Nicholas Carlyle, on 30 July 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:
Do you not understand how chain firing would INCREASE usage of multiple weapons types?
The only weapon that retains its current efficiency with enforced chain-firing are LRMs. Period. You can argue about AMS all you want, 23 out of 24 mechs I see in every game do NOT have AMS, just because it is useless against any significant number or LRMs (>30). ALL other weapons except LRMs will be worse. Now you can stop pretending you care about game balance one bit. And if you actually watched any of the competitive matches you'd see that SRMs and AC20s are what rule the field. PPCs and Gauss rifles have been nerfed to oblivion long ago.
If I had to chose one, I'd pick the staggered firing, rather than reduce the speed of PPC.
But it still remains a twitcher game.
I'd rather see something representing the weak targeting systems of the real battle tech universe, but we all know how popular a cone fire system that reduces size with pilot skill and range is with the twitch crowd
Can't possibly have something canon, that might impact the e-sport crowd
Didn't the developers state that their goals for MWO were to make it an E-Sport? If true, the community needs to accept the state of the game and direction as such instead of clamoring onto a forgone hope that it will come to resemble canon/lore/TT/YourpersonalnotionofBattleTech. Doing so is the first step towards a healthy perspective and attitude. At the very least you can begin to make balance suggestions based on reality.
Yeah, you ever watch a couple 8 llas DWF's camp a corner? I've done it. We parked a pair of 8 llas DWFs on the island in Crimson and dared all comers.....in the group queue.
.....we waltzed out with about 2800 damage and 9 kills between the two of us.
How about they stop with the ******** bandaid machanics and FIX THE ******* CONVERGENCE.
Yeah, you ever watch a couple 8 llas DWF's camp a corner? I've done it. We parked a pair of 8 llas DWFs on the island in Crimson and dared all comers.....in the group queue.
.....we waltzed out with about 2800 damage and 9 kills between the two of us.
How about they stop with the ******** bandaid machanics and FIX THE ******* CONVERGENCE.
When are you going to figure out that there is not much they can do with convergence, because any which way they do it, some weight class is going to be screwed, and another one ultra buffed.
I have to agree with Batwing, and is what I said in my post on page 11. It feels like all these changes are to make the new guys happy and make them feel like they can play, instead of them learning how to play a more complicated and sophisticated first person shooter. Lets just equip all mechs with SRMS and Medium lasers and brawl it out. No LRMs, No Ac's and no PPC/Gauss.
I die at least 8 out of 10 times more from LRM spammers than I do gauss/PPC combos. There are at least 2 or 3 LRM boats in each match I am in and all they do is Sit in the back and Fire away. That takes no skill.
Lets just remove more of the skill needed to play this game with the PPC/Gauss since you have to learn how to aim and time your pint point shot all while be exposed to the LRM 60s raining down on you.
BatWing, on 30 July 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:
To Paul and PGI staff:
you requested for feedback on your idea and i hope there will be someone reading the feedback, because obviously we care about the future of the game and its playability. We are investing some time to write back yo you and i hope this message will reach you.
I will try to provide an Unbiased and Constructive criticism to your plan. What i do care is the future of this game
First of all, i want to give you a plause because so far you handled a very difficult task You crated a MW games that uses almost all of the weapons available.
This is a major success so far. looking back in the past MW2, 3 and 4 were mostly a Laser fest because of poor netcode and many other weapons were completely unreliable due to lag and hit registration.
So far you worked hard to solve this problem and the results are very positive.
In fact today we have debates if we should use ERLL, ACs, LRMs, SRMs, Clan weaponry... all of this may work depending what role you want to get on the battlefield.
This is a major achievement.
Now, befoore i comment on your plan ERPPC+Gauss, i need to ask an important question:
--> What is exactly your goal with this action? 1 - Do you want to reduce the Long Range engagement? 2 - Do you want to reduce the Alpha pinpoint? 3 - Both
First of all, let's keep in mind something you introduced into this game for the first time: MAX RANGE FACTOR
No MW game before had the Max Range Factor. This is a major game changer.
Following the rules, a weapon that shoots at 660 mtr, does damage at that range - no further damage
With your Max Range Factor you activated a very different vision of what is "long range" in this game. I take a weapon such as a Gauss, effective at 660 mtr, and because of your NEW rule I can push the envelope of it producing decent damage at 150% of his range. THIS IS WRONG and this is creating a false scenario for many other weapons.
