576 replies to this topic

[Revener]

Engine double heatsinks are 2.0 the ones outside 1.4

so a big engine that have 10 internal heatsink will get 20 not 14, then anything added on is only 1.4.

we DO NOT need better heatsinks in the game, mech allready throw enough damage around way too fast.
What is needed though is more overheat penalty, it is way to easy to just pile as much weapons you can ona mech and pop around a corner and shoot once or twice and then overheat without reprecusion.

over 100% heat should have severe drawback so ppl learn not to overheat. Seriously over 100% heat and your reactor should go pop!

Edited by Revener, 04 August 2014 - 03:32 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

Revener, on 04 August 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

we DO NOT need better heatsinks in the game, mech allready throw enough damage around way too fast.
What is needed though is more overheat penalty, it is way to easy to just pile as much weapons you can ona mech and pop around a corner and shoot once or twice and then overheat without reprecusion.

over 100% heat should have severe drawback so ppl learn not to overheat. Seriously over 1090% heat and your reactor should go pop!

The original overhaeat penalty was that once you hit 100%, your ammo and other components would explode, being an almost guaranteed death scentence. Combine that with only SHS available at the time, and you had people being very careful with their heat, but most agreed that it was a bit too severe and without any real warning for newcomers, so PGI decided in one of their moments of brilliance (sarcasm) to drop it completely.

What I think could be useful would be that shutdown occurs at 80%. Until 90%, each stack of your ammo must win a detonation check at up to 5% each second (contained overheat). Up to 95%, the increase is much more severe, increasing the detonation chance to up to 20% each check (dangerous overheat). Energy weapons will also be forced to check for critical meltdown. From that point, the chances will increase at an extreme pace, hitting 60% at 100% heat and maxing out at 100% detonation chance at 105% heat (critical overheat).

Using this, we could make some changes to the override function. Pressing the button once would engage partial override, which would allow you to go to 90% before the 'Mech shuts down automatically. Pressing the button twice would engage full override, which disables automatic shutdown completely.

This would do nothing against the insane heat cap, but it would put a limiter on high heat alphas past a certain point of heat.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 04 August 2014 - 03:29 PM.

[Revener]

Yeah I remember building a mech in MW3 that exploded if I Alphad

TT have bad stuff happen to your mech at incrasing intervals the more you go above your max heatsink value .
Also you loose movement speed

[Orkhepaj]

Technoviking, on 30 July 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

Wait.... pure pug...


So the players that love the game and spent money on it and probably play all the time...

Vs the players that still only have IS mechs because they play a couple times a month mixed with IS purists.


I could see that being very stompy, at this juncture.

ah another arrogant elitist *******

[IraqiWalker]

Revener, on 04 August 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

over 100% heat should have severe drawback so ppl learn not to overheat. Seriously over 100% heat and your reactor should go pop!

Yep, but that has the downside of new players spazzing out. So now the penalty starts over 120%. Then again, if we followed TT, around 30% heat retained after 10 seconds, and we'd start seeing adverse effects on the mech. (unless TSM was installed, then HECK YEAH! HEAT!)

SethAbercromby, on 04 August 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

The original overhaeat penalty was that once you hit 100%, your ammo and other components would explode, being an almost guaranteed death scentence. Combine that with only SHS available at the time, and you had people being very careful with their heat, but most agreed that it was a bit too severe and without any real warning for newcomers, so PGI decided in one of their moments of brilliance (sarcasm) to drop it completely.

What I think could be useful would be that shutdown occurs at 80%. Until 90%, each stack of your ammo must win a detonation check at up to 5% each second (contained overheat). Up to 95%, the increase is much more severe, increasing the detonation chance to up to 20% each check (dangerous overheat). Energy weapons will also be forced to check for critical meltdown. From that point, the chances will increase at an extreme pace, hitting 60% at 100% heat and maxing out at 100% detonation chance at 105% heat (critical overheat).

Using this, we could make some changes to the override function. Pressing the button once would engage partial override, which would allow you to go to 90% before the 'Mech shuts down automatically. Pressing the button twice would engage full override, which disables automatic shutdown completely.

This would do nothing against the insane heat cap, but it would put a limiter on high heat alphas past a certain point of heat.

