1263 replies to this topic

[Valatar]

Both of those ideas are dumb. The first adds needless undocumented and unintuitive complexity to a system already rife with bad, unintuitive systems. The second involves slowing down a lightning bolt. Which should be moving several hundred miles per second.

So here, let me fix your game for you:

ADD RECOIL.

Problem solved. Make the reticule buck when firing projectile weapons and you'll never have to worry about pinpoint strikes from alpha firing autocannons, gauss rifles, PPCs, or missile launchers again. And since lasers have a DoT component, having them retain their perfect accuracy without recoil isn't a big issue, because any pilot who just stands there like an idiot while someone cores them with lasers deserves it.

[Jabilo]

Ok my 2 cents.

First of all I do not really see a huge problem with the gauss / PPC combo. If I get a arm ripped off in one shot it is pretty much my own fault for standing still in front of a Dire Whale. But anyway...

Both ideas are terrible and we do not need any more complicated mechanics.

Start by adding 1 second to the recycle time of:

Gauss
PPC's
Large and ER Large lasers

Clan and IS

How does this reduce long range pin point large alphas?

It doesn't.

So how does it help?

Long range weapons are as effective at short range as long. They can be used in configurations which are devastating at short range. There is little incentive to take short range weapons or mixed load outs.

By allowing short range weapons to have a higher dps at short range, this will allow brawlers to have the advantage once they manage to close the distance.

Once people realise this and capitalise on the fact we will see people punished for focusing only on abusive long range builds.

However, people will still have the tactical choice.

One second not enough? Test it for a month and make it 2! Still not working, back to the drawing board then!

Keep it simple! Make small balance changes to weapon stats and monitor the meta and the tactics of top players. Be calm and find game balance in a logical fashion. Listen to players, consult with top teams, make better use of the PTR...

Crazy Frankenstein emergency measures are not needed.

In fact we would not even have this problem if we had proper role warfare. The problem is only here because there is no meaningful use for lights and everyone is taking heavys and assaults with min max dps builds.

Hell, just give a C Bill bonus for taking the lowest represented mech in the queue and you will probably solve the problem without changing a single weapon!

TLDR - both options are insane.

Edited by Jabilo, 30 July 2014 - 11:31 AM.

[Skelos]

do not change anything. the game has a balance of arms (PC + Gaus against LRM + ER LL for long range, AC20 + ML against SRM in melee).

[MFZ]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 29 July 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors!

Please let us know which of Paul's ideas to balance PPC+Gauss you would prefer to see in-game!

If you want to nerf the combination, nerf the combination only, i.e. use the charging / limited energy system.
With nerfing a single weapon from the combo you nerf all other uses of the single weapon outside of the combo as well!

[kapusta11]

Why do I even care about this change? I haven't been playing for 2 months already. PGI, you are free to rot.

[Gas Guzzler]

Cavendish, on 30 July 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

Not my experience, a LOT of people use macros, and they do well with them. Tons of damage, tons of kills. Yes even in comp teams.

Hitting the same component, with weapons that are linked and hits at the same time, at the same spot is not skill, its a given.

That's odd, most (all but one) of the people I play with just time it manually. And frankly, I have no idea what you are talking about, having to lead targets, or accounting for a Victor popping his jets to hop up and down and still trying to hit that little Side Torso, or a mech rapidly twisting its torso, is very difficult. A lot can happen in the time it takes a PPC to reach is target, gauss is a bit faster sure, which brings me to my next point. At long range they actually don't hit at the same time. If you get popped from 800 m by 2 ppcs and gauss and it all hits one component, you weren't moving. Shame on you!

Edit: I just realized a that you may have misunderstood. Hitting the same component with all 3 weapons is not what takes the skill. What takes the skill is saying "I want to hit the Right Torso of that Victor until it dies" from 800m and hitting that component repeatedly.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 30 July 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[DocBach]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 30 July 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

You actually played less than 2 weeks ago and have played pretty consistently over the past two months. I appreciate that you may not like these changes, but we'd ask that you leave us your honest and constructive feedback rather than directed insults.