Assuming for a moment the Max Range was not present on this game, the de-sync of Gauss and PPC would be already there, in large part.
You would have a massive alpha at 660mtr. If your goal is to reduce Long Range, you should work on reducing your Max Range rule and NOT TOUCH PROJECTILE VELOCITY
However, if you want to continue using your Max range rule the way it is and you want to stay on the "Projectile velocity" solution you have in mind, be prepared that the next BIG DEAL will be CERLL
If i cannot shoot "ballistic" weapons because of a slow projectile (I consider PPC ballistic because i have to lead to hit with the projectile), then i will use a LASER weapon. CERLL are very long range and with TC they get over 900mtr full damage efficency.
Do you believe a beam of 1.5 secs will be a deterrent from BOATING as many CERLL I can and still shoot over 900 mtr full damage and up to 1700 mtr "Max Range" ??
You mess with Gauss PPC and your next problem will be CERLL.
In regard to point 2 - reducing Alpha pinpoint, that is something that is very relative.
You cannot create unrealistic rules to justify a player customization cannot be achieved.
If you create a mech that HAS a certain number of hard point and allows a customization, then you have to allow that customization.
IMO you worked very well in balancing the DireWolf being very slow and with poor torso twist, although it can house a massive firepower.
You balanced PUBLIC games with the 4*3 rule, which i think is working pretty well to maintain some balance.
Normally PUBLIC games do not have more than 3 assaults, therefore cannot be more than 3 devastating DiireWolf loaded with many GAuss- PPCs.
TEAMWORK kills Direwolfes. If MWO players don t want to play as a team, you cannot devastate a balanced situation because "they" are not able to handle that mech.
What happens in Private Teams and "Competition" is different. there are different Rules of Engagement and that pretty much solve the issue upfront.
Therefore the only issue is the PUBLIC QUEUE and CASUAL PLAYERS unable to learn to play as a team.
I do not believe you should nerf an entire weapon system just because ONE MECH allows that configuration AND casual players cannot understand how to counter it.
I am running out of my time here.
I wonder if anyone will even read this message, other than the other "users" like myself here.
Good luck with your dilemma, please do not break a game that at the moment works pretty decently and....
MOST IMPORTANTLY DO NOT TRANSFORM MWO IN A LASER FEST.
Yeah, you ever watch a couple 8 llas DWF's camp a corner? I've done it. We parked a pair of 8 llas DWFs on the island in Crimson and dared all comers.....in the group queue.
.....we waltzed out with about 2800 damage and 9 kills between the two of us.
How about they stop with the ******** bandaid machanics and FIX THE ******* CONVERGENCE.
When are you going to figure out that there is not much they can do with convergence, because any which way they do it, some weight class is going to be screwed, and another one ultra buffed.
Different. Sized. Mechs. At. Different. Speeds.
So turn it off, and spread X range at X distance, more weapons, more spread.
That way YOU CAN'T put 35, 50, 60 point hits on one panel.
They are using RNG hitboxes and weapon values for pin point aimed weapons......duh.
Bilbo, on 30 July 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:
I can't help that your opponents did it wrong.
Out of LRM range, anything that wanted to hit back had to expose themselves to a pair of DWFs on coms calling targets. TTK about 1.5 seconds.
Lets analyze the options we have without any prejudice or emotion of fear (for nerfs).
Spoiler
Slower projectile: Easy change, easy to learn, low impact to the gameplay, medium change of FLD alpha.
It's very similar to AC20 and AC10 speed and could shift the 2PPC/Gauss combo and 2PPC/2AC5 combo back to previous 2PPC/AC10 and 2PPC/AC20 combos.
PPC closer to AC20 and ERPPC closer to AC10 speed seems a good way to give both types a place.
Minor spread for PPC/Gauss combo mostly affecting Clans, because of their UAC burst if IS don't get AC burst aswell. The effect of spreading FLD Alpha strike damage working for long range better than medium range with PPC/Gauss.
Longer Cooldown: Easy change, easy to learn, minor impact to gameplay, no change to FLD alpha.
Heat is already a limiting factor for rate of fire.
Gameplay with only one weapon would lose dps but become a bit better for heat efficiency.
