1258 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Mister Blastman, on 08 August 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

So we can has no charge Gauss back now?

That's a bad idea. Were you NOT here when Gauss was used for brawling more than sniping?

The charge was needed to make it into a sniping weapon. Remove it, and everyone will be running with dual gauss everywhere.


EDIT: WHY DO WE HAVE A STEINER CHALLENGE WITH NO ATLAS MECHS?

Edited by IraqiWalker, 08 August 2014 - 05:26 PM.

[Boyka]

Too complex.

Solution:

- Remove Gauss charge
- 1Gauss + 1PPC can fire together
- 2Gauss + 1PPC two of them can fire together, the third can fire after 1 second
- 1Gauss + 2PPC two of them can fire together, the third can fire after 1 second
- 2Gauss + 2PPC two of them can fire together, the other two can fire after 1 second

Stop.

Edited by Boyka, 08 August 2014 - 05:29 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Boyka, on 08 August 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

Too complex.

Solution:

- Remove Gauss charge

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

That's a bad idea. Were you NOT here when Gauss was used for brawling more than sniping?

The charge was needed to make it into a sniping weapon. Remove it, and everyone will be running with dual gauss everywhere.

[Mister Blastman]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

That's a bad idea. Were you NOT here when Gauss was used for brawling more than sniping?

The charge was needed to make it into a sniping weapon. Remove it, and everyone will be running with dual gauss everywhere.


EDIT: WHY DO WE HAVE A STEINER CHALLENGE WITH NO ATLAS MECHS?

I have been here since closed beta before the Founder's got in. I have seen it all.

[IraqiWalker]

Mister Blastman, on 08 August 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

I have been here since closed beta before the Founder's got in. I have seen it all.

Exactly, so why do you want that back?

[Mister Blastman]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Exactly, so why do you want that back?

Because it is a stupid mechanic and according to PGI, the only reason it was ever put in was to desynch it from PPCs. Now they are desynced... by speed. Might as well.

Gauss was powerful back in the day but good brawlers could sneak up on them and take them down.

[Boyka]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

That's a bad idea. Were you NOT here when Gauss was used for brawling more than sniping?

The charge was needed to make it into a sniping weapon. Remove it, and everyone will be running with dual gauss everywhere.


EDIT: WHY DO WE HAVE A STEINER CHALLENGE WITH NO ATLAS MECHS?

I'm a founder, played this game from the begin, only a few mech can use a dual gauss, and if you use a gauss for a brawler configuration you're a fool, this weapon in heavy and can explode if hit, you need an XL to carry such weight, all things that make that configurations not a brawlers.

[Boyka]

The gauss charge was introduced to discourage jump sniper, however jump sniper remain and a lot of mech support configuration using gauss were ruined.

[IraqiWalker]

Mister Blastman, on 08 August 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

Because it is a stupid mechanic and according to PGI, the only reason it was ever put in was to desynch it from PPCs. Now they are desynced... by speed. Might as well.

Gauss was powerful back in the day but good brawlers could sneak up on them and take them down.

Yeah, and the ability to snap fire 15 PP FLD for 0 heat wasn't a bonus at all to use it when people close in on you.

Boyka, on 08 August 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

I'm a founder, played this game from the begin, only a few mech can use a dual gauss, and if you use a gauss for a brawler configuration you're a fool, this weapon in heavy and can explode if hit, you need an XL to carry such weight, all things that make that configurations not a brawlers.

You miss the big point.

One of the biggest problems with the gauss without the charge mechanic is that there is no counterplay. There is no risk in bringing a supposedly long range weapon into a close range fight.

If I sneak up on a PPC mech I can get within minimum range. If I sneak up on an ERPPC or ERLL mech, I can get them to over heat. While the Gauss can slap anymech instantly for 15 PP FLD with 0 heat, and again, no real risk. A sniper weapon should be difficult to use in short range engagements, not be good at all ranges with no drawbacks.


The argument that is explodes is silly, since to do that, your opponent (usually a light mech sent to distract the sniper) needs to first strip your armor.

Boyka, on 08 August 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

The gauss charge was introduced to discourage jump sniper, however jump sniper remain and a lot of mech support configuration using gauss were ruined.

That's only half correct. The fix was for both dealing with HGNs running around with Gauss PPC, and for dealing with the fact that there was almost no risk to using the weapon. There was no threat to you when an enemy got close. You deal instant damage for zero heat, with a relatively short cooldown.

