1263 replies to this topic

[Zanathan]

Most of what I want to say has been covered by numerous others in the first few pages of this thread.

Why are we making things more complicated especially in light that players will just move onto other weapon combinations and you will then need to band-aid, I mean, fix this combos as well.

The right thing to do is take a step back and rearchitect the weapons system to ensure you have a mechanism that can be easily applied to all situations without having to band-aid them later on. Implement frameworks not products (this a phrase we throw around my work place a lot) as they provide the foundation on which you can apply changes easily and quickly without having to hard code fixes.

Please have a read of Homeless Bills idea (it's the 7th post in this thread) and while you may not have to implement it as described use it as a thought experiment to allow you folks at PGI to think outside the square. Remember you have finite time and resources so isn't it better to devise a solution that is bullet proof (no pun intended) so you don't have to constantly put in mechanics changes to address balance issues - and you know there is always going to be combinations that players come up with that you didn't anticipate.

[Daehoth]

Seth Davion, on 31 July 2014 - 01:12 AM, said:

It shocks me that there are so few skilled players in this game, all that is left are people who cry for a fix to supplement there own inadequateness,

Learn to play the game. I think in life people like this want things changed for them as they do not have the effort to change anything for themselves. Because of people, like most of those I this thread, MechWarrior Online will die and the true fans will be the ones left for another decade without a MechWarrior title. I can say I hate this culture its so pathetic and this kind of weakness disgust me.

YOU CAN ALL USE PPC & GAUSS THEY ARE AVAILLBE TO ALL AND YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE THEY ARE EXCLUSIVE, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS SKILL NOT THE F****** WEAPON, LEAVE IT ALONE FOR THE FIRST TIME THE BALLANCE IS OK...............................................

People like me pay for this game stop listening to those who do not.

That's what I've been saying all along too Seth. None of this is exclusive!! It's fair game for EVERYONE. It's up to an individual's creativity and skill level to get good at something.

Oh by the way, I'm not one of the ones who use the PPC/Gauss Combo..In fact, I'll say it here, I'm terrible at using the PPCs. They don't appeal to me at all. I was also pretty bad at using the gauss with its charge time now. But you know what, I started using it more and more and pretty soon, I actually got pretty alright with it, not great, but I think I'm competent with the gauss now. I still don't use the PPC though. And all this while, hey I was still regularly getting 1000dmg battles without PPC/Gauss Combos... I did not whine that others were using it, I did not think they were superior or overpowering to me within matches. In fact, I adapted my strategy and piloting around it, I used the terrain more to my advantage to prevent my demise at the hands of a skilled and crafty PPC/Gauss pilot when I needed to. I salute the ones who can use PPC/Gauss combos, it suits their playing style it doesn't suit me, I accept that, and I'm not bothered with it at all. I'll just have to customize my mech to suit my style and individual competency. And that's what this game is ALL about. It's the ESSENCE of what this game is all about.

I mean....when a country goes to war with another, is it conceivable that country A goes and tells country B..."hey hey...your tanks and air force are TOO superior to ours...it's not fair. You have to tone it down or not use them at all.. give yourself a handicap so we can be on more equal footing...." And country B goes..."sure thing buddy." NO! It's RIDICULOUS!

This is a bloody WAR game! There is no fair!! Some equipment, some mechs, some vehicles, some tactics, some strategies are just going to be better than others. Stop all your freaking whining and deal with it! And PGI...stop constantly trying balance every damn little thing.

News flash PGI.....you can't please EVERYBODY....but don't embark on pure folly or attempt something that will just PISS OFF EVERYBODY.

Edited by Daehoth, 31 July 2014 - 02:08 AM.

[Seth Stin Exoría]

As I have said what is available to some is available to all, do not vastly simplify the game. Only new players will benefit in the short term.

Also I have to say if you do nerf 2 ppc + gauss you better stop me in my dire wolf, 3 large, Targeting Com MK7, 2 gauss 60 alpha pinpoint or what about my triple gauss ppc monster 1400 damage matches and I mean a lot of them. or most of my other mechs that I do huge damage In all the time, it is not the weapons its the player.

There will always be an alternative players like me find one or make one up.

This is coming from someone who has a 2.60 KDR

[HRR Mary]

I was just wondering about reinstalling to play a few games and see the eventual progresses.

Read that parody of a balance post.

Won't reinstall.

Gg Paul, you are truly the funniest person around here, still not understanding your own game after all this time.

BTW, if anyone doesn't remember : We told you so : http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Daehoth]

Seth Davion, on 31 July 2014 - 01:52 AM, said:

As I have said what is available to some is available to all, do not vastly simplify the game. Only new players will benefit in the short term.

