1263 replies to this topic

[Major Tannhauser]

Thx Elseria!
The link explain far better, what i mean, but cant translate properly.

[Cimarb]

IraqiWalker, on 23 August 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

I'm gonna watch how this argument develops, but just one point should be mentioned:

MGs are not pinpoint. They actually operate exactly like flamers spewing a template that deals damage to all locations under it. If they were pinpoint, they would be infinitely more fun to use.

Lol, yeah, that is why I put "arguably" next to MG in both paragraphs. It is hitscan, so technically pinpoint, but random for each fraction of a point of damage. Some of the weapons that do very low amounts of damage, such as AC2s, are technically PPFLD, but the amount of damage they do is so small that they really do not count. I draw the "FLD line" at 5 points of damage (IS AC5+), but some may not agree with me, of course.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

Reno Blade, on 23 August 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

loaded-pinpoint weapons like PPC or isAC20.

LOL~wut? AC20 is pinpoint weapon? Since when? It's mostly a mortar than a normal cannon. Well if IS AC20 would got projectile speed like 980m/s you would complain, but in actual situation with AC20 you got no rights to whine.
Another nice thing is effective range drop on IS Gauss from 880 metres to 660 metres, which made a crucial thing about this weapon usage. Now it's more useless than ever and don't forget that GR does X-Plode whet get hit taking half a mech with it.
Actually the main balance rule was broken when ERPPC got nerfed. While taking projectile speed and give a beck some damage for it there was nothing done about it.

So the feedback is...THE LAST WORSTEST 3 WEAPON PATCHES FOR BOTH, IS and CLANS.

MUST BE FIXED or ROLLED BACK.

[IraqiWalker]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 26 August 2014 - 12:37 AM, said:

LOL~wut? AC20 is pinpoint weapon? Since when? It's mostly a mortar than a normal cannon. Well if IS AC20 would got projectile speed like 980m/s you would complain, but in actual situation with AC20 you got no rights to whine.
Another nice thing is effective range drop on IS Gauss from 880 metres to 660 metres, which made a crucial thing about this weapon usage. Now it's more useless than ever and don't forget that GR does X-Plode whet get hit taking half a mech with it.
Actually the main balance rule was broken when ERPPC got nerfed. While taking projectile speed and give a beck some damage for it there was nothing done about it.

So the feedback is...THE LAST WORSTEST 3 WEAPON PATCHES FOR BOTH, IS and CLANS.

MUST BE FIXED or ROLLED BACK.

The AC 20 is a PP FLD weapon. It's pin point. One shot, full damage to one location. That's the very definition of pinpoint front loaded damage. Projectile speed is irrelevant here, since the delivery mechanism is still PP FLD.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

...plus

IS still waiting for BINARY LASER CANNON.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

IraqiWalker, on 26 August 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

The AC 20 is a PP FLD weapon. It's pin point. One shot, full damage to one location. That's the very definition of pinpoint front loaded damage. Projectile speed is irrelevant here, since the delivery mechanism is still PP FLD.

*facepalm

PINPOINT -

• adjective - absolutely precise; to the finest degree.
  
• verb - find or locate exactly.
  
• noun - something that hits things some where over there with a spread of a penny coin absolutely precise without giving a single f*ck to range and rest kinda things.

​Does AC-20 match these meanings? No, not even close. Just use it once you'll see that I'm absolutely right. "The Pinpoint" weapons are only lasers and mostly only the Gauss, the rest is got affected one or another way so can't be leterally called a "pinpoint".

No one simply can not argue with that fact.

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 26 August 2014 - 12:54 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 26 August 2014 - 12:48 AM, said:

*facepalm

PINPOINT -

• adjective - absolutely precise; to the finest degree.
  
• verb - find or locate exactly.
  
• noun - something that hits things some where over there with a spread of a penny coin absolutely precise without giving a single f*ck to range and rest kinda things.

​Does AC-20 match these meanings? No, not even close. Just use it once you'll see that I'm absolutely right. "The Pinpoint" weapons are only lasers and mostly only the Gauss, the rest is got affected one or another way so can't be leterally called a "pinpoint".



