90 replies to this topic

[Kutfroat]

yes, it´s still op. the charge mechanic was never a nerf, because the ones who use it, either use dual gauss (no sync. required), or use a macro to sync it with ppc´s. i would say, remove the charge, but cut dps by 50% and add 180m or even 270m (med laser range) minimum range, because this way it would really hurt you if you only bring gauss and other long range weapons. right now, gauss rifle is still too good even at close range. it must not be viable as a brawl weapon!

Edited by Kutfroat, 30 July 2014 - 07:58 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Gyrok, on 29 July 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

If you cannot see how brokenly OP they are in comparison to what they should be, then perhaps piloting light mechs and medium mechs is not for you...?

Lights are already less effective than bigger mechs. They're not OP whatsoever, they're the weakest class in the game right now. This isn't a good thing as you seem to think so long as the game is balanced around all classes being equally viable. If lights are complete **** then there's no reason for anyone to play them. 'Scouting' by sitting 800m away looking at crap under ECM is not a fun gameplay mechanic for anyone and with your changes lights would even be good at that.

Lights need to function as a mech class that does auxiliary duties, but most importantly, kills mechs out of position. They can do this so long as there is a skill gap involved between the players, but on equal footing a heavy/assault can keep up with a light without a problem. Why should a class get all the weapons, all the armor, and all the agility? It's stupid and not conductive to a good gameplay experience for the crappier mechs.

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

Kutfroat, on 30 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

yes, it´s still op. the charge mechanic was never a nerf, because the ones who use it, either use dual gauss (no sync. required), or use a macro to sync it with ppc´s. i would say, remove the charge, but cut dps by 50% and add 180m minimum range, because this way it would really hurt you if you only bring gauss and other long range weapons. right now, gauss rifle is still too good even at close range. it must not be viable as a brawl weapon!

[B E E L Z E B U B]

Jazzbandit1313, on 30 July 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

All you people saying that the charge mechanic makes the gauss terrible clearly haven't used the weapon enough to get used to it and learn to love it like i have. WE HAVE BECOME UNFOCUSED.

WE NEED ENERGY WEAPON NERFS DURING AND AFTER CHARGING AND FIRING A GAUSS RIFLE OR TWO. this will solve all pinpoint gauss+PPC problems IMO. like i said in original post, during and 2 seconds after charge and fire, nerf energy weapon damage by 25%-50% This makes sense, as the gauss rifles pull so much energy from the reactor, there is less energy for other weapons to function. I mean heck, even a SLIGHT SPEED DECREASE OF THE MECH WOULD BE GREAT.

so if i have a gauss then my lasers get nerfed? wtf kinda of shi* is that?? OP, thank god youre not a dev.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Kutfroat, on 30 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

...180m minimum range [Gauss], because this way it would really hurt you if you only bring gauss and other long range weapons. right now, gauss rifle is still too good even at close range. it must not be viable as a brawl weapon!

Minimum range on a ballistic shell never makes any sense to me. I understand the need to add it as a balance factor, but it is incredibly counter intuitive to logic. Now a PPC with minimum range can be imagined to make more sense. Maybe once the charged particles leave the cannon, it takes time for them to atomically interact with each other and become corosive. A PPC is a fictional weapon, so those things can be imagined to make sense. A projectile is realistic, and projectiles aren't hamless when they leave a barrel of a gun or cannon.

Also, I have used a Gauss up close, but only when I have to. Timing the charge mechanic while keeping a mech running around you on target is HARD unless that other mech is running straight at you. If that mech is running perpendicular to you, it is tricky IMO.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 30 July 2014 - 08:04 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

PPCs have a minimum range because of the EM properties of the particle beam potentially causing a feedback loop in the firing mechanism. It's not that they can't do damage under 90 m, they just shouldn't be firing under 90 m because it could damage the user. A better way for PGI to have implemented this would have been for the gun to simply not fire at all if the cross-hair is pointing at something less than or equal to 90 m distance away.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 29 July 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

Then theres no reason to play a light or medium mech. Ever. So your reasoning is obviously flawed.

Light and medium mechs should be as good as heavies and assaults, because they all occupy an equal spot on the team. If pinpoint damage prevents them from being as good as heavies and assaults then pinpoint damage needs to be reduced. Its really that simple.

Because it should be obvious that were never going to get actual role warfare. So the best we can hope for is lights and mediums getting a reasonable buff to their survivability in the form of pinpoint damage being reduced across the board.