ZING!

[defcon won]

I like the idea of energy use being a factor. I wish that could be incorporated with all weapons.
Weapons, ECM, use of energy for speed, BAP...there should be a limited amount of energy based on the engine a mech has, and weapons and components all expend a certain amount of energy. Fire all at once and shut down (similar to overheating) for a longer and longer period of time, depending on how badly you taxed your energy reserve (without being able to go over it).

Another option to combat the pop tart snipers:
Enable knock downs.
Firing anything other than MG's or lasers while in the air results in the mech suffering recoil and landing flat on its back---taking damage to the rear torsos and going through the time it takes to get upright again.

[MoonUnitBeta]

• Ghost heat (heat sink overload)
  
• Gauss/PPC desync (mech design flaw in charging limitations)

Those should definitely be explained as a portion of an advanced tutorial… Give it some lore/fiction and then explain its mechanics to new players.
Otherwise GG to all the new players…

But by the time the tutorials come out, every potential new player has already come and gone. Some new players look on youtube and seek help, but really that’s only if they’re interested in the game. Most aren’t even bothered to look for help and I bet you new players feel lost and frustrated.

Can someone teach me how to do scripts and triggers in cryengine? I’ll even do the voice acting and editing and do the damn tutorials myself. I’ll do a tutorial every month. (wink wink PGI, I'm a quick learner!)

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 30 July 2014 - 12:32 PM.

[Colonel Rambo]

Carl Avery, on 30 July 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Hmm. Reducing the PPC speed would completely screw the classic triple-PPC Awesome. Any build with PPCs but no ballistics is already a joke to the competitive crowd; lowering the PPC projectile speed just makes this problem worse. PPCs are only overly powerful when combined with heavy ballistics. So I can't favor the PPC travel speed reduction, because it'd screw the Awesome even more than the poor thing already is.....

I agree.

PPC stats are fine right now. Please don't mess with mech builds that are using PPCs (and PPCs only) as their primary weapon. If you really want to slow down the projectile speed then you would have to buff PPCs in another field at the same time: e.g. decrease heat, remove ghost heat, decrease weapon recycle time....

Couple of weeks ago I even suggested buffing ER-PPCs projectile speed so you can actually make some long distance damage.

[warner2]

Far too complicated. You want people to play and enjoy this game do you not? There are already far too many mechanics that simply put are not enjoyable. You are right about ghost heat. It is passive. It simply is and restricts how many energy weapons you can use. Gauss charge-up is another step. It has a skill ceiling, many players don't bother with gauss now, some macro, some learn to use it without. This is in itself is dubious for the healthy state of the game. This .... monstrosity of a mechanic is horrible and is a step beyond simple, elegant game design. How will that sort of thing attract new players? You are just putting people off playing this game.

I hate the fact that leg damage is discouraging players from using light 'mechs.

Please try harder to make your game enjoyable or simply put it will never take off, it will always be average, and it will wither away in a year once community warfare is out and revealed to be lacking in depth.

Your CORE selling point is 'mech combat. MAKE IT FUN.

[NoClass]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 30 July 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

You actually played less than 2 weeks ago and have played pretty consistently over the past two months. I appreciate that you may not like these changes, but we'd ask that you leave us your honest and constructive feedback rather than directed insults.

You should know by now that feed back threads produce a few posts of constructive criticism, a lot of vitriol but mostly they are used for all the amateur game designers in the "community" to peddle their ideas meant to solve whatever they subjectively perceive to be "Da Problum."

My feedback:

I'm throwing my hat in the ring with the "just nerf the dire wolf" crowd. Russ stated that the proposed mechanic exists in response to the dire wolf. Taking that into consideration as well as the stated goal of ~30 pinpoint alpha maximum, the dire wolf is the only offender.

Edited by VigilanceHawkwind, 30 July 2014 - 12:29 PM.