Also, not a single Guass build (valid Gauss build) got hurt by the charge mechanic. Dual Gauss jagers are still running around. The only build that somewhat got hurt was the CPLT-K2 with dual gauss. Even that one still works, just not as good as it used to since over the years high mounted weapons became more and more meta. Basically, even without the charge mechanic, the Gauss cat would've become obsolete anyways.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 08 August 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Yeah, and the ability to snap fire 15 PP FLD for 0 heat wasn't a bonus at all to use it when people close in on you.

It was, and it was scary as hell to go up against. When I was brawling back then the 'mech I feared the most was the gaussapult. But that was then, before the critical gauss explosion, etc.

I'd at least like to see it given a try.

[Boyka]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Yeah, and the ability to snap fire 15 PP FLD for 0 heat wasn't a bonus at all to use it when people close in on you.


You miss the big point.

One of the biggest problems with the gauss without the charge mechanic is that there is no counterplay. There is no risk in bringing a supposedly long range weapon into a close range fight.

If I sneak up on a PPC mech I can get within minimum range. If I sneak up on an ERPPC or ERLL mech, I can get them to over heat. While the Gauss can slap anymech instantly for 15 PP FLD with 0 heat, and again, no real risk. A sniper weapon should be difficult to use in short range engagements, not be good at all ranges with no drawbacks.


The argument that is explodes is silly, since to do that, your opponent (usually a light mech sent to distract the sniper) needs to first strip your armor.


That's only half correct. The fix was for both dealing with HGNs running around with Gauss PPC, and for dealing with the fact that there was almost no risk to using the weapon. There was no threat to you when an enemy got close. You deal instant damage for zero heat, with a relatively short cooldown.

Also, not a single Guass build (valid Gauss build) got hurt by the charge mechanic. Dual Gauss jagers are still running around. The only build that somewhat got hurt was the CPLT-K2 with dual gauss. Even that one still works, just not as good as it used to since over the years high mounted weapons became more and more meta. Basically, even without the charge mechanic, the Gauss cat would've become obsolete anyways.

And you miss another big point: you can carry a gauss if you sacrifice 15 tons, with at least 4 tons of ammo for justify it you have 19 tons for one "explosive" gun, you can doing a lot of good configuration with a single gauss partnered with some medium laser or SRM; support role, mid to far distance.
There were a lot before gauss charge, i don't see no one now and these configurations were not a problem, poptarting problem just remain. Configurations restricted by a game mechanics: not a big deal.

Edited by Boyka, 08 August 2014 - 06:59 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Boyka, on 08 August 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

And you miss another big point: you can carry a gauss if you sacrifice 15 tons, with at least 4 tons of ammo for justify it you have 19 tons for one gun, you can doing a lot of good configuration with a single gauss partnered with some medium laser or SRM; support role, mid to far distance.
There were a lot before gauss charge, i don't see no one now and these configuration was not a problem, poptarting problem just remain. Restriction in configuration caused by a game mechanics: not a big deal.

These configuration are still viable and usable. They didn't get hurt. Gauss mechs still roam the fields, they're not the OP hammer of god they used to be, that's it, but they are far from being weak, or in need of a buff.

Honestly, the only thing I would tweak about the Gauss rifle is extending the charge retention time. That would allow for greater accuracy with the weapon.

[Boyka]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

The argument that is explodes is silly, since to do that, your opponent (usually a light mech sent to distract the sniper) needs to first strip your armor.

Difficult to keep your armor safe in a brawling cause it's difficult your opponent would be a light, another time: if you would a brawler mech a gauss it's a very bad choice with or without charge.

[Sandpit]

It's amazing how this thread died out after everyone taking countless hours to give Paul constructive feedback was just completely ignored....

[Reno Blade]

Boyka, on 08 August 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

I'm a founder, played this game from the begin, only a few mech can use a dual gauss, and if you use a gauss for a brawler configuration you're a fool, this weapon in heavy and can explode if hit, you need an XL to carry such weight, all things that make that configurations not a brawlers.

I was running a Dragon with 1 Gauss and 4ML and it was a beast. Dragon = Beast. do you believe it?
It was better than an AC20 for brawling because it had 1 heat and a lot more range and ammo back then and it still is.