No one simply can not argue with that fact.

First re-learn grammar, especially considering your last sentence. Since that means EVERYONE argues that point (which by the way, is not a fact, at least not your understanding of it)

Second, the AC 20 IS PINPOINT. It deals it's damage to one location. How is that not pinpoint. Do you even play this game?

Your flawed understanding of the definition comes from you thinking pinpoint has to be at long range. You are flat out, on a grammatical and conceptual level wrong.

No one CAN argue that fact.

The fact that your aim with the thing is bad has no bearing on the definition of it's functionality. The weapon deals it's damage to one location, and in fact is incapable of splitting, or spreading it's damage. The very definition of pinpoint.

EDIT: btw, Outskirt is spelled with a "k" not a "c". If you're going to give out linguistic advice, might wanna make sure you have your ducks in a row first.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 26 August 2014 - 01:34 AM.

[Cimarb]

I think his confusion is that he is looking at it from a targeting perspective, not a damage delivery perspective like we do. He thinks that only hitscan (or near hitscan proj speeds like Gauss) are considered pinpoint. It is wrong, but I think that is the difference.

[Kmieciu]

Pinpoint in MWO terms means that there is no projectile spread, no random cone of fire.

SRMs, LRMs, LBX, MG and Flamer all use cone of fire.

AC20 is pinpoint. No matter what you do, when you get hit by it all the damage will be delivered to a single component.

Edited by Kmieciu, 27 August 2014 - 03:03 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Adiuvo, on 29 July 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

This is a Mechwarrior game. Where you can aim. This is not Battletech tabletop, where you roll dice. If you want that experience, go play Megamek.

To this I say Go to a Rifle range and put 20 rounds though only one hole in the target. Then tell me about Aiming.

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 September 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

To this I say Go to a Rifle range and put 20 rounds though only one hole in the target. Then tell me about Aiming.

To counter that argument, I would like to point out that we are not machines. Put that rifle on a stable, locked firing mount (such as the arm of a mech) and it will be near-perfect every time, barring environmental changes, such as wind, obstacles, target movement, etc.

To further that counter, if you lock multiple weapons together in a single stable, locked firing mount and calibrate them, they will ALL be pinpoint accurate as well.

[Gorgo7]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 September 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

To this I say Go to a Rifle range and put 20 rounds though only one hole in the target. Then tell me about Aiming.

I have to reply to that flippant answer. (July, 29th...you are answering a post from July 29th?)
Go to a shooting range with a modern battle tank and put 20 rounds through a target on a calm day at 500m.

NO PROBLEM.

Last time i looked my Wolverine didn't sling his LBX-10 over his shoulder when moving cross country...Where do long-arms and 60 ton war machines line up?
I'd love to hear it!

[Major Tannhauser]

I like the real life comparisions here. Makes so much sense
Dont go with every 'i-know-more-than-you-about-weapons-post' and instead concentrate at improving the game mechanic.
Happy day o/

[Lightfoot]

In truth PPCs are too slow now. Go try to hit moving targets at more than 400 meters. You won't unless they are coming mostly straight at you.

This has allowed me to use my Thor as an LRM40 mech since no one can hit me now unless they are a 2xGauss Jagermech. Typically I can just run laterally at 500-600 range meters and no one hits the mech except by random chance. Certainly no one has ever hit me with a PPC.

Accidently last night I ran across the lakefront on Caustic Valley in pursuit of one mech and low and behold there were 8-9 mechs under an ECM bubble. Normally this would be the end of the game since they all shot at me, the only target, but to my surprise they all mostly missed while I pelted them with 4 salvos of LRM40 (I had TAG) and maneuvered behind the large standing rock. I paused there a few seconds, saw my mech was only lightly hit, so I ran back the other way, shooting LRMs, and the 8-9 mechs shot at me again and all missed again.