I kinda like these ideas, the problem is they are percentage based. Which doesn't solve the problem of the high heat cap. Why should I worry that much about override if I can toss an alpha, hit 30% and start cooling off. It would bring more dynamics into the game, but at the same time, weapons don't generate enough heat for many alphas to be a threat.

[SethAbercromby]

Orkhepaj, on 04 August 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

ah another arrogant elitist *******

"Ah another ignorant whiny *******" is what people will probably say in response.

We all can start the insulting, but that will do nothing for this conversation. Any metric used right now is imbalanced and lopsided simply because of complete beginners in trial 'Mechs, of which I've been seeing more than usual the past few days (or maybe I'm just really taking notice of them). Completely taking out overall skill distribution of all other players in the two camps (which is also a huge thing to consider though), this percentage of complete noobs already puts IS at a disadvantage by default.

IraqiWalker, on 04 August 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

I kinda like these ideas, the problem is they are percentage based. Which doesn't solve the problem of the high heat cap. Why should I worry that much about override if I can toss an alpha, hit 30% and start cooling off. It would bring more dynamics into the game, but at the same time, weapons don't generate enough heat for many alphas to be a threat.

I am aware that the heat cap is our real problem and using fixed values would solve most of our balancing values, but the increased heat cap is here to stay and the best we can do is to at least use it in a way that hurts new players the least.

[IraqiWalker]

SethAbercromby, on 04 August 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

"Ah another ignorant whiny *******" is what people will probably say in response.

We all can start the insulting, but that will do nothing for this conversation. Any metric used right now is imbalanced and lopsided simply because of complete beginners in trial 'Mechs, of which I've been seeing more than usual the past few days (or maybe I'm just really taking notice of them). Completely taking out overall skill distribution of all other players in the two camps (which is also a huge thing to consider though), this percentage of complete noobs already puts IS at a disadvantage by default.

i remember someone did the math on around 1000 or so matches, and what they came up with, is that a mechs' combat efficiency drops down to 60% or less if it's a (C) variant, mostly because new players are in them, and they make a massive impact. Especially when they are running in heavies and assaults (like the death trap stalker)

[Sprouticus]

Roland, on 02 August 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

"Except for the part where the CTF poptarts better, and will usually win a duel against that T-Wolf."
Lolololololololololo

Roland, aside from the TW and maybe the SCrow (I sitll think the Scrow would not be OP if the cERML got a nerf since it has no JJ's) which clan mechs will be used in competative play?

The Nova is ok, but I would rather take the Meta Shawk for long range and an AC20 mech or SRM boat of some kind for short range..

The Summoner and adder will never get taken.

You might see 1 kitfox for support, but with LRM's being DOA there is not much reason to and the IS lights are far better for scouting/harassment. Just as easy to use a spider for ECM cover.

The Masakari is outclassed by the Victors by a large margin and the DW is just a target at the high levels.

In the end, the TW and the cERML are the problem, not 'clan mechs'.

[Roland]

Sprouticus, on 05 August 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

Roland, aside from the TW and maybe the SCrow (I sitll think the Scrow would not be OP if the cERML got a nerf since it has no JJ's) which clan mechs will be used in competative play?

I don't play competitively any more, as most of my unit has been driven off, so I can only speak based upon fundamental aspects of the game.

However, the answer to this, I suspect, is none of them. Perhaps the DWolf, just because it can potentially serve as a huge piledriver in the right hands, but its lack of mobility can ultimately tie a team down. Some teams would be able to play around such a thing, but many wouldn't.

The big win mechs in the Clan pack are the TWolf, and the Ryoken.

Quote

The Nova is ok, but I would rather take the Meta Shawk for long range and an AC20 mech or SRM boat of some kind for short range..

Both are fairly weak compared to the Ryoken.. especially if you're planning on running a close range infighter. A ryoken with 4 ERML's and 6 SRM 6's will obliterate a Shadowhawk... and most other mechs in the game.

Quote

The Summoner and adder will never get taken.

Agreed, they're pretty garbage.

Quote

You might see 1 kitfox for support, but with LRM's being DOA there is not much reason to and the IS lights are far better for scouting/harassment. Just as easy to use a spider for ECM cover.

The KFox has a role as a light, but it's much more of a support light than a scout, due to its low speed.

Quote

In the end, the TW and the cERML are the problem, not 'clan mechs'.

I'd put the Ryoken into the group of very powerful mechs as well.