Longer cooldown for PPC and/or Gauss would not change the FLD Alpha. The effect to lower the FLD potency and spread incomming damage is zero.
PPC/Gauss limit: Difficult change, hard to learn, big impact to gameplay, big change to FLD alpha.
The System works very close to the 2-Gauss charge limit (to prevent 4-Gauss Alphas).
Gameplay for builds with only 2 of these weapons would NOT change at all.
Gameplay for affected builds would be similar to 4 PPC builds, space your shots. The effect would be more spaced fire of 2Gauss then 2 PPC which would give targets enough time to mitigate damage (twisting, turning, cover) = working as intended.
Other builds like LL/Gauss would be used more often, but they already spread damage because of beam time which can be mitigated better than PPC fire = working as intended.
PPCs with more splash: Easy change, easy to learn, medium impact to the game, big change to FLD alpha.
The CERPPC showed us something already about the splash.
People seem to hate to "waste" splash damage and ignore it, but it affects FLD alphas more than general use (like builds without big Alphas).
The splash damage acting like shooting a laser without beam duration, or like LBX/SRM with better accuracy.
Increasing the splash of all PPCs would make them less attractive for FLD which purpose is to fast core your target with the least amount of shots and highest amount of accuracy. The effect would be that damage would be more spread at all ranges and would give skilled players more reason to use their skill with laser weapons to focus on one spot = working as intended.
This would affect FLD alphas and skilled players more than the average player (who can't keep hitting the same spot multiple times).
Convergence/Bloom: Complicated change, average to learn, big impact to the game, big change to FLD alpha.
The often called best fix - Convergence or reticule bloom.
All weapon fire would spread to random directions similar to JJet shake does already depending on different factors like speed and heat or amount of weapons fired together.
Does remove the ability to shoot single spots for the skilled players. The effect would be RNG and everywhere and would affect all weapons which would keep the PPCs still above Lasers while adding some spread = working as intended with (negative) side-effects.
Conclusion or TL;DR version:
If the goal is to give players the ability to survive and mitigate damage better by movement, twisting and cover then there needs to be some spacing of shots or impacts and most of the methods will have more or less spacing.
Projectile Speed would space the impacts by a small amount depending on range which only reduces long-ranged Alphas, but not medium/short range Alphas. PPC/Gausslimit would be the most efficient way to space the shots of PPC/Gauss Alphas itself.
While more Splash would not space the shots or the impact, it would space the damge itself, but removes part of the skill to use the weapon with precision. Cooldown or Convergence are limited in their effect towards this intended goal.
So overall, it seems the best way to go would be the implemented PPC/Gauss limitPLUS either PPC Splash or Projectile speed together with IS AC burst to prevent builds just going back to PPC/AC10 combos for the most effective FLD alphas.
Oh, I forgot some options there...
let me add them to the list of analyzed options.
Ghost heat link for PPC/Gauss: Easy change, hard to learn, medium impact to the game, medium change to FLD alpha.
While it looks good on paper, there are some cases to consider.
While you could use 3PPCs (with total heat of 4 PPCs) together or 2PPC+1Gauss (with total heat of 3 PPCs) the reason to take the PPC/Gauss combo over other combos (3PPCs, or Gauss/LL) would be gone and it would have the same effect as some of the other changes -> PPC/AC combos getting better.
The effect would be similar without completely removing the ability to do so, just as any other energy based ghost heat combos.
Energy Drain bar (new mechanic replacing ghost heat) Difficult change, hard to learn (easier if there is a energy meter), medium impact to the game, big change to FLD alpha.
As mentioned at different places from different people, some kind of Energy Drain could be used to limit group fire and rapid fire of many weapons either by excessive heat or by disableing the weapons (cooldown).
With a bar similar to the JJet fuel, it could be visible, but it would still be very hard to actually figure out how much you can and want to shoot, as you now need to watch two bars at the same time.
One thing to consider would be that it would be a nightmare to balance.
What kind of numbers would need to be choosen if you compare 6 ML vs 2 PPCs? Would these numbers then work to "limit" FLD alphas, or would it need to be exponential like ghost heat scale? The effect could be the answer to group all the things together under one big mechanic, but the downside would be the sheer imposibility to do it right without extra rules.
With most of the options analyzed and summed up now, what seems to give the best result for the least downsides?