The charge was not just a balancing factor for a sniper rifle, but it was the best way to simulate the minimum range from Tabletop.
It would make no sense for a bullet to do no damage (like PPCs) at minimum range and the charge simulates the difficulty of aiming at such short ranges perfectly while allowing great aim at longer ranges without a problem.

[Boyka]

Reno Blade, on 08 August 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

I was running a Dragon with 1 Gauss and 4ML and it was a beast. Dragon = Beast. do you believe it?
It was better than an AC20 for brawling because it had 1 heat and a lot more range and ammo back then and it still is.

The charge was not just a balancing factor for a sniper rifle, but it was the best way to simulate the minimum range from Tabletop.
It would make no sense for a bullet to do no damage (like PPCs) at minimum range and the charge simulates the difficulty of aiming at such short ranges perfectly while allowing great aim at longer ranges without a problem.

Yeah I believe it, I was running configurations like Cataphract with XL, gauss and 5ML, frail but fun to hell. MWO it's a game but every time complex mechanic are introduced become less funny.. IMHO.

You're worried about brawling, introduce minimum range then; you say it would make no sense for a bullet to do damage at minimum range, I say there a lot of things having no sense in this game, take JJ for example, you can jump and turn your mech in the air but if you fire JJ again your mech still fly straight with no minimum correction.. that's weird too.

Make it simple, introduce abstruse mechanic don't help the game, repeat:

- Remove Gauss charge
- 1Gauss + 1PPC can fire together
- 2Gauss + 1PPC two of them can fire together, the third can fire after X second
- 1Gauss + 2PPC two of them can fire together, the third can fire after X second
- 2Gauss + 2PPC two of them can fire together, the other two can fire after X second

That's more simple than what proposed in first post and you don't need to nerf a weapon cause a few mech configurations are too dangerous; restrict the single setup if you want, why all have to pay for a few, like always? by the way I can not stop you to make game more boring..

Edited by Boyka, 09 August 2014 - 06:51 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Boyka, the system you list there is what Paul had stated in the first post.
Only 2 of any PPC/Gauss combo can be fired together.

[Sandpit]

Reno Blade, on 07 August 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

So it is closer to a Flight sim with missile lock (or actual MWO LRM) just not the lock but the convergence.

Sounds a bit like in "Engarde" when Justin Allard tried to lock onto the Rifleman, but the woods made the targeting system unable to and he switched to manual aiming and fired without a "hard lock" of his weapons.

It would definitely help against the twitch-shooting element of these weapons, but it would not help against the power of these builds.
Of course if the convergence is depending on loadout, somehow...
Well, I don't know about the speed, but if we had the 6 reticules mentioned above converging like this, it could work.
Please excuse the bad animation.

Sandpit, on 07 August 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

this pic is perfect to illustrate what I'm talking about.

See how each crosshair moves in order to converge on the same spot?
Now if each ballistic and PPC had the same effect, and moved at different speeds based on size, it would solve most of the FLD and PPD issues. You'd still hit exactly where you're aiming but you'd have to show a little patience and skill to line up ALL of your weapons on the same spot.

lasers wouldn't have a convergence mechanic added to them. They could remain as instant convergence which would help make them more viable against ballistics since they're not FLD. Thank you Reno! I was searching and searching for something that would help me illustrate because I think some (including PGI) are misinterpreting what myself and a few others are saying about convergence delay.

This also requires no additional mechanics or coding as this is already in the system. It has to be in order to aim anything. All that would need to be done is just adjust the speed at which a weapon tracks.

simple and elegant. solves all the issues.

[IraqiWalker]

Boyka, on 09 August 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

- Remove Gauss charge

Biggest mistake right there.

Sandpit, on 09 August 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

simple and elegant. solves all the issues.

amen

[Keyman1848]

The PPC nerf and the 2 Clan ER LL nerf are way overdone. The approach to doing everything at once is bad too. Things were not totally screwed up to warrant such drastic action.

Dropping the PPC speed by 200 meters a second would have been fine.

The dual Clan ER LL ghost heat penalty is ridiculous. Why don't you just prevent chain fire for everything then! 2 ER LL is standard on many clan variants. This invalidates standard builds. Very Wrong!

What about addressing what really needs to be fixed? - the pulse lasers! They need a buff.

Its time that more high heat penalties get put in the game - let players sit longer if they massively overheat. The tabletop game also had movement penalties and aiming penalties when mechs were too hot, these should be added and the ghost head mechanic removed.

Edited by Keyman1848, 09 August 2014 - 09:45 AM.