[SgtKinCaiD]

@Niko, please consider this :

SgtKinCaiD, on 30 July 2014 - 12:10 AM, said:

If i had the choice, i would do these instead :

• increase the PPC cooldown by 2-3 sec (aka make every shot count). Maybe reduce pinpoint dmg and add spread dmg instead (3/4 pinpoint, 1/4 spread)
  
• buff heavily large pulse laser => 12 dmg, 0.5s beam duration
  
• buff srm by bringing them back to 2.5 dmg/m
  
• slightly buff medium laser => heat back to 3

With these, a sniper will still be king at long range, but if someone manage to get up close to his face, he will be screwed like it should !

[Capsta]

All of these nerfs, for years, have been dancing around the actual problem weapon: The PPC.

The PPC is high FLD and works fine close up and at range. It doesn't explode. It doesn't need ammo. It doesn't require a higher level of skill to use. It doesn't expose your position as much as lasers. It has been the OP weapon that's been behind the imbalance the entire time.

The AC/20=range limited. Requires ammo (that can explode). Must needs expose mech. High risk/reward weapon.
AC/5= Balanced by reduced damage and weight. Ammo can explode.
The Guass=explodes when hit and also now takes a higher level of skill. Requires ammo. Is very heavy and requires a lot of space.
Lasers=Pilot must keep them on target over time (requires skill). Gives pilot's location away. Heat stacks up quickly.
LRMs=Requires locks, which requires teamwork, positioning, or exposing your mech for extended periods of time. Requires ammo that can explode...LOTS OF IT.
SRMS=Requires exposing your mech at short range. High risk/High Reward weapon. Heat stacks up quickly.

To me, everything is pretty well balanced, except the PPC.

My suggested solution would be to add some sort of delay, or charge time to the PPC. This can be either manually charged like the gauss (here come the flames), or automatically charged. The primary point being that the PPC would no longer be an instant fire weapon and the charge time could be adjusted to make syncing with other pinpoint weapons require a very high skill level.
This basic concept could be tested with different variations until a reasonable amount of skill would be required, so that it balances the weapon to the rest of the game.

~Cap.

[Hellcat420]

Clint Steel, on 30 July 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Why not just add an "energy bar" to go along with heat? At least it wouldn't be as convoluted and confusing as the suggested ideas.

I do think ER/PPCs could use a nerf (really isn't the issue always ER/PPCs?) but not sure more weird hidden mechanics are the answer.

Splash damage (maybe 5 pinpoint 5 spread to surrounding areas) would be my choice, and make Clan PPCs balanced with IS (more heat, or same damage as IS).

ppc's are not the problem, they are fine.

Capsta, on 30 July 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

All of these nerfs, for years, have been dancing around the actual problem weapon: The PPC.

The PPC is high FLD and works fine close up and at range. It doesn't explode. It doesn't need ammo. It doesn't require a higher level of skill to use. It doesn't expose your position as much as lasers. It has been the OP weapon that's been behind the imbalance the entire time.

The AC/20=range limited. Requires ammo (that can explode). Must needs expose mech. High risk/reward weapon.
AC/5= Balanced by reduced damage and weight. Ammo can explode.
The Guass=explodes when hit and also now takes a higher level of skill. Requires ammo. Is very heavy and requires a lot of space.
Lasers=Pilot must keep them on target over time (requires skill). Gives pilot's location away. Heat stacks up quickly.
LRMs=Requires locks, which requires teamwork, positioning, or exposing your mech for extended periods of time. Requires ammo that can explode...LOTS OF IT.
SRMS=Requires exposing your mech at short range. High risk/High Reward weapon. Heat stacks up quickly.

To me, everything is pretty well balanced, except the PPC.

My suggested solution would be to add some sort of delay, or charge time to the PPC. This can be either manually charged like the gauss (here come the flames), or automatically charged. The primary point being that the PPC would no longer be an instant fire weapon and the charge time could be adjusted to make syncing with other pinpoint weapons require a very high skill level.
This basic concept could be tested with different variations until a reasonable amount of skill would be required, so that it balances the weapon to the rest of the game.

~Cap.

are you claiming a single ppc is op, because that is pretty laughable statement.