Also I have to say if you do nerf 2 ppc + gauss you better stop me in my dire wolf, 3 large, Targeting Com MK7, 2 gauss 60 alpha pinpoint or what about my triple gauss ppc monster 1400 damage matches and I mean a lot of them. or most of my other mechs that I do huge damage In all the time, it is not the weapons its the player.

There will always be an alternative players like me find one or make one up.

This is coming from someone who has a 2.60 KDR

ooh, 2.6 KDR...rock on bro.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Just make it where pilots cannot fire both a PPC and a GR or AC10 or 20....All those weapons should be solo fired....ends the PPFLD combined together on those guns...

And yes, the GR should have it's speed slowed, its at like 2000 now? Yeah, that can drop to like 1000 or 1200 or something. PPCs should drop to maybe 1000 as well...but 750 and 850? As if they arent annoying enough to lead targets with already...

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 31 July 2014 - 02:11 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

One thing I do find interesting is that this game has been running for years now, been long out of Beta, and in all that time, through all the time spent in Closed and Open Beta play, both of these weapons were around. Yet, only -now- are they a problem that requires a Dev intervention?

Why is that? Why have they, as all direct-fire weapons except the LBX, been perfectly acceptable all this time, yet suddenly we -have- to do something about them? What change to each weapon has suddenly made them overpowered to the point they are no longer as weak as they were? Did the Charge Mechanic added to the Gauss Rifle boost effectiveness or ease-of-use beyond the norm for a weapon of this size and type? Did the addition of Ghost Heat somehow make the PPC/ERPPC way too dangerous and able to be used too freely?

It seems to me that something doesn't make sense here. And whatever it is to have caused the problem to suddenly -be- a problem is where the Devs need to concentrate, not on weapons that have been fine until something other than themselves changed.

[Randall Flagg]

del.

Edited by SKINLESS, 17 September 2014 - 02:11 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Jakob Knight, on 31 July 2014 - 02:15 AM, said:

One thing I do find interesting is that this game has been running for years now, been long out of Beta, and in all that time, through all the time spent in Closed and Open Beta play, both of these weapons were around. Yet, only -now- are they a problem that requires a Dev intervention?

Why is that? Why have they, as all direct-fire weapons except the LBX, been perfectly acceptable all this time, yet suddenly we -have- to do something about them? What change to each weapon has suddenly made them overpowered to the point they are no longer as weak as they were? Did the Charge Mechanic added to the Gauss Rifle boost effectiveness or ease-of-use beyond the norm for a weapon of this size and type? Did the addition of Ghost Heat somehow make the PPC/ERPPC way too dangerous and able to be used too freely?

It seems to me that something doesn't make sense here. And whatever it is to have caused the problem to suddenly -be- a problem is where the Devs need to concentrate, not on weapons that have been fine until something other than themselves changed.

Prolly cuz its really damn boring to be 1 shot in an assault mech by some clown boating as many PPC and GRs as he can...

Idk, it just seems boring 1 shotting everything, and I know it gets old on the reciveing end...

[Larzous]

I don't post much, but I honestly can't listen to this. I listen to NGNG podcast every week and try to stay up on Command Chair posts when I can but I usually have no thing to say, however this is really the most lame thing I have heard after Ghost Heat.

Today you have ONE mech Direwhale that is running this 2guass/2c-erppc build... well, mostly... So because of one mech you want to ruin a mechanic for other mechs. I honestly thought you wanted people to use SKILL, and part of "skill" is creating the flavor of the week meta build until you at PGI decide to make another nerf because somebody got creative.

If its not this build it will just be 1 gauss, 2ppc, 2LL or 2 gauss/3ERLL -- Granted this reduces that "pinpoint" alpha you are trying to avoid however what about player tactics, cover.

The speed of the PPC could be changes but your talking about basically a plasma bolt. As far as your "charge" concept. The cool down almost is a "charge" mechanic, just like its a reload time for missiles, AC, and so forth ( if your trying for any form of realism to physics).

I see what your trying to do by eliminating things but your concept of "charging" mechanic is flawed. What if I have 3/4 C-ER-PPCs like the Warhawk-Prime (I believe) -- Are you going to limit this to 2 PPC's and then 2 PPCs .5 seconds later because of "charging"? Because if not then your logic of "your mech can only charge so many weapons" is flawed, and then this would have to be applied to ALL energy weapons based on the engine size of the mech and how much energy that engine rating can produce. -- But this requires a re-working of something that isn't lore based at all, and would require an entire re-work of core came mechanics.

