576 replies to this topic

[Superslicks]

I for one think pgi are letting clan mechs dominate for a reason, the old saying goes if you cant beat them join them. this means more people will buy the clan packages, because they hate getting stomped all the time.

[KharnZor]

Sprouticus, on 04 August 2014 - 05:38 AM, said:

Umm that is 3 things. Two weapons and 1 mech. Every other clan mech is fine, some of them are underpowered in fact. The DW is a turret but goes down REALLY fast to concentrated fire. The Nova has big hitboxes. The Adder is a POS, as is the Summoner, the Kit fox is a great support mech but does not scare anyone. The Clan ERLL is a decent but not great weapon. The cGauss is good but not great. The Clan streaks are kind of meh due to reload time. The clan SRM's are good, except that they are SRM's. The cERSL is terrible. cLRM's are deadly if you are stupid.

the clans are not OP. They need some tweaks IMO, but considering how much potential for balance issues there were with the introduciton of the clans, i think they are pretty close.


People are screaming because they don't have access and they die. That is pretty much the ONLY reason.

The drawbacks of these mechs dont matter to these people, they only want to focus on the omg its p2w. They do not want to hear otherwise.

[Sprouticus]

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

I agree with most of this, except for a few points:

1- The Adder is probably like the IS locust, very underrated, and needs a truly specific mindset to make it work.

2- The Summoner has issues (hadwired JJs, FF instead of Endo, hardpoints that are too low for some lights), but it can be a good second line mech, or a poptart. My personal favorite build with it uses 4ERMLs, and 2UAC5s. It's far from great for a heavy, but it's an excellent second line mech, and skirmisher.

3- The clan Gauss is pretty much an improvement on the IS Gauss. Unless I missed something. It's the same C-Bill cost for 1 slot less, 3 tons less. Yes, it's not a super improvement, but these systems are supposed to be balanced, in-game performance is identical between the two though. It's only in mech construction that a difference can happen. (if the gauss got it's extra slot back, it might not be possible to install on many clan builds.)

Ill be honest, I have not touched my Adders nor my Sommuners, this is strictly from facing them in battles and comparing them to other mechs in the class. The adder is short on hardpoints and worse, slow. The Summoner is...well you outlined the issues. t does nto help that the TW is so much better and makes the Summoner look worse than it really is.

Regarding the cGauss, you have an excellent point, although in the end most mechs can only carry one. If there was a 65 tonner that could carry two, we might have an issue (Loki?). Not sure how PGI can tweak it for balance though. Maybe extend the recharge time?

Details aside, my point is this:

People are all screaming P2W, all up in arms. We KNEW there would be balance issues with clan mechs. It is a shock to absolutely noone. However it is not nearly as bad as I had feared, and the imbalance is quite fixable as I outlined in my initial post.

(As usual) people need to calm down and look at the issue through a critical lens. I will admit I was hoping for quicker response on the balance changes for the clan mechs/weapons. That is uber frustrating. PGI's pace for balance changes has ALWAYS been frustrating through.

Edited by Sprouticus, 04 August 2014 - 09:43 AM.

[KharnZor]

The Summoners usefulness depends on the pilot. Some use it effectively but most however dont or cant.
The JJ changes have made piloting a Summoner a real.....challenge

Edited by KharnZor, 04 August 2014 - 09:47 AM.

[Mystere]

Sprouticus, on 04 August 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

(As usual) people need to calm down and look at the issue through a critical lens.

I think you are expecting too much from many people who frequent these forums:

• "Everyone's a winner!" generation
  
• products of "Helicopter" parenting
  
• "Obviously highly disgruntled but still sticks around" types
  
• well poisoners
  
• 100% freeloaders
  
• Negative Nancies

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 01 August 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

It won't even be possible to start to gather viable data on that though until about February, when cbill versions of all Clan mechs are integrated into the population.

Why are you (and occasionally others) say that these would be released in February? If we used the older Phoenix Pack system, then I guess that would be true, but I suggest you take a look at the schedule. The Timberwolf is coming for C-bills to the masses in November.

It's still long, but nonetheless the clan mechs are all available before December.

[Bilbo]

Superslicks, on 04 August 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

I for one think pgi are letting clan mechs dominate for a reason, the old saying goes if you cant beat them join them. this means more people will buy the clan packages, because they hate getting stomped all the time.

Certainly explains why I've only played ~10 games in Super-OP mechs.

[KharnZor]

Deathlike, on 04 August 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Why are you (and occasionally others) say that these would be released in February? If we used the older Phoenix Pack system, then I guess that would be true, but I suggest you take a look at the schedule. The Timberwolf is coming for C-bills to the masses in November.

