576 replies to this topic

[Pillgor]

Before crying for nerfing clan mechs you should consider a couple of points:

1. The gaming style played till now was stay as far away as you can and shoot at the enemy and grind him down. This style favors clan weapons because they do more damage at range. Inner Sphere weapons are stronger at closer ranges: no burst-ac's and shorter duaration of lasers.

2. Most fo the existing maps encourage the above mentioned style, but on all maps there are places that can cater to the strengths of IS-weapons. Releasing more maps with less free space or with more obstacles and barriers will negate much of the range advantage of clan weapons.

3. As already was mentioned nearly all clan Mechs are from the top of each weight class and have huge free tonnage for weapons but are on the slower side. The not yet released mechs are faster and have in general far less free tonage for weapons than you would think, take a look at sarna for confirmation.

4. As soon as there will be trial Clan Mechs and new players can choose those, the experience differnce between IS and Clans will even out.

So with time and the release of new maps, more clan mechs and a change in playing style (IS more aggressive, using terrain to get closer to clan mechs and a switch to weapons which favor this style) IS and Clans are definitly balanced. At this moment the IS has the advantage of having generally faster mechs... use them. The Meta prior to the release of the clans is not usable to fight clans, to fight the clans the meta has to change.

The test PGI did yesterday, is actually a good thing, just imagine the outcry if cw was already here and you had no time to devise new strategies to counter the strengths of the clans....^^


Edit: grammar

Edited by Pillgor, 31 July 2014 - 05:30 AM.

[Tharnes]

Pillgor, on 31 July 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

Before crying for nerfing clan mechs you should consider a couple of points:

According to the Devs the test was also about how "op" the clans are directly compared to the IS mechs.
Clans are actually considered to be not balanced yet by the Devs - which is rather silly. As selling the mechs instantly and balance them later down the line is quite vile. Tribes Ascend (also F2P) did the same thing with new equipment and lost huge chunks of their playerbase for it.
With a W/L of at least 90% for the clans we definitely will see adjustments to the clan mechs as the hurt the playerbase right now.

[Noth]

Tharnes, on 31 July 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

According to the Devs the test was also about how "op" the clans are directly compared to the IS mechs.
Clans are actually considered to be not balanced yet by the Devs - which is rather silly. As selling the mechs instantly and balance them later down the line is quite vile. Tribes Ascend (also F2P) did the same thing with new equipment and lost huge chunks of their playerbase for it.
With a W/L of at least 90% for the clans we definitely will see adjustments to the clan mechs as the hurt the playerbase right now.

Hate to tell you this, but pretty much all f2p games do this. Balance is something that is ever changing and thus is an ongoing process. Expecting anything in this game or any other f2p game not to get nerfs or buffs (even if bought with real money) is short sighted and shows a large ignorance of how game balancing actually works.

As for you tribes example, I'll point to LoL. They constantly nerf and buff champions, add new one and even remake old ones. If what you say is true of overall gaming, LoL should be dead instead of one of the largest if not largest f2p game in the world.

Edited by Noth, 31 July 2014 - 05:13 AM.

[Piney II]

Tharnes, on 31 July 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

As selling the mechs instantly and balance them later down the line is quite vile.

And just HOW would they balance these mechs without gameplay data? Run them all in a closed beta?

This was just a first pass data collection. I expect we'll see more of the Clan vs I.S, especially after C bill and trial releases.

Deep breaths, everyone............there will lots of tweaking down the road.

[Tharnes]

Noth, on 31 July 2014 - 05:12 AM, said:

As for you tribes example, I'll point to LoL. They constantly nerf and buff champions, add new one and even remake old ones. If what you say is true of overall gaming, LoL should be dead instead of one of the largest if not largest f2p game in the world.

LoL isn't locking new heroes behind massive paywalls though, imagine the outcry if broken(op) heroes were released for real-money only. While I also dislike the LoL-System, it can't be compared to the current buy of raw power the clans provide in MWO currently. Right now its cash for a massive advantage.

Also the new Arty-Meta kind is kind of the same as gold-ammo in WOT. All in all, if you invest a big chunk of money in MWO you get better stuff instantly - which is buying raw power.

Piney, on 31 July 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

And just HOW would they balance these mechs without gameplay data? Run them all in a closed beta?

Not selling them for real-money would be a start. It is clear that they are intended to be broken right now, I'm sure they will stay that way until the Timber is free for c-bills in a year or so. After that we will get the next unbalanced mechs in another locked package.

