 July 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

All that proves is that the game is really just a poorly created arena combat sim.

If this was any sort of real mechwarrior game, you'd have huge maps and dynamic objectives that make your strategy impossible.

And that could only happen in Skirmish on top of that.

And really? is that any different than 8 Dire Whales with PPC/Gauss rifles doing the same exact thing?

I mean really, your argument is dumb, and I welcome Large Lasers to PPFLD.

Way to miss the script killer.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

AMS works fine. I don't use it, don't need it, if I die to LRM I'm usually legged and going to die to the four mechs I'm standing in the middle of anyway. Its not something I worry about ....and yes, that includes being NARC'd. I have a trip ECM shitfox that basically invalidates a cLRM 40 mech, maybe 4-5 missiles get through. If you feel that you need it, rock it. I regard it as a waste of tonnage.

Exactly, which is why Phoenix is just being a giant cry baby.

[Livewyr]

DEHK, on 30 July 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

I logged in for this so I'm sure I'll be a "retained player" now but...

Why is Paul obsessed devising intricate solutions that amount to "you can't use those weapons together"?

Make sniper weapons do great damage but have terrible cool-down?

That would be too much like every other game's balance method for long range precision weapons.

[Straith]

I don't think adding more weird gimmicks to the system is the solution to your problem. I think you'd be better served by having the two weapons differ in their behavior more.

I'll throw in my wish list for how to fix this problem

* Add bullet drop to gauss rounds
* Give gauss and PPC sufficiently different projectile speeds
* Add slight inaccuracy as a function of the mech moving. So if you want pin point accuracy, you have to hold still to get it. This fits in with the table tops walk/run mechanic nicely.

Edited by Straith, 30 July 2014 - 08:04 AM.

[NovaWasp]

I posted this in general discussion. Then I realized it should have been here.

I'd like to see them make gauss +2 to ppc ghost heat. I.e. fire a gauss and ppc get hit with 3 ppc heat. Fire 2 ppc with it get hit with 4 ppc heat. Make ac5 one half and round down.

[Bilbo]

Trevelyas, on 30 July 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

It's likely that's because currently players who gravitate toward the PPC+Gauss combo may be more skilled/have better aim than those who prefer large laser builds. When the meta shifts, those players will be just as savage with their clan ERLL boating.

If we assume equal skill, which position would you rather assault?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

Way to miss the script killer.

No you did, THEY CANNOT FIX CONVERGENCE.

END OF STORY.

It won't happen. Your little Dire Wolf example doesn't change that fact.

So we are stuck with gimmicks or fundamental changes to the game mechanics.

We can enforce chain fire only.

We can add hard point restrictions.

Or we can add some random mechanic that makes firing PPFLD together impossible.

But the fact of the matter is, PPFLD has to go, and if it means the meta shifts to Lasers. THAT IS FINE.

[Ace Kaller]

The locking mechanic is overly complicated, but I COULD live with it.

Decreasing the PPCs speed to that of a hand-tossed water balloon is a terrible idea that will simply make PPCs a totally non-viable weapon, period.

[Hellcat420]

Alwrath, on 29 July 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

All you have to do Paul is double the cooldown on all PPC's. Thats it problem solved. But if I had to choose, slower PPC's seems the lesser of the 2 evils. Most people use dual ac5 dual ppc on inner sphere mech " meta builds " anyway. Penalizing people for using Gauss with PPC's is just dumb and doesnt really solve anything.

so your saying that penalizing people for using ppc+gauss is dumb, but its ok to penalize people for using a single ppc(that happens to be the weaker of the 2 weapons)?

Edited by Hellcat420, 30 July 2014 - 08:08 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Livewyr, on 30 July 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

I would never hop out of my ERLL SCR or Kit Fox.

Ironically, my more or less stock Scarecrow is my best medium, damn thing is good for 500 damage and 3 kills pretty much every game......barring me doing something stupid. Its far and away my best variant, compared to the LRMer and the ghetto atlas builds.

Livewyr, on 30 July 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

ERLL Ravens would thank you even more. They pummel your big fat*** assault mech from 600+ meters because the spread on 2 LL would not be enough to MISS your mech, and you return fire, and maybe hope to hit them with a weapon?