If anything I would rather the PPC speed be lowered. However, from a physics point of view, it wouldn't be able to travel as far now and either you would have to nerf the distance of this weapon. If not your basically saying this cohesive ball of energy can just go forever. Why would a high energy particle weapon fire something as slow as 750M compared to a railgun projectile? Slowing it some may be fair, but 750m/s is way too slow.. 1000-1200 seems more reasonable if you have to change it at all.

-=-=-

I would seriously recommending looking at other options as weapon nerfts shouldn't be nerfed because of a single build that gets popular. I mean, its not like we can have 6 assaults dropping on a map with the same build anymore like previously. The 3 assault limit is still good. On occasion you get more than 3 assaults due to group matching to get games tossed in, but I honestly haven't really seen this build that much.

Please think before you implement something like this again. All I continue to see is complains of "nerf nerf nerf" and in doing so we are punished for our min/maxing creativity within the core rules of the game. -- Eventually weapons don't get used, because they are not worth it as they are more hinderances to a build for DPS than helping. The game is about fun, tactics and skill, and enjoyment.

[Demos]

Horrible idea.
First suggestion is too complex --> = Ghost Heat 2
(ER)PPC velocity reduction kills a long-rang weapon.

Best idea would be to fix convergence.

As this is apparently too complicated (sigh), just introduce splash damage for all PPCs.
(ER)PPC / IS: 5.0 plus 2 * 2.5 splash in adjacent sections
ERPPC / Clan: 5.0 plus 2 * 5.0 splash in adjacent sections

Than the whining about "OP" clan ERPPCs should stop also.

[MangoBogadog]

LegoPirate, on 29 July 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

and suddenly, everyone goes back to dual gauss.

this is completely missing the point. just up heat or lower damage on ppcs. how hard is it to realize that? enough with the complicated game mechanics.

This

[Jakob Knight]

LordKnightFandragon, on 31 July 2014 - 02:18 AM, said:

Prolly cuz its really damn boring to be 1 shot in an assault mech by some clown boating as many PPC and GRs as he can...

Idk, it just seems boring 1 shotting everything, and I know it gets old on the reciveing end...

Something being 'boring' is never a reason to change a whole game, since what is boring to one person isn't to another. I find brawling incredibly stupid and boring....does that mean the game should be changed to eliminate it so I don't have to deal with it? I find people chatting and bragging in a game boring....should the chat system be removed because of that?

More to the point, there have always been builds that can allow an Assault mech to kill in one shot (and it's usually lighter mech pilots or those who have reduced their armor to put even more weapons or speed on their mech who complain about it...when they shouldn't be engaging such a mech in the first place), and such builds have never required a specific weapons combination to install a system to remove it from play (and let's be honest here, this is a move by the Devs to remove a build by Players that is successful solely because it -is- successful even though it is completely within both the mechanics and spirit of the game). Indeed, it is a valid point that Assault mechs -should- be able to kill another mech in one shot, as this was their intended role in the game. They don't have the speed to do anything but lay down a devastating amount of firepower, so why shouldn't that firepower -be- devastating?

Rather than make changes to the specific cause of the problem (the introduction of mech capable of mounting such weapons in this combination), the Devs are going after only the weapons themselves. This will lead to strikes against -all- users of those weapons, not the root cause (the mech causing the problem).

I just find it rather hypocritical that weapons that have been considered 'working as intended' through the entire life of the game, including the Closed and Open Betas that are fully intended to catch just this sort of thing, are suddenly considered broken well after the game has been released as a finished product and after no beneficial changes to themselves.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 31 July 2014 - 02:48 AM.

[Aluminumfoiled]

Back when all this started a simple no would have done wonders.

6 PPC Stalker. Nope.
6 ERLlas. Nope.

Can't be done. Why not? Reactor cannot handle the spike in demand. Mount energy feeds can't carry the load. It's Tuesday. Honestly who thinks a 6 PPC loadout should be viable. This could have been carried over to all weapons.

More than 18 SRMs. Nope. 40 LRMs etc. (Numbers for display only.) PPCs are only good in groups with more PPCs or ballistics now. Something like the Panther is worthless. FLD and boating can be adjusted with no arcane mechanics. Easier to remember no more than 18 SRMs or 6 MLlas than ghost heat strangeness. Quirks to make any needed changes.

How about I want to fire 2 ERPPCs with 2 Gauss? Nope. You can say no or don't permit them on together on a build (extreme). Don't allow them to be grouped or fired together or make the load invalid. 6 PPC should have been invalid.

Just say no to derp. Who didn't know the Dire was going to be an issue?

[Larzous]

Demos, on 31 July 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

Than the whining about "OP" clan ERPPCs should stop also.

Actually its because 50+10 Alpha is higher than the '40' point alpha they have been attempting to balance the game to.