It's still long, but nonetheless the clan mechs are all available before December.

All by December? damn. I'd think they should amp that up a fair bit

[Deathlike]

KharnZor, on 04 August 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

All by December? damn. I'd think they should amp that up a fair bit

You're preaching to the choir, but on patch day Tuesday (tomorrow), they will put the Summoner up for MC, and the Kitfox (finally) for C-bills. That's the current schedule (it might actually be next week, on a non-patch Tuesday).

Edited by Deathlike, 04 August 2014 - 10:35 AM.

[Revener]

TBH I don´t find the clan mech that OP depending on the situation, sure then can load up on tons of weapons but then they overheat (yes they do).
And even though you can change omnipods to switch hardpoints around ther is still the issue with fixed slots and equipment that prevents you to build certain ways (not like IS where you are free to put stuff where you want if you have the hardpoint or free slot) wich in turn make them have alot of arm mounted weapons.

Also most of the chassis are built in a way that makes it hard to shield the torso sections from damage.

So they are easy to disarm since they have arm weapons
and they are easy to engine kill because most can't shield the torso and they all have XL engines also you do not want to use your arms as shield since you have your main weapons there.

The arm mounted weapons sit rathe low too so it is hard too peek overa hill and shoot without showing the whole torso.

Sure they are scary in the wrong situation but you can work around it.

[Jman5]

mech release schedule:

[Zyllos]

Honestly, I am an IS mech only player.

I think IS mechs have too open customization.

A Battlemech needs hardpoint size limitations.
A Battlemech can only modify engine size by Default Engine +/- (Weight of Chassis * 50%).

This would limit the overly crazy customization of IS mechs to actually feel like a Battlemech and Omnimechs having locked internal structure but the hardpoints are completely customizable through Omnipods without the need to worry about weapon sizes.

But to balance this out, some type of mechanic needs to be added to spread damage as mechs would move slower overall.

I am sure everyone would be on board for this...

[IraqiWalker]

Sprouticus, on 04 August 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

Ill be honest, I have not touched my Adders nor my Sommuners, this is strictly from facing them in battles and comparing them to other mechs in the class. The adder is short on hardpoints and worse, slow. The Summoner is...well you outlined the issues. t does nto help that the TW is so much better and makes the Summoner look worse than it really is.

Regarding the cGauss, you have an excellent point, although in the end most mechs can only carry one. If there was a 65 tonner that could carry two, we might have an issue (Loki?). Not sure how PGI can tweak it for balance though. Maybe extend the recharge time?

Details aside, my point is this:

People are all screaming P2W, all up in arms. We KNEW there would be balance issues with clan mechs. It is a shock to absolutely noone. However it is not nearly as bad as I had feared, and the imbalance is quite fixable as I outlined in my initial post.

(As usual) people need to calm down and look at the issue through a critical lens. I will admit I was hoping for quicker response on the balance changes for the clan mechs/weapons. That is uber frustrating. PGI's pace for balance changes has ALWAYS been frustrating through.

Honestly, considering PGI's track record I was expecting the clan mechs release to be a whole sale slaughter that is so one sided the player base would combust. When we went ont he test servers I was stunned, and flabbergasted for the 2-4 hours I was on. The mechs handled beautifully, and the weapons worked rather well, but most of all, I did not feel anything was as super imbalanced as I expected it to be. In fact, for that entire week, I was singing PGI's praises everywhere.

Even now, the clan mechs and weapons are not super OP. They need some really small tweaks on maybe three weapons, but that's about it. Most people are blowing things waaaaaay out of proportion.


Now as far as the mechs go. The adder is slow, however, it should work in a more indirect fire support role compared to the KFX. The Kit Fox can run close support without a problem, mostly because it can mount AMS comfortably, can also mount ECM, and has JJs. The Adder has to either be way out back, or super close. Super close, it's limitations become too much of a problem, however, at long range it can be a great mech.

The Summoner is overshadowed by the T-Wolf, which was to be expected. Everyone loves the T-Wolf more, and it's a great mech all around. However, the problem with the summoner is that it's out-gunned by most IS heavies, even those lighter than it. Forcing people who play it like a traditional heavy to suffer greatly. It should not be played like a traditional heavy. It actually pilots closer to IS mediums than heavies.

You want to use hit and fade tactics, you want to wolf-pack, and you want to always flank, and escort. Not lead the charge, like a Cataphract.

I like the clan gauss as is, however, I think it should have SHORTER charge retention time. Right now, most people want charge retention times to increase, so they can use the weapon better. Since clan weapons are supposed to require more skill to get the best out of them. Having the weapon charge at a similar speed as regular gauss, but have a shorter window to fire, would really throw people off their game with it, and make it require more skill to use.