Imho the ranking would look like this:
#1 Gauss/PPC energy drain
#2 Ghost heat, (could be even #1 IF it would be easier to understand)
#3 PPC desync by projectile speed adjustment + all AC burst
#4 All-PPC splash increase
The only weapon that retains its current efficiency with enforced chain-firing are LRMs. Period. You can argue about AMS all you want, 23 out of 24 mechs I see in every game do NOT have AMS, just because it is useless against any significant number or LRMs (>30). ago.
Thank you for making my point.
First, no one mounts AMS, because they are either not scared of LRMs at all (good players) or dumb (bad players).
Second, AMS works great against 30+ LRMs, IF there is more than 2 AMS in the area.
Third, if LRMs are FORCED to chain fire, you can't fire more than 20 at a time.
Whether people mount AMS or not does not invalidate the fact that chain fire would fix every current problem in the game.
The first one is too complicated, too confusing. Talk about a turn off to a new player. Plus it makes no logical sense.
The slowing of the projectile speed doesnt fit the lore where the weapon is supposed to travel at incredible speeds.
Here is my suggestion.
The current gauss mechanic was put in place to de-sync it from PPCs, since we are talking about this, it is clear that the mechanic did not work, so remove that mechanic.
Add in a simple timing limitation, you cannot fire a guass or a PPC within .5 seconds of firng the other. If you fire your gauss, you gotta wait .5 seconds to fire the PPC, or vice versa.. You can justify this with some sort of power-draw argument. This will absolutely de-sync them.
Keep in mind here guys that pinpoint damage is the only advantage that IS mechs have over Clan mechs which are currently better in every way, so be careful not to nerf it to o much.
And while you are tweaking the gauss, please do somethign to make the clan version worse than the IS version since this and pinpoint PPCs are the only advantage IS mechs have over Clan mechs.
So turn it off, and spread X range at X distance, more weapons, more spread. That way YOU CAN'T put 35, 50, 60 point hits on one panel. They are using RNG hitboxes and weapon values for pin point aimed weapons......duh. Out of LRM range, anything that wanted to hit back had to expose themselves to a pair of DWFs on coms calling targets. TTK about 1.5 seconds.
All that proves is that the game is really just a poorly created arena combat sim.
If this was any sort of real mechwarrior game, you'd have huge maps and dynamic objectives that make your strategy impossible.
And that could only happen in Skirmish on top of that.
And really? is that any different than 8 Dire Whales with PPC/Gauss rifles doing the same exact thing?
I mean really, your argument is dumb, and I welcome Large Lasers to PPFLD.
So turn it off, and spread X range at X distance, more weapons, more spread.
I would never hop out of my ERLL SCR or Kit Fox.
ERLL Ravens would thank you even more. They pummel your big fat*** assault mech from 600+ meters because the spread on 2 LL would not be enough to MISS your mech, and you return fire, and maybe hope to hit them with a weapon?
Here is an idea: Take an LBX 10, and try and hit your buddy in a side-profile spider from 200 meters or more... you might get an idea of how silly that sounds.
Tighten the spread enough to hit a light mech, and you are coring out Atlas CTs. Loosen the spread so you do not core Atlases, and you cannot hit light mechs.
Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:
That way YOU CAN'T put 35, 50, 60 point hits on one panel.
And you cannot hit light mechs to boot!
Yokaiko, on 30 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:
They are using RNG hitboxes and weapon values for pin point aimed weapons......duh.
Excuse me? Could you clarify your statement there? It seems blatantly false.
I don't use it, don't need it, if I die to LRM I'm usually legged and going to die to the four mechs I'm standing in the middle of anyway. Its not something I worry about ....and yes, that includes being NARC'd.
I have a trip ECM shitfox that basically invalidates a cLRM 40 mech, maybe 4-5 missiles get through. If you feel that you need it, rock it. I regard it as a waste of tonnage.
You think it's more difficult to close on a position guarded by a group of people using DOT weapons rather than PPFLD? In my experience, the opposite is true.
It's likely that's because currently players who gravitate toward the PPC+Gauss combo may be more skilled/have better aim than those who prefer large laser builds. When the meta shifts, those players will be just as savage with their clan ERLL boating.
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Livewyr, on 30 July 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:
This topic is locked