Actually the reason to take a light is to be fast enough to NOT be hit. TT has a saying, Speed is Armor. You want a Light Mech you take it knowing you can and likely will in a blink of an eye be crippled. Like I take my Atlas knowing at any moment I will run into the majority of the enemy team and die in seconds to massed fire I cannot escape. Your argument on this is that of a whiner Khob!Which is not calling you one... as my wife would say.

Lights die to quickly when being hit by massed weapons that weigh as much as my Mech? I fire 29 tons of weapons from My Atlas. (ERPPC, AC10, 3x SRM6) If I hit a Jenner with all of that(48 point average per Alpha), it had better be limping afterwards. Cause 6-7 tons of armor, should not withstand that much firepower for long.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 July 2014 - 11:58 AM.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 July 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Actually the reason to take a light is to be fast enough to NOT be hit.

Then make it so this is actually the case?

150kph and wide area turning is not hard to hit...

Edited by Wispsy, 30 July 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 July 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Lights die to quickly when being hit by massed weapons that weigh as much as my Mech? I fire 29 tons of weapons from My Atlas. (ERPPC, AC10, 3x SRM6) If I hit a Jenner with all of that(48 point average per Alpha), it had better be limping afterwards. Cause 6-7 tons of armor, should not withstand that much firepower for long.

56-ish damage on an Atlas is actually a pretty tame alpha considering most of it is SRMs. If you go look at the armor values of a Jenner, you'll notice that the arm alone can soak 75% of your mean 48 damage, assuming it's all pinpoint (which it isn't). The best you can do is take out a fresh leg, but you won't because SRMs spread.

The Jenner in MWO has 7.4 tons of armor total, without FF.

That being said, Lights are not agile enough. They need to turn faster, stop faster, and spring back into motion faster.

[BillyM]

Can we all simply agree that the weapon is fine when used by itself?

Dragon with 1GR and 2LL is by no means a terribly overpowered setup capable of striking the fear of god into any lights leg or side torso.

...but a 1/2GR 2/3PPC setup certainly is...

So it's not the weapon alone, but the ability to fire them all simultaneously...

...so lets all maybe talk about removing the ability to simultaneously fire GR and multi-PPCs instead?

How about forcing simul-fired PPC's and/or GR rounds out 1/2-sec after eachother

--billyM

[Joseph Mallan]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 July 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

56-ish damage on an Atlas is actually a pretty tame alpha considering most of it is SRMs. If you go look at the armor values of a Jenner, you'll notice that the arm alone can soak 75% of your mean 48 damage, assuming it's all pinpoint (which it isn't). The best you can do is take out a fresh leg, but you won't because SRMs spread.

The Jenner in MWO has 7.4 tons of armor total, without FF.

That being said, Lights are not agile enough. They need to turn faster, stop faster, and spring back into motion faster.

Yeah... I just grabbed the Sara, forgetting the FFA. I have been cut down from a 92 Point alpha back in CB to this wimpy 48 damage I use now. I don't Meta more than One AC10/one PPC or one AC and 2 Large Laser. I haven't seen the need for it as I have won only a few less than I have lost. And taking out a Jenners Leg is all that is needed to let the Wolf packs clean them up!

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 30 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Then make it so this is actually the case?

150kph and wide area turning is not hard to hit...

You need to make that a more accurate statement Wispy.

It is not hard for some/many/most? I would say it is not hard for Some. It is kinda difficult for many, and a pain in the Butt for the rest. Not everyone is a good reflex shot, I count myself in this group, I have my moments of Zen, but my reflex shooting has not improved with age.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Jazzbandit1313, on 30 July 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

All you people saying that the charge mechanic makes the gauss terrible clearly haven't used the weapon enough to get used to it and learn to love it like i have. WE HAVE BECOME UNFOCUSED.

Ok it is terrible compared to what it once was, there is no way to deny that. Also there is no denying that there is a skill/comfort factor involved with how effective the Guass is now.

However, what makes them suck is several factors for me.

First, The mechanic is overly complex. With ACs, PPC and SRMs, I have to lead and fire to be effective. With lasers I have to fire and follow to be effective. Both require just a two step process. With Gauss I have to time the charge, while leading the target and then try to release the button at the proper time to hit the target, hopefully before the charge timer expires. This is a massively convoluted process and alot of mental focus has to go into completing this process successfully. For me, having to try to manage this process while still engaging with ACs, PPCs, Missles and Lasers causes my entire timing to be thrown off.

