1263 replies to this topic

[Blacksoul1987]

I really hate the 2gauss 2ppc direwolf but I don't think either of these will be good for the game in its current state.

1. this options narrows the meta by removing the one long range build that is competitive with 2ppc 2ac.
2. this option is just disgusting I will stop using ppc's most likely if a speed nerf that huge goes through.

if you are going to tackle alphas you can't be selective about it, you need to tackle it across the board.

otherwise simply increase cooldown on all ppc's and gauss. Reducing ppc dps would put the game in a good state I believe.

Edited by Blacksoul1987, 30 July 2014 - 10:21 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khan Hallis, on 30 July 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Bottom line is the designers are going to do what they feel they need to do. Ultimately satisfying the "gamers" of the community.

Ideas about speed reduction for Particles is sound, and so is the lock downs due to energy drains on the power systems and reactor. Anyone saying you've "lost" range due to reduced speed has lost sight of what the difference is between range and speed. They are not the same thing.
ERPPC's and standard PPC's should have same speed profile since they are the same type of weapon, only real difference is the extra range that an ERPPC has, which is also the reason for increased heat production in order to achieve that additional range.

But that is too complex a thought process for "gamers" since it is counter to what they WANT.

Imagine hitting something with an AC20 at 800 meters. So its a little faster, but the point is, all the target has to do is make a course correction and the shot misses. Maybe you missed that in your complex thought process because it is a counter to what you WANT? Even at present speeds lights can turn right and a shot that would have hit is now off target.

[BoloJoe]

Don't reduce the speed of the PPC!

I agree with the mech having power limitations that prevents firing weapon combos - fire ppcs delays charging gauss/charging gauss limits ppc firing OK.

But nerfing all long range energy/ballistic weapons will leave only the lrm option - which currently makes playing the solo queu boring. This has both teams have a lrm duel for 15 minutes , and trying to advance usually leads to a quick death.

[Wintersdark]

Yeah, screw specific suggestions.

Screw both the suggested "fixes", too, as they are treating the symptom, not the disease.

We have an endless succession of complex, hard-to-grok, opaque mechanics all built to break "problem builds"... but those problem builds are always* extreme PPFLD builds.

We don't need ghost heat, we don't need firing limits, we need PPFLD addressed.

Please, please think real hard about this. There are LOTS of workable solutions presented:

Reticule bloom based on movement/action/situation (as I and others have suggested); Recoil (see Li Song's suggestions); others, too. I don't even really care what is done anymore.

But the reality is, nerfing individual builds just isn't working. You add new mechs, new problem builds arise, and you quash each in turn with a new, complicated mechanic. The real problem with this approach is that for every problem build you break, you mangle half a dozen perfectly legitimate, non-problem builds. This pushes ever more people into "meta builds" (whatever they may be at a given moment) just because there are fewer and fewer reasonable options.

Worse, the new player experience suffers more each time because there is an ever growing labyrinth of complex game mechanics to consider when making a build, non of which are ever explained or clear to the new (or just non-technical) player.

---

* Except the old splatcat, which was never a particularly good build but exploited bugged SRM Splash mechanics to do absurd damage, and could exploit the old wierd SRM pathing to push it into relatively pinpoint damage. This was entirely a problem build due to bugs, however, not the weapons or normal game mechanics.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 29 July 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

Try telling a light pilot they have to slow down to shoot accurately.

I'll also note - a reticule bloom system as I suggested helps lights. Sure, they need to slow down a little from max speed for accurate long range fire, but it also means that opposing mechs who are moving at high speeds (for them!!), high heat, etc have a small degree of spread in their weapons fire. The light with a small amount of spread still easily hits an assault, the assault with a small degree of spread is going to struggle to hit a light, even one that's sitting still... so if they want to have a good chance of hitting the light, they need to slow down too, and/or run at lower heat, etc.

This vastly increases the skill cap in the game - as a light pilot, do you slow a bit for accuracy, or keep your speed and be even harder to hit? Does the assault/heavy pilot hold his fire some to bring his heat down, slow down, etc, to get a more accurate shot against said light?

Reticule bloom really helps Lights and Mediums.

[Kamikaze uy]

Yokaiko, on 29 July 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

...heh even more terrible ideas than ghost heat.

For something that isn't that big of a deal. Not surprising.