Clans sell like crazy, they won't stop locking op-mechs behind paywalls.

Edited by Tharnes, 31 July 2014 - 05:24 AM.

[Koniving]

HellJumper, on 30 July 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

as the title says
and guess whos winning....mainly that is

IS. Any IS mech that has next to no ML or SL or SPL or MPL is going to outperform and slaughter Clan mechs. Especially if they have 2 PPCs and an AC or two or SRMs.

In the cases of medium and small laser boats, the Clans will always win because the medium and small lasers are too damn hot (they're hotter than canon, while the Clan versions are canon heat levels. The large class lasers are all frozen cold in comparison to canon values).

[Wrenchfarm]

I love how many delusional clanners in here are sticking to the "we're only winning so bad because the IS side gets all the trial noobs!" line. There are plenty of posted match results where the IS got rolled with no or only one (C) mech on their team.

IS aren't getting rolled because they are stuck with the noobs.
Clanners aren't winning because only the "dedicated MWO vets" bought clan tech.

Clans are winning because they drive mechs that have twice the range, more than twice the damage potential, and far more surviability than the IS, it's that simple. Stop lying to yourselves that you magically improved overnight because "clan mechs fit my playing style".

As for the terrible people in this thread saying "just buy a clan mech then" please know that it isn't a cash thing that has kept me (and I imagine many others) from buying a clan mech, it's a moral thing. I have $55 bucks to pay for a Madcat collection and join the stomp, sure (and I'd be lying if I said I never considered it) but why should we give PGI more money?

I bought the YLW, the Pretty Baby, Premium time, camo and paint back in the day. Back in the early days of CB when the game seemed to be rough but getting where it needed to be. I even bought in while CB draaaaggged on. Then we had release, and still no CW, role warfare, or solid plans - just crippling bugs, over a year of broken SRMs, and a PPC-based metagame that has never been fun.

If I add it all up, I'd say I spent somewhere between $100-$150 on this game. That's more than I've spent on any other full release, feature-rich game in the past several years, games that delivered what they promised with a minimum of brokenness and a maximum of fun. What gives PGI the right to ask for more money after failing to deliver on so much of what they promised?

Then they pull a dirty trick where the only way to keep up and continue to enjoy the game is to fork out money (almost the price of a full game for just ONE type of mech) on unballanced clantech? No, I'm not giving them a cent and you shouldn't either.

[Thorn Hallis]

Why are people complaining? You wanted an invasion, you got an invasion.

[Sprouticus]

Saying 'the clans are imbalanced' is factually incorrect. There are plenty of clan mechs that are well balanced. And a couple that are terrible.

Saying the Tiberwolf needs to be fixed is correct.
Saying the ERML needs a tweak is correct.
Saying the stormcrow needs a tweak is arguably correct (although I think fixing the ERML will fix the Scrow)
Saying the cERPPC needs a tweak is arguably correct.
Saying the cGauss needs a tweak is arguably correct.

• Lower the dmg of the ERML by 0.5 or the range to 425
  
• Lower the Torso twist max, torso twist speed, and arm movement of the TW by 10-15%
  
• Increase the spread of the ERPPC to 4/7/4
  
• Lower the damage of the CGauss (and IS Gauss) by 1 point.

Then retest.

[Vassago Rain]

Sprouticus, on 31 July 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

Saying 'the clans are imbalanced' is factually incorrect. There are plenty of clan mechs that are well balanced. And a couple that are terrible.

Saying the Tiberwolf needs to be fixed is correct.
Saying the ERML needs a tweak is correct.
Saying the stormcrow needs a tweak is arguably correct (although I think fixing the ERML will fix the Scrow)
Saying the cERPPC needs a tweak is arguably correct.
Saying the cGauss needs a tweak is arguably correct.

• Lower the dmg of the ERML by 0.5 or the range to 425
  
• Lower the Torso twist max, torso twist speed, and arm movement of the TW by 10-15%
  
• Increase the spread of the ERPPC to 4/7/4
  
• Lower the damage of the CGauss (and IS Gauss) by 1 point.

Then retest.

So what you're saying is we need to fix basically everything, because it's OP as hell, and yet there are lots of balanced clan stuff.

[Tharnes]

Vassago Rain, on 31 July 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

So what you're saying is we need to fix basically everything, because it's OP as hell, and yet there are lots of balanced clan stuff.

Well you don't understand, Clans aren't "unbalanced", just better - that and only the better players pilot them.

[Heeden]

MischiefSC, on 31 July 2014 - 12:21 AM, said:

Yes... but...