However, You run a dual gauss build or even add in a PPC somwhere, where you don't have to focus on multiple varying weapons, well yeah then they are easy to use.

Also, the delay on the gauss means they aren't ready to fire when you need them to be ready to fire. This makes them substandard in alot of circumstance.

So what the nerf did was break them or at least make them very difficult to use in most mixed armament builds while doing nothing to solve the dual gauss/PPC meta builds. Basically a typical PGI fix.

So yeah I am absolutely sure some people, especially those using meta builds with Gauss Rifles find them effective but for alot of us, they offer more of a disadvantage than an advantage.

Prime example, I removed the Gauss from Timber Wolf C and replaced it with an LB-10X. The two tons I saved on the weight, went to DHS which countered the heat and now I can just aim and fire my LB-10x, then immediately adjust aim to fire my lasers or SRMs. With the guass, I spend a few seconds trying to hold down my Gauss fire button while trying to lead my target, while trying to monitor if the Gauss is charged up, while trying to lead my target while picking the prefect time to let the button go before my timer expires. Basically firing my Gauss takes up 2-3 seconds of full focus just on firing the Gauss, which is 2-3 seconds of not firing my lasers and/or SRMs. Overall I find I lose more than I gain by using the Gauss in a mixed build.

The Dire Wolf is going to be the exception mostly because it is a walking turret that is going to have heat issues without using Gauss Rifles. It just can't mount enough DHS to really cool both its supporting weapons and anything that could take the place of the Gauss rifles.

[Pjwned]

Wolfways, on 30 July 2014 - 03:55 AM, said:

Erm...it's supposed to be better.
You can't compare clan and IS weapons individually, you need to take the whole mech into account. The clan chassis were nerfed senseless but their weapons were left slightly better than IS weapons...if you can use them well enough.

The clan weapons are largely better because of their superior tonnage & crit slots (and more range, and energy weapons do more damage) so that you can fit in more of them except they give up something in the process like having ripple fire or longer beam duration so that you can't just say "oh these weapons are straight up better." The clan gauss rifle is notably less heavy and takes up less space, it doesn't give up anything for that so I don't think it's unfair for it to give up a little something in return.

Just because a gauss rifle won't work very well on a clan mech or 2 that's not designed to use it anyways doesn't completely justify how it's the same weapon except less heavy with no drawbacks and that argument is likely not going to hold up when more clan mechs are released. I don't see how it's unreasonable to give it a small drawback such as increased explosion damage (or something else) so that you look it and say "oh yeah this is still pretty much better but it comes at a price" and that seems more fair to me.

Viktor Drake, on 30 July 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

Ok it is terrible compared to what it once was, there is no way to deny that. Also there is no denying that there is a skill/comfort factor involved with how effective the Guass is now.

However, what makes them suck is several factors for me.

First, The mechanic is overly complex. With ACs, PPC and SRMs, I have to lead and fire to be effective. With lasers I have to fire and follow to be effective. Both require just a two step process. With Gauss I have to time the charge, while leading the target and then try to release the button at the proper time to hit the target, hopefully before the charge timer expires. This is a massively convoluted process and alot of mental focus has to go into completing this process successfully. For me, having to try to manage this process while still engaging with ACs, PPCs, Missles and Lasers causes my entire timing to be thrown off.

However, You run a dual gauss build or even add in a PPC somwhere, where you don't have to focus on multiple varying weapons, well yeah then they are easy to use.

Also, the delay on the gauss means they aren't ready to fire when you need them to be ready to fire. This makes them substandard in alot of circumstance.

So what the nerf did was break them or at least make them very difficult to use in most mixed armament builds while doing nothing to solve the dual gauss/PPC meta builds. Basically a typical PGI fix.

So yeah I am absolutely sure some people, especially those using meta builds with Gauss Rifles find them effective but for alot of us, they offer more of a disadvantage than an advantage.

Prime example, I removed the Gauss from Timber Wolf C and replaced it with an LB-10X. The two tons I saved on the weight, went to DHS which countered the heat and now I can just aim and fire my LB-10x, then immediately adjust aim to fire my lasers or SRMs. With the guass, I spend a few seconds trying to hold down my Gauss fire button while trying to lead my target, while trying to monitor if the Gauss is charged up, while trying to lead my target while picking the prefect time to let the button go before my timer expires. Basically firing my Gauss takes up 2-3 seconds of full focus just on firing the Gauss, which is 2-3 seconds of not firing my lasers and/or SRMs. Overall I find I lose more than I gain by using the Gauss in a mixed build.