Is it that bad? really? I dont think so. Big mechs with many BIG weapons are meant to be scary.
I dont even own a DireWolf but it ok to get smoked if u stayed in fron of it. PPC -gauss is a valid option, dont think its that big of a deal, hell, I´d even say missiles are more powerfull if u hury me up.


STOP THE NERFING PLEASE

[Marmon Rzohr]

Honestly, lower projectile speed is the better idea. The only potential flaws with it are:
1) 750 m/s really is too low, IMHO. 1000 maybe ?
2) It won't solve the issue of Dire Wolves alphaing people in the face for 50 damage - maybe that can be solved with a chassis quirk ? It will be a lesser problem with less range.

The restricted firing solution could work if there was some way to make it clearly visible on the UI, I guess.

Even better is the idea to implement Ghost heat based on alpha damage. It should solve most of the problems with an existing system. (not my idea, just repeating a smart suggestion).

[Damocles69]

Nerf ppcs or desyc them form gauss and good players will just migrate back to 2xgauss. I mean really, how hard is it to see that the underlying balance issue with this Game is pin point damage? Putting 30+ DMG on a single compnet at rage will always be the superior start unless this is addressed.

How dose Paul, Balance God not see this?

Edited by Damocles69, 30 July 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Marmon Rzohr, on 30 July 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Honestly, lower projectile speed is the better idea. The only potential flaws with it are:
1) 750 m/s really is too low, IMHO. 1000 maybe ?
2) It won't solve the issue of Dire Wolves alphaing people in the face for 50 damage - maybe that can be solved with a chassis quirk ? It will be a lesser problem with less range.

The restricted firing solution could work if there was some way to make it clearly visible on the UI, I guess.

Even better is the idea to implement Ghost heat based on alpha damage. It should solve most of the problems with an existing system. (not my idea, just repeating a smart suggestion).

Yeah, 90+ alphas are still possible without even using PPCs.

[S3dition]

Livewyr, on 30 July 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Now that you have quantified it, I can make my argument clearer.



It mattered little, because:
What is Good accuracy for hitting an assault is piss poor for hitting a light.
What is Good accuracy for hitting a light is near perfect for hitting an assault.



Now that we have a quantity, i can demonstrate.
1: If we move much closer to the atlas (like say the range of an AC20) you are picking out a component. (Cut that Atlas body spread down a third of Atlas body spread at 270)
2: With that much spread, you are looking at a 1/3 or 1/4 chance of hitting the spider at 650m, even if it is sitting perfectly still.

Atlas would be generally hosed at range. Spider would closer to immune, even while sitting still.



And a 33% chance of hitting a spider at all.



How is it going to be remotely close to hitting light mechs?



Components are different sizes in this game.



For the light mech.

You seem to have some issue with thinking that a spider should be just as easy to hit as an atlas. This is not the case. A light mech should be harder to hit regardless of the circumstances. This is not an issue. What is an issue is that a spider can move at 140kph over rolling hills while jump jetting with absolute precision in their shots.

The notion that a target should not be easier to hit as you get closer is rubbish, and you know it. That's how it should work. Brawlers sacrifice long range anonymity for greater accuracy. They are either rewarded with a better chance to hit a specific component or torn to pieces by the enemy team. We call this balance. What is not balanced, and what is the center of discussion, is the ability to fire a large number of medium to long range weapons and hit the same component at a range that the weapon was never even designed to work at.

Cone of fire has worked well in dozens (if not hundreds) of game sand suffers from none of the issues you are trying to apply to it. It's a far more accurate interpretation of variances in where you aim and where you hit.

Yes, light mechs will have a slight advantage due to size - THEY SHOULD. Use lasers and guided missiles.
Light mechs will have a severe disadvantage when moving very fast and using jump jets - THEY SHOULD. Long range weapons are meant to aim and shoot, not run and gun.

[Cavendish]

Just put a damn charge mechanic on the PPC then people can chose if they want to charge up the PPC or the Gauss but cant do both. Would actually make the player to, sort of, have to make a choise of energy or ballistics for the main oooomph.


* But, that will only lead to 2 PPC/AC10 meta! Sure, but that wont get you sniped from 1000m out, it would require people to close in to deliver it with full damage. Close in = gives more counters. AC10s, if my smurfy-fu is not messed up, has a range of 450 meters for optimal preformance, it is also slower then the PPC.