Then again -- taking two arty hits from one arty is 35 points (spashing and stuff) a hit for 70 damage... Sooo..

-=-=-

I do like that C-ERPPC slash damage, kind of need honestly. Maybe they could play with the splash damage a bit more? and move it to IS weapons too perhaps?

[Larzous]

MicroVent, on 31 July 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

Can't be done. Why not? Reactor cannot handle the spike in demand. Mount energy feeds can't carry the load. It's Tuesday. Honestly who thinks a 6 PPC loadout should be viable. This could have been carried over to all weapons.

Just say no to derp. Who didn't know the Dire was going to be an issue?

1) Because they wanted "ghost heat" instead of saying no to your build..... which would have been the logical choice originally.

2) They should -- but don't, they rather make complicated systems -- and I don't think PGI think like min/maxers

[EGG]

Well, to add my 2 cents to this megalith, not even sure if anyone's still reading at this point.

We have an ongoing problem with large weaponry getting boated, specifically PPC/Gauss, PPC/whatever, often with Jump-Jets.

We've tried nerfing individual chassis (K2, DS), but inevitably something else comes along. We've tried nerfing jump-jets, but generally it just breaks JJ's. We've tried fiddling with ballistic behaviour, ie range and speed, but players usually compensate around this. And we've tried slapping artificial mechanics onto particular weapons groupings, ie ghost heat, 2-GR cap, GR charge, and now GR/PPC cap. Inevitably some new combo pops out of the woodwork.

My ideal resolution would be to solve it through introducing believable, physics-based game mechanics which affect projectiles:
- ballistic drop-off (which we have)
- mech movement vectors adding to weapon trajectories (which I think we have but never notice)
- wind
- recoil when firing (particularly when in the air on jump-jets)
- impulse when hit in the air on jump-jets
- changed torso-twist/arm mechanics when in the air (what is your torso leveraging against when you're 20m up? Your legs should be moving in the other direction)

Considering the size of the problem the game however, you would need probably another 20 factors on top of these before you could start affecting things like 2GR/2PPC dire whales. And there would probably be collateral LRM/light/brawler implications everywhere.

However, you are actually adding value to the game when you add the above physics factors in. When people play DayZ, they just accept the fact that you have to eat or you will eventually "starve to death". Because you know, it happens in real life. If instead DayZ's mechanic entailed the player randomly contracting "magical town disease" where they need to go into a town for 20 mins every day and gaze at their navel or otherwise die, players would be less accepting of this ****. Players don't really like mechanics that exist for no reason other than to piss them off.

So anyway, the options used so far are semi-unbelievable game mechanics like ghost heat, GR charge and "can't fire 3 GR's". 2GR/2PPC lockout will just be another one of these.

<========= Waffle over, the other solution =============>

Another option is as a poster 20 pages back suggested: GR and PPC use a lot of energy (probably), so start tying this back to the Fusion engine. I'm not going to go into a full solution, as it would probably take half a day of whiteboarding.

Give the player an "energy bar". The bigger the engine, the more energy this thing has. Little lasers like SL, ML and normal JJ use will barely affect this bar. Maybe a little so the player knows it's there, but not so much that it would affect non-problematic gameplay styles.

However make GR + PPC the big energy drainers, when they start draining this thing, it affects;
- mech speed
- jump jet recharge rates
- module/ECM/zoom usage, ie systems run out of power and ECM/modules shut down
- maybe heat dissipation, who knows

When your Fusion is re-charging this thing, you're now a neutrino sensor's (was that what they were in the books?) dream.
- You're detectable via LoS at 900m instead of 800m
- red dorito hangs around for an extra second when the enemy lose LoS
- you can pop out of your friendly ECM cloud
- etc

Anyway, this solution is not straight from the TRO's and will meet the usual resistance in that sense. However BT only resolves the problem we currently have via BV and dice rolls, neither of which are going to happen.

Oh on the plus side, it means ghost heat can be gotten rid of.

[DrSlamastika]

AGAIN DONT MESS WITH PPC AND GAUSS GUN, THEY ARE PERFECT RIGHT NOW !!!!!!!

[H Seldon]

I'd rather see the first option than slowing down PPCs. I don't play meta builds and those builds that do use PPCs only would be hit hard. PPCs by themselves are in a pretty good spot.

[TechKiller]

As for me, I don't like this idea about restrictions ppc&gauss at all. All such kind of restrictions make game worse and complicated. By that, you guys are loosing your active players. My friends dont like such complicated methods. Gauss&PPC's are good balanced now. Don't spoil them.

Edited by TechKiller, 31 July 2014 - 05:19 AM.