Anyway, the old fast PPCs would have stopped me from succeeding or even trying, probably. Now everyone just brings Lasers and ACs and they are not accurate enough at over 400-500 meters to pose a threat for a rapidly shifting target. I won't say the LRMs are OP because they don't do enough damage to compete with direct fire ever, but if you can keep in the 500-600 meter zone only well aimed twin Gauss will ever do serious damage. Other LRMs of course, but that is a contest, not a threat.

So for tactical depth you want faster PPCs and do the Gauss Rifle PPC limitation instead.

[Fonzie260]

Here's an idea,

while it might not fix every thing but it's a different approach to the same problem. Once a mech has a certain heat level... make it so the weapons are not as stable to fire.. meaning that it might move left right up down making targeting a hard thing to do while the mech's heat is at a high level.

of course this comes with it's own problems and it's just an idea that popped in my head...

[Cimarb]

Fonzie260, on 18 September 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

Here's an idea,

while it might not fix every thing but it's a different approach to the same problem. Once a mech has a certain heat level... make it so the weapons are not as stable to fire.. meaning that it might move left right up down making targeting a hard thing to do while the mech's heat is at a high level.

of course this comes with it's own problems and it's just an idea that popped in my head...

I am completely against randomness, so I dislike that approach, but something that would simulate the same general idea would be to have arm/torso pitch/yaw slowed. So, as your heat raised, your arms and and torso would become sluggish and less responsive, effectively making it harder to hit anything not directly in front of you.

[IraqiWalker]

Fonzie260, on 18 September 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

Here's an idea,

while it might not fix every thing but it's a different approach to the same problem. Once a mech has a certain heat level... make it so the weapons are not as stable to fire.. meaning that it might move left right up down making targeting a hard thing to do while the mech's heat is at a high level.

of course this comes with it's own problems and it's just an idea that popped in my head...

Cimarb, on 18 September 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

I am completely against randomness, so I dislike that approach, but something that would simulate the same general idea would be to have arm/torso pitch/yaw slowed. So, as your heat raised, your arms and and torso would become sluggish and less responsive, effectively making it harder to hit anything not directly in front of you.

That isn't much of a solution really. This is a long range build, they have the luxury of cooling down on their own terms, and re-engaging when they want. Making them fire twice every 10 seconds instead of 3 times isn't a solution to them hitting THAT hard. The sluggishness might be an interesting thing to try, though.

[Blood Rose]

If I can just point something out: At there current Muzzle Velocity PPC's are taking around 1 second to reach optimal range. That is the lowest relative MV of any weapon save LRM's in the game. Right now PPC's need a huge buff to projectile speed. A massive buff in fact.
No other weapon system except the AC20 reuqires the user to aim so drastically into the targets lead and unlike the AC20 PPC's are largely usless at close range with either a large minimal range at which they do nothing or a massive heat dump. However the shot is so damn slow that at the longer ranges where they are supposed to be able to reach they are almost impossible to use. Sure you can learn to aim - Heck We have and Im very good at it too but even still all it takes is for the target to change their course by a few degrees, speed up, hit a boulder or just brake and the shot goes screeching past to no effect.

In short, the PPC's are currently weak with their curent MV and need a projectile speed boost. A big one. And no way in hell do they need more nerfing so put that Maverick down Paul and step away.

[Cimarb]

IraqiWalker, on 18 September 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

That isn't much of a solution really. This is a long range build, they have the luxury of cooling down on their own terms, and re-engaging when they want. Making them fire twice every 10 seconds instead of 3 times isn't a solution to them hitting THAT hard. The sluggishness might be an interesting thing to try, though.

Yeah, not saying it will solve anything. Just trying to find a better way to implement what he was suggesting.

[Tom0169]

The logical approach from the first page was best I think.
Every Reactor has a Max output of energy per minute and every weapon has a needed energy input per minute.
When you overluse your reactor (over max output) he creates more heat
It's a nice logical system.
Just read
http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=3987
It's good.

edit:
the post from Homeless Bill it was

Edited by Tom0169, 18 September 2014 - 12:48 PM.