* Makes the game more noobish! Um ok, because the current "program mousebutton to hold down gauss key 1 sec then combo release of it with firing 1+2 for the PPCs" is the pinacle of skill... give me a break. I will admit that it takes a baby-step up from pressing "Fire LRM at locked target" (tho less then using LRMs in a tacticaly good way) but that really dont say much.

What most people seem to want to get away from is being cored/dead from some joker jumping up and down at 1000m, which I find myself sympathetic to personaly. Pin-point accuracy and projectiles hitting at the same time is the problem (if you consider it a problem) and adding yet another layer of over-complicated can-fire-A+B-but-not-A+A+B-at-the-same-time system that the newer or casual players need to dig up from the depths of the forum to understand is not the way to go.

[S3dition]

Wintersdark, on 30 July 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

I'll also note - a reticule bloom system as I suggested helps lights. Sure, they need to slow down a little from max speed for accurate long range fire, but it also means that opposing mechs who are moving at high speeds (for them!!), high heat, etc have a small degree of spread in their weapons fire. The light with a small amount of spread still easily hits an assault, the assault with a small degree of spread is going to struggle to hit a light, even one that's sitting still... so if they want to have a good chance of hitting the light, they need to slow down too, and/or run at lower heat, etc.

This vastly increases the skill cap in the game - as a light pilot, do you slow a bit for accuracy, or keep your speed and be even harder to hit? Does the assault/heavy pilot hold his fire some to bring his heat down, slow down, etc, to get a more accurate shot against said light?

Reticule bloom really helps Lights and Mediums.

How do you know? Can you point out the exact reference to the numbers in MWO where lights have to slow down "only a little?" Oh, wait, those mechanics aren't in, so we can make them inaccurate starting at 20kph if necessary. Ask people who play lights if 20kph is slowing down "just a little".

You can't make calls based on perceived numbers. They can be anything that PGI makes them.

[Mister Blastman]

I'm waiting for someone to do something brilliant... Like make 'mechs out of voxels allowing us to strip away armor, pixel by pixel. Those AC 20s would be useful for putting a crater in a spot, and then pick away at it with other weapons.

Oh, hey, that'd be too realistic! But it'd be really 'effing cool and it would reward pure skill.

Think it can't be done? Think again! It already has! Give it a whirl...

http://voxelstein3d.sourceforge.net/



It would fix pinpoint damage... too.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 30 July 2014 - 11:00 AM.

[Semper Fi]

First off, reticle bloom and accuracy is the answer. Two mechs standing sill can be as precise as possible including shooting someone in the eye.
Movement of any kind on shooter or target makes the reticle bigger and spreads the damage. (like laser) and depletes accuracy. (Lucky shots still welcomed)

Since this will not happen I suggest the following.

PPC/ERPPC speeds slow down as they move away from the mech. So, at 350m the bolt of lightning is moving 1200 m/s at 500m 950m/s at 800m 650 and so forth.

Gauss: Same speed, however one at a time can be fired due to draw on mech resources.
PPC: One can be fired if with Gauss (different power sources being used from engine), two can be fired if PPC's are linked. 3 cannot due to resources.
This keeps alpha to 30 for combo of PPC/Gauss, 30 with PPC. (Choice is there).
Also means ACs will come back in a hurry. However same concept can be used.

So now you are still effective against lights at short range, and the sniping gets harder/easier based on point of view. Lights might actually have to be scouts and what nots again instead of snipers.

Still think it should be reticle bloom. This would follow current FPS games that do the same thing.

Semper Fi.

[Koniving]

So Paul's idea, convoluted (though sense-making as it is)...fixes PPC and Gauss.
What about ER PPC and Gauss?
How about Clan ER PPC and Clan Gauss?
How about PPC and AC/5? PPC and AC/10? PPC and AC/20?

...How about we just get 30 threshold and be done with it? At least then I know that with 15 DHS, a player would have to wait 7.5 seconds to cool off completely to zero after firing Twin PPC + AC/5 or Twin PPC + Gauss Rifle on Forest Colony. That's without jumping. With jumping longer than 10 seconds.
And if they fired in 4 seconds of the first shot, they'd be at 93.33% heat without moving. And if they were jumping, overheat and shutdown with damage.