Kill those guys with direwales all of the time.....and I rarely use pinpont builds.

Livewyr, on 30 July 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Here is an idea: Take an LBX 10, and try and hit your buddy in a side-profile spider from 200 meters or more... you might get an idea of how silly that sounds.

Yeah, other than the rare guy that can aim (ironically with a PPC) Spiders are good for drawing pugs into a squirrel chase and being the last mech alive....period.

Livewyr, on 30 July 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Tighten the spread enough to hit a light mech, and you are coring out Atlas CTs. Loosen the spread so you do not core Atlases, and you cannot hit light mechs.

I used to blast them all of the time back in the pre-HSR days, often with an AC20 on an Atlas.

Livewyr, on 30 July 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Excuse me? Could you clarify your statement there? It seems blatantly false.

Really......SO these mechs aren't using a hitbox system DIRECTLY derived from the battletech game.....with was RNG....TOTALLY RNG, you ROLLED DICE!

But I can aim 8 weapons and hit the same spot?

False?

Wut?

Nicholas Carlyle, on 30 July 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

No you did, THEY CANNOT FIX CONVERGENCE.

Dafuq they can't, EVERY other mainstream shooter has been doing it for years, its called a cone of fire.

Edited by Yokaiko, 30 July 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[OznerpaG]

ditch ghost heat, make a limit of how many of any particular weapon class you can fire:

PPC/Gauss class - only 2 fire at once, all PPC/gauss recharge when you fire 2 of them (either or both)

all LLas - only 2 fire at once, all LLas recharge when you fire 2 of them

all MLas/SLas - only 6 fire at once, all recharge when you fire 6 of them

SRMs - only 4 fire at once, all SRMs recharge when you fire 4 of them

LRMs - only 3 fire at once, all LRMs recharge when you fire 3 of them



but then introduce quirks like Catapults can fire 6 LRMs at once, Awesome can fire 3 PPCs at once, etc

Edited by JagdFlanker, 30 July 2014 - 08:13 AM.

[Bifrost Guard]

I honestly do not like either option. As many others have stated, the core problem that all of these bandaid fixes have been trying to cover is perfect weapon convergence.

[Trevelyas]

Bilbo, on 30 July 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

If we assume equal skill, which position would you rather assault?

I would rather push on PPC-combo snipers rather than a team boating clan ERLLs because PPC-combos are much less heat efficient and lack the sustain needed to survive the brawl once we arrive. Look at smurfy and examine the damage-per-heat ratios of clan ERLL compared to all PPC types.

A clan ERLL team can not only seriously damage you during your approach, they can brawl you once you arrive. We have gotten tastes of this in competitive play.

[Yokaiko]

JagdFlanker, on 30 July 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

ditch ghost heat, make a limit of how many of any particular weapon class you can fire:

PPC/Gauss class - only 2 fire at once, all PPC/gauss recharge when you fire 2 of them (either or both)

all LLas - only 2 fire at once, all LLas recharge when you fire 2 of them

all MLas/SLas - only 6 fire at once, all recharge when you fire 6 of them

SRMs - only 4 fire at once, all SRMs recharge when you fire 4 of them

LRMs - only 3 fire at once, all LRMs recharge when you fire 3 of them



but then introduce quirks like Catapults can fire 6 LRMs at once, Awesome can fire 3 PPCs at once, etc

So you are going to A) nerf the hell out of cannon boaters that can't mount all three weapon types. Any mech under 55 tons that can't mount big ballistics

and buff the hell out of heavier platforms with a lot of slots and diverse types?

Brilliant.

[S3dition]

stjobe, on 29 July 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Stop PGI, just please for the love of BattleTech STOP!

You can't fix the game this way.

The problem you're trying so desperately to fix is INSTANT CONVERGENCE of all a 'mechs weapons into a single point, which simply breaks the armor system (which was designed for spread damage).

[...]

2. Don't allow perfect accuracy; implement some sort of variable aim-points individually for each weapon, e.g. motion-based cone of fire. That way instant convergence won't mean all damage applies to the same location instantly.

[...]

^THIS. SO MUCH THIS.