The Dire Wolf is going to be the exception mostly because it is a walking turret that is going to have heat issues without using Gauss Rifles. It just can't mount enough DHS to really cool both its supporting weapons and anything that could take the place of the Gauss rifles.

While I agree that it's kind of crappy that the charge-up mechanic makes the gauss rifle hard to use in a build with a variety of weapons, it seems like the main issue is that you can't use it as a brawling weapon, which I would say is...working as intended? I'm not trying to be overly harsh but it shouldn't be used for brawling and if it's effective for that then there's probably something wrong with the weapon as far as balance considering what it is and what kind of ranges it can fire at.

I will note that part about hoping the shot doesn't discharge though, like I said I think the time to hold the shot is far too little and it needs to be bumped up to at least 2 seconds, preferably 2.5 seconds i.e doubled.

Edited by Pjwned, 30 July 2014 - 02:29 PM.

[Lightfoot]

I can't even use the Gauss since the de-sync. Still don't know why anyone would sacrifice shooting from the hip for just 15 points of damage. Sure you can make it work until someone gets close enough to circle, then your done for the match.

ya load 16 tons, whadaya get? not another day older, just a pile of....





.

Edited by Lightfoot, 30 July 2014 - 02:26 PM.

[Pjwned]

DONTOR, on 30 July 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

There a more cons than the ones ou thought of and they arent as straight forward or obvious. When you bring clan mechs into consideration you cant simply lose 10-15KPH and apply dual gauss, you have to make SERIOUS sacrifices to do it on a clan 75 ton mech, and is impossible on every chassis lighter (Summoner) and less. So my clan 70 ton mech cant have dual gauss but any of your I.S. 65 ton and up mechs can easily get dual gauss + backup weapons.

For one thing you should have to sacrifice a lot if you want 2 gauss rifles, and for another thing you have to make about as many* sacrifices on IS mechs due to its higher tonnage and crit slots, the only backup weapons you can have are a couple small or medium lasers unless you want to be a walking coffin, so no, "I.S. 65 ton and up mechs can easily get dual gauss + backup weapons" is wrong.

EDIT: I just looked at the timberwolf and it can't use dual gauss very effectively, however I'm still not convinced that it's balanced just because mechs not designed to use dual gauss can't do so and it's still very effective to load up a PPC or 2 instead of an extra gauss rifle.

Lightfoot, on 30 July 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

I can't even use the Gauss since the de-sync. Still don't know why anyone would sacrifice shooting from the hip for just 15 points of damage. Sure you can make it work until someone gets close enough to circle, then your done for the match.

ya load 16 tons, whadaya get? not another day older, just a pile of....





.

PPCs and LRMs have a similar weakness except gauss rifles can still do damage at that range.

Edited by Pjwned, 30 July 2014 - 02:36 PM.

[MajorLeeHung]

The issue here is pin point damage not guass. Please stop calling for nerfs.

[DuSucre]

The problem is not the weapon itself... You damn know it....


Do you really think my Gauss Hunchback is a death star ??? Of course not....
Neither is my Gauss Dragon ....

C'mon people... Face the truth and name clearly the real targets of this whining :


...Direwolf...

... and pinpoint damages...

[Pjwned]

Kutfroat, on 30 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

yes, it´s still op. the charge mechanic was never a nerf, because the ones who use it, either use dual gauss (no sync. required), or use a macro to sync it with ppc´s. i would say, remove the charge, but cut dps by 50% and add 180m or even 270m (med laser range) minimum range, because this way it would really hurt you if you only bring gauss and other long range weapons. right now, gauss rifle is still too good even at close range. it must not be viable as a brawl weapon!

You can't just use a macro to completely mitigate the charge-up time for every situation, and adding a minimum range would be stupid because the charge-up time already makes it weak if somebody is dancing around you in close range, not to mention it wouldn't make sense to have a minimum range on an inert metal ball being shot at high speed. The DPS is also already very low as it is, the only way to accomplish lowering it would be to increase its re-fire cooldown and the cooldown is already huge.

In summary I don't agree with any part of your post, it already hurts enough to have a gauss rifle in close range.

[CocoaJin]

So we need cross-hair wobble when on the move and/or using sustained fire, with a little aiming slope to add some dispersion(nothing major like the stray rounds on WoT that exit the barrel 30degs from center)...just some Rainbow Six style spread.