I spent money on MW:O. Don't I deserve an advantage? At least let me have an advantage for a few months. Certainly no more than half a year.

That's fair... right? I spent MONEY. On a GAME. I should get AN ADVANTAGE. If you didn't spend money on MW:O, you should still play but at a disadvantage. Cuz otherwise my advantage wouldn't matter. So it's totally okay. I SPENT MONEY. I SHOULD GET AN ADVANTAGE FOR SEVERAL MONTHS, AT LEAST.



Right?

There's been a few people making this point, another thread on the forum has someone celebrating the fact that segregating drops means he's more likely to get carried now. I suppose there are worse ways for PGI to make money than giving poor (skill wise) pilots an advantage for a while. It's all fun and the recent Clan stomps in the solo queue still weren't as one-sided as being stomped by groups or LRMs in open beta.

[Xeno Phalcon]

worm4981, on 30 July 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Happend quite a few times today. Looks like this:

This accurately illustrates what was wrong with this test: matches were automatically skewed against the IS giving the impression that the clans were more "OP" than preconceptions had already instilled in the masses.

FOUR "champion" mechs, and its highly unlikely any of them were actually owned but were instead trial mechs combined with the FIVE timberwolves the winning team had meant that the teams were horribly unablanced - sub par champion mechs dragging down one team while the other had five very mobile highly customized mechs on a cool map that helped offset the clans innate heat issues.

[Tharnes]

Xeno Phalcon, on 31 July 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

FOUR "champion" mechs, and its highly unlikely any of them were actually owned but were instead trial mechs combined with the FIVE timberwolves

Its always 4-6+ madcats, rest filled with assault-clans. Even mixed pugs look like that.

[Wrenchfarm]

Xeno Phalcon, on 31 July 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

This accurately illustrates what was wrong with this test: matches were automatically skewed against the IS giving the impression that the clans were more "OP" than preconceptions had already instilled in the masses.

FOUR "champion" mechs, and its highly unlikely any of them were actually owned but were instead trial mechs combined with the FIVE timberwolves the winning team had meant that the teams were horribly unablanced - sub par champion mechs dragging down one team while the other had five very mobile highly customized mechs on a cool map that helped offset the clans innate heat issues.

Sure, and what about all the other matches that didn't have 4 champion trial mechs in the mix? Still giant blowouts for the Clans.

Stop pretending, you paid for an advantage and you got it.

[Zypher]

To me it just seems stupid to try and balance Clan and IS so you can play in the same numbers, in the end it will just make playing a Clan mech or IS just too similar. The Clans should have all the benefits from TT, the game should be tech vs numbers in regard to Clan and IS. Something like 9 v 12, or 50% less tonnage for clans on a drop, something to make the factions more unique rather than homogenized. All this talk of balancing the mech, chassis, engines, and weapons is just going to dumb down the game. I would gladly play organized matches on IS vs Clan if the only advantage was superior numbers.

Edited by Zypher, 31 July 2014 - 06:56 AM.

[CeeKay Boques]

I'm pretty sure the Clans will embrace 12 v 10. Its lore based "under dog" based... I want to try it for a weekend anyway...

I just don't know what HoL in IS vs SJr in Clan looks like in the 12v10 world.

[Alex Warden]

shad0w4life, on 30 July 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Then propose a solution to the problems.

read my text that you quoted... i wrote "i´m done"... that includes proposing... did that since CBT, time for me to let go...

[Fanatic]

GalaxyBluestar, on 30 July 2014 - 11:16 PM, said:

snip

Spoiler

makes a difference? wonder how many other varibles influence this "test" we should have stars vs lances and stuff but just how reliable is PGI's telemetry? oh and this one is interestingly the closest tonnage matchup.

Spoiler

and some more Screenshots

IS vs Clan (Tonnage added)

Spoiler

Bonus IS vs IS (Tonnage added)

Spoiler

Edited by Fanatic, 31 July 2014 - 07:04 AM.

[Mavairo]

Tharnes, on 31 July 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

Like it or not, pugs and solo que will make up for 99% of the playerbase. F2P games are full of "noobs", and have to be to exist.
Ignoring problems in pugs is like legging yourself big time.

Except it's not a problem if it's a problem with pugs and not group players.
You balance from the top down. Period. That's how it works in games. Starcraft's done that way for a reason. You don't see blizzard nerfling the zergling because the noobs die to a 7 or 9 pool.

Edited by Mavairo, 31 July 2014 - 07:05 AM.