You've taken a game based on random dice rolls and shoehorned Modern Warfare into it. It's too easy to deal pinpoint damage in a game that is supposed to rely heavily on distributed location based damage. How frequently do mechs get cored in 2 rounds of shooting in the board game?

The weapons, cool down, heat, range, velocity, etc are not the problem. Everyone is a sniper with perfectly accurate weapons against relatively slow moving targets. Consider the LRM issues you have when they all hit the same location. You've made the same problem with every other weapon in the game.

Find better ways to distribute damage and make it harder to land sequential alpha strikes on the same location.That will be less complex, more player friendly, and far less frustrating to manage in the heat of battle.

What we don't need is yet another arbitrary resource bar. Mechs do not have an energy problem. When they need more energy, the fusion engine supplies it at the cost of additional heat. This is why we already have the heat bar. If you have an energy bar that prevents using weapons, then suddenly you no longer need heat because the mech can't fire often enough to fill the heat bar.

I support a cone of fire for all ballistic weapons and PPC's, as they are prone to wind, gravity, tremors, recoil, and just about anything else that can move.

It also solves the jump sniper problem without making the reticle jitter. Prevent zooming while in flight (why would the mech endanger the pilot by allowing them to lose focus on their landing area? In the board game, you could fall flat on your face doing this and literally kill yourself from a bad jump) and dramatically increase the cone of fire. Jump sniping solved.

[Adiuvo]

Trevelyas, on 30 July 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

I would rather push on PPC-combo snipers rather than a team boating clan ERLLs because PPC-combos are much less heat efficient and lack the sustain needed to survive the brawl once we arrive. Look at smurfy and examine the damage-per-heat ratios of clan ERLL compared to all PPC types.

A clan ERLL team can not only seriously damage you during your approach, they can brawl you once you arrive. We have gotten tastes of this in competitive play.

You posted on the forums. Woah.

[Yokaiko]

Trevelyas, on 30 July 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

A clan ERLL team can not only seriously damage you during your approach, they can brawl you once you arrive. We have gotten tastes of this in competitive play.

Exactly what I was getting at earlier.

[AztecD]

Please dont make any changes, the current gauss charge is enough of a desync.

if i run my firestarter or hunck back at a direwale face first i deserve to get insta gibbed

[Trevelyas]

Adiuvo, on 30 July 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

You posted on the forums. Woah.

If you're impressed by that post look at my earlier one!

[Livewyr]

Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Ironically, my more or less stock Scarecrow is my best medium, damn thing is good for 500 damage and 3 kills pretty much every game......barring me doing something stupid. Its far and away my best variant, compared to the LRMer and the ghetto atlas builds.

Ok? Good on you, but how is this Ironic- or relevant?

Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Kill those guys with direwales all of the time.....and I rarely use pinpont builds.

Nice Anecdote.. about using the current convergence system to do it? (Even if you are not using FLD, almost everything in this game is PP to your reticule)

Or are you masterfully killing them at range with LBXs and SRMs?

Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Yeah, other than the rare guy that can aim (ironically with a PPC) Spiders are good for drawing pugs into a squirrel chase and being the last mech alive....period.

What if I told you.. I can aim?
Anecdotes aside- quit evading the argument. You KNOW an RNG spread mechanic on weapons convergence would just be a huge buff to lights (and a huge nerf to Assaults) and a drastic reduction in skill.

Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Tighten the spread enough to hit a light mech, and you are coring out Atlas CTs. Loosen the spread so you do not core Atlases, and you cannot hit light mechs.

Guessing you missed this in quote partitioning?

Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Really......SO these mechs aren't using a hitbox system DIRECTLY derived from the battletech game.....with was RNG....TOTALLY RNG, you ROLLED DICE!

But I can aim 8 weapons and hit the same spot?

False?

Wut?

Clear communication is OP. What you meant was "They are basing hitboxes off of a game that used RNG for accuracy."
That is true.

They also changed the profile sizes of the mechs and made everything in real time.

Now, what is your point?

Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Dafuq they can't, EVERY other mainstream shooter has been doing it for years, its called a cone of fire.

Every other mainstream shooter has similarly sized characters moving at similar speeds, with similar amounts of "health."

There is nothing I have seen in any shooter where there is a character the size of a Locust or Spider compared to an Atlas.