Problem solved. Ghost heat removed on all non-AC weapons until all ACs are burst fire, then ghost heat can be removed from them too. Not only that but it's easy and simplies the math and makes any mech with less than a 250 engine viable gain (because the threshold and cooling abilities of the exact same number of heatsinks will not change...where currently they change and get progressively worse with the smaller your engine is below 250).

[Carl Avery]

Hmm. Reducing the PPC speed would completely screw the classic triple-PPC Awesome. Any build with PPCs but no ballistics is already a joke to the competitive crowd; lowering the PPC projectile speed just makes this problem worse. PPCs are only overly powerful when combined with heavy ballistics. So I can't favor the PPC travel speed reduction, because it'd screw the Awesome even more than the poor thing already is.

On the other hand, the power draw mechanic doesn't seem to have any effect on the 2x PPC + 2x AC build, which is still excessively powerful compared to brawler builds & balanced builds. So I can't favor the power draw mechanic, because it leaves a full half of the problem intact.

I tend to lean more towards suggestions for removing PPFLD altogether (arm bob, mechlab-set fixed convergence, etc.), but I don't think Mr. Inouye is much interested in examining these ideas.

Edited by Carl Avery, 30 July 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Cavendish, on 30 July 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Just put a damn charge mechanic on the PPC then people can chose if they want to charge up the PPC or the Gauss but cant do both. Would actually make the player to, sort of, have to make a choise of energy or ballistics for the main oooomph.


* But, that will only lead to 2 PPC/AC10 meta! Sure, but that wont get you sniped from 1000m out, it would require people to close in to deliver it with full damage. Close in = gives more counters. AC10s, if my smurfy-fu is not messed up, has a range of 450 meters for optimal preformance, it is also slower then the PPC.

* Makes the game more noobish! Um ok, because the current "program mousebutton to hold down gauss key 1 sec then combo release of it with firing 1+2 for the PPCs" is the pinacle of skill... give me a break. I will admit that it takes a baby-step up from pressing "Fire LRM at locked target" (tho less then using LRMs in a tacticaly good way) but that really dont say much.

What most people seem to want to get away from is being cored/dead from some joker jumping up and down at 1000m, which I find myself sympathetic to personaly. Pin-point accuracy and projectiles hitting at the same time is the problem (if you consider it a problem) and adding yet another layer of over-complicated can-fire-A+B-but-not-A+A+B-at-the-same-time system that the newer or casual players need to dig up from the depths of the forum to understand is not the way to go.

No one programs mouse buttons. If they do they are bad. Hitting the same component of a moving target at 800m takes substantially more skill then LRMing ever will, fyi.

[Clint Steel]

Why not just add an "energy bar" to go along with heat? At least it wouldn't be as convoluted and confusing as the suggested ideas.

I do think ER/PPCs could use a nerf (really isn't the issue always ER/PPCs?) but not sure more weird hidden mechanics are the answer.

Splash damage (maybe 5 pinpoint 5 spread to surrounding areas) would be my choice, and make Clan PPCs balanced with IS (more heat, or same damage as IS).

[Cavendish]

Gas Guzzler, on 30 July 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

No one programs mouse buttons. If they do they are bad. Hitting the same component of a moving target at 800m takes substantially more skill then LRMing ever will, fyi.

Not my experience, a LOT of people use macros, and they do well with them. Tons of damage, tons of kills. Yes even in comp teams.

Hitting the same component, with weapons that are linked and hits at the same time, at the same spot is not skill, its a given.

[Solahma]

Firstly, I am completely against any restrictions.

But if we HAD to choose, I'd be okay with testing the firing mechanic in a PTS to at least see how it goes.

however, please, Please, PLEASE don't hurt every other PPC build in the game to simply address a single combination of weapons. It would effect every mech that carries PPCs. I would be more interested in a greater spread effect LONG before touching the velocities again. IMO a speed reduction is a HORRIBLE idea. UNLESS, the speed was ONLY reduced when combining with Gauss, which would work similar to your new firing mechanism that is currently not activated. Reducing stand alone PPCs though? NOPE

Plus, reducing PPC speed just syncs it with other ballistics such as the AC10 for Innersphere mechs. The meta would simply shift back to 2PPC+AC10, there is no avoiding it.

Edited by Solahma, 30 July 2014 - 11:27 AM.