Edited by Hellcat420, 30 July 2014 - 12:38 PM.

[Capsta]

Hellcat420, on 30 July 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

ppc's are not the problem, they are fine.


are you claiming a single ppc is op, because that is pretty laughable statement.

Not exactly. I'm claiming that the PPC syncing with other weapons is. By adding a short delay (perhaps .3 seconds) to the PPC firing, you could easily de-sync its ability to pinpoint FLD without screwing up the single PPC users. If all you've got is one PPC and you can't handle a .3 second delay....that's pretty laughable.

[TheButterMonkey]

Please don't ruin PPCs by making them shoot hot slow moving potatoes. There are still some of us who enjoy making a balanced loadout and using a PPC or two (especially since this is the only Clan weapon that will fire a single projectile when clicked). They already have by far the highest heat of any weapon in the game and require significant leading at long range.

Don't ruin PPCs for everyone just because some people found a way to make a cheap easily exploitable build.

Re: the combo penalty, not sure about the details, but if the issue is specifically Gauss/PPC combos, then address that. This seems to be going in the right direction.

Edit: I hate firing delays. When I pull the trigger on a gun, it's supposed to go boom. Not give me a loading screen, then ask me to perform another step to shoot. You guys can say I am not skilled enough to handle the new gauss, that's fine. Taking every direct fire weapon and adding a charge time to it is a horrible idea and ruins the fun and feel of the weapons.

Edited by TheButterMonkey, 30 July 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

This is frankly ridiculous. The problem is too many weapons hitting a single point of impact at the same time. The obvious solution is to add a degree of dispersion to multiple weapons. All of these targeted nerfs that affect only specific weapon systems result in a ridiculous gordian knot of exceptions and special cases.

Rebuild the underlying system to reduce pinpoint accuracy and you can unravel all the ridiculous edge cases. All changes like this do is present a moving target for the next exploitable system.

[One Last Byte]

Jetfire, on 29 July 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

Too much hidden "go read the command post from a year ago" in the gameplay is going to kill new player interest.

I definitely agree with that. I've been playing this for a few months and I've only recently begun to understand some of the quirky game mechanics. It definitely takes dedication from a new player at this point to seek all that out.

Homeless Bill, on 29 July 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Bottom line: the weapon lock mechanic is awkward, and there's no way to make it not awkward. And the alternative of changing PPC speed will just make it synergize with higher-calibre autocannons better, so people will switch to that. Sure, it negates the range, but the problem is still ultimately 30+ pinpoint damage to a single location.

I'm begging you to consider something like this. A hurricane of bandaids has done half of what a serious effort to tackle front-loaded damage could do, and you'd have the added benefit of having another way to balance over/under-performing variants.

If you're going to go with weapon lock, at least combine it with that sort of scale so that all weapons can be balanced accordingly. One-off mechanics like what's being proposed are really awkward.

You could argue that it's complicated, but how is it any more so than the combination of this arbitrary mechanic, Ghost Heat, the Gauss charge, and all the other jumpjet and PPC adjustments it's taken to get even this close? Please go comprehensive and get this over with.

HB's solution sounds very promising. Obviously some of the values will need to be tweaked a bit, but I'd at least like to try this out on the PTS. The only disadvantage (this may have been stated previously) is that this could mean a fair amount of extra work for PGI. Still, the potential benefits could be game-changing.

[Hellcat420]

Capsta, on 30 July 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

Not exactly. I'm claiming that the PPC syncing with other weapons is. By adding a short delay (perhaps .3 seconds) to the PPC firing, you could easily de-sync its ability to pinpoint FLD without screwing up the single PPC users. If all you've got is one PPC and you can't handle a .3 second delay....that's pretty laughable.

that didnt work for the gauss rifle, why do you think its gonna magically work now? people can and have easily worked around firing delays. your suggestion will only nerf people who do not abuse ppc combos, and will have minimal to no effect on ppc/gauss and ppc/ac users.

Edited by Hellcat420, 30 July 2014 - 12:49 PM.