As for your last bit: You expected too much common sense from these forums.

Mystere, on 04 August 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

I think you are expecting too much from many people who frequent these forums:

• "Everyone's a winner!" generation
  
• products of "Helicopter" parenting
  
• "Obviously highly disgruntled but still sticks around" types
  
• well poisoners
  
• 100% freeloaders
  
• Negative Nancies

Sad but true.

[Jonny Taco]

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

2- The Summoner has issues (hadwired JJs, FF instead of Endo, hardpoints that are too low for some lights), but it can be a good second line mech, or a poptart. My personal favorite build with it uses 4ERMLs, and 2UAC5s. It's far from great for a heavy, but it's an excellent second line mech, and skirmisher.

Here is what would fix the Summoner...

1. Make only three of it's JJ fixed, the other two should be there for build diversity/ niche options.

2. Allow the Summoner to buy endo.

3. Remove quirks that are currently present (rof% ect) to allow for the lack of 1 and 2 as well as very slightly increase the number of hard points available on a select few variants.


The end result is a mech that will generally have 1 ton more pod space than a comparable JJ tbr of course with less armor. This means that if you want JJ on a clan heavy, the SMN will actually have very, very slightly more tonnage for weapons. IF you want a clan heavy with maximum firepower, the TBR fits that build due to being able to free up 2 tons more pod space (no fixed JJ) while also having more hard points.

[Revener]

Zyllos, on 04 August 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

But to balance this out, some type of mechanic needs to be added to spread damage as mechs would move slower overall.

I am sure everyone would be on board for this...

Well thats about the gun converge wich there have been quite a debate about.

I don't like that all the gun converge either, that should be difference between 1 big gun and alot of small guns.
AC 20 hits 1 location that hurts, 5 medium lazers hits all over.

1 way around that would be what have been sugested and only letting the arm weapons converge and the rest of the weapons go in a straight line. Although they would stil mostly hit one location like that.

Another way would be to do like the do in alot of other games, where unless you stand still and aim you hit a larger area, basically you get a bigger reticle to show the scatter area and it grows smaller the longer you aim. That would also get rid of alot of those really silly shots where you poke out behind a hill 800m away and bam lost and arm.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 04 August 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Why are you (and occasionally others) say that these would be released in February? If we used the older Phoenix Pack system, then I guess that would be true, but I suggest you take a look at the schedule. The Timberwolf is coming for C-bills to the masses in November.

It's still long, but nonetheless the clan mechs are all available before December.

February because the last clan mech comes out end of November and it'll take 90 days (at 10-20 mill per chassis, so 30 to 60 million cbills per mech per player for all the big boys) minimum for Clan mechs to integrate into the general population.

You can buy a TWolf in November for cbills. It'll be February before pretty much everyone who's going to get them has them and has them leveled. At that point you'll get a solid view of where they fit in the population. Prior to that you'll get a mix of people grinding them to level or people who are getting them but can't afford them yet. TW, Dire Wolves, Warhawks, all that. Dec/Jan will literally be the *least* reliable because that'll be the mass-grinding of the last of the Clan mechs. February they should be mostly ground out and people will be playing what they want, not what they're working on.

If whatever mech is coming out in February comes out and TWs are still 75% of heavies... yeah. There's a problem.

[Gremlich Johns]

AntharPrime, on 30 July 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

Maybe they should make IS double heat sinks full double instead of 1.4 and see how that works out.

AND make them only take up two slots so we can put them in the legs (where they can really benefit any time they are in water.)

[ExplodedZombie]

Move along. Nothing to see here. Clan isn't OP....right?


Sure the top players might be able to still rock IS and dominate, but in a pug match, Clan mechs seem to dominate. That's my experience, anyways.

[Roland]

ExplodedZombie, on 04 August 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Move along. Nothing to see here. Clan isn't OP....right?


Sure the top players might be able to still rock IS and dominate, but in a pug match, Clan mechs seem to dominate. That's my experience, anyways.

The top players actually have come out and stated pretty explicitly that the clan mechs are the strongest mechs at the moment, and once they are available for league play I think most folks expect mechs like the MadCat to be the single most widely used heavy chassis... probably the ONLY heavy chassis used, since it can do pretty much everything, better than other heavy mechs.

[IraqiWalker]

Gremlich Johns, on 04 August 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

AND make them only take up two slots so we can put them in the legs (where they can really benefit any time they are in water.)

Why do so many people NOT understand that IS DHS are 2.0?

They start as 1.4, but with double basics you get a heat efficiency that is actually around 2.2. Do actual math people.

EDIT: also, clan DHS start as 1.4 as well.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 04 August 2014 - 01:49 PM.