Although, at this point, you're saying the same thing I've been saying for weeks now... Saying "Clan mechs are X" is a silly statement, regardless of whether X is OP for Weak, because the clan mechs are not all equal.

That being said, while the summoner is pretty bad, it's really no WORSE than numerous IS mechs, like the TBolt, or the Quickdraw, or the Dragon. It's just another one of the garbage mechs on the pile of trash that gets outshined by a small group of ubermechs.


And beyond that, the bigger problem, rather than certain clan mechs being strong, is really not that they're strong, but rather that you only allow people who pay real money to drive them, clearly establishing a P2W precedent (or rather reinforcing it, since certain hero mechs established it previously).

Oh, one thing..
I don't think the CERML needs to be nerfed at all.

I think the IS ML needs to be restored to its original statistics.

[Sprouticus]

Roland, on 05 August 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

I don't play competitively any more, as most of my unit has been driven off, so I can only speak based upon fundamental aspects of the game.

However, the answer to this, I suspect, is none of them. Perhaps the DWolf, just because it can potentially serve as a huge piledriver in the right hands, but its lack of mobility can ultimately tie a team down. Some teams would be able to play around such a thing, but many wouldn't.

The big win mechs in the Clan pack are the TWolf, and the Ryoken.



Both are fairly weak compared to the Ryoken.. especially if you're planning on running a close range infighter. A ryoken with 4 ERML's and 6 SRM 6's will obliterate a Shadowhawk... and most other mechs in the game.



Agreed, they're pretty garbage.



The KFox has a role as a light, but it's much more of a support light than a scout, due to its low speed.




I'd put the Ryoken into the group of very powerful mechs as well.

Although, at this point, you're saying the same thing I've been saying for weeks now... Saying "Clan mechs are X" is a silly statement, regardless of whether X is OP for Weak, because the clan mechs are not all equal.

That being said, while the summoner is pretty bad, it's really no WORSE than numerous IS mechs, like the TBolt, or the Quickdraw, or the Dragon. It's just another one of the garbage mechs on the pile of trash that gets outshined by a small group of ubermechs.


And beyond that, the bigger problem, rather than certain clan mechs being strong, is really not that they're strong, but rather that you only allow people who pay real money to drive them, clearly establishing a P2W precedent (or rather reinforcing it, since certain hero mechs established it previously).

Oh, one thing..
I don't think the CERML needs to be nerfed at all.

I think the IS ML needs to be restored to its original statistics.

I am 100% in agreement that the ISML needs to get put back to its initial stats.


But the reason the sCROW (and to a lesser extent the TW w/ 2xERPPC + 4cERML) is so powerful is that the cERML is by far the most flexible weapons in the game. it has ZERO downside.

It has the range to fight in the range envelope of most of the maps in the game
It weighs a measly 1 ton
It is hot, but any large mech can take enough HS to boat 4-5 of them without heat issues.
It has a better ghost heat that the ISLL (its direct competitor)
It does amazing damage, especially when you boat 4 or 5 of them.
It is small enough that you can take a few on every mech and it will make a real difference in alpha/DPS.

The only downside is heat, and that is really easy to negate.

IMO They need to:

increase the beam time tfrom 1.3s to 1.4s
Increase the heat from 5 to 5.25 or even 5.5

That makes those ERML heacy mechs far less viable for infighting.


the clan SRM's are pretty bad ass too, but they do suffer greatly from spread. Try a SCrow ith 5ERML and an lbx20. Seriously, it is a killing machine even with the lbx spread.


as for the TW...I honestly have NO idea how to fix that beast. It literally has no downside. the JJ nerf has helped curtail the jump sniping, but the hot bixes, turn rate, speed, etc etc are all superior to every other heavy in the game. I personally do about 2x the damage in a TW as I would in any other heavy.

Maybe change the hitboxes and give it a huge CT similar to the MW4 MadCat?

Edited by Sprouticus, 05 August 2014 - 05:41 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Roland, on 05 August 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

Both are fairly weak compared to the Ryoken.. especially if you're planning on running a close range infighter. A ryoken with 4 ERML's and 6 SRM 6's will obliterate a Shadowhawk... and most other mechs in the game.

If you've followed the competitive scene, you'd realize that a ryoken wouldn't get close enough to the Shawk to deal damage, any charge like that is certain death.

The main use for most JJ mechs is as mobile firing platform, and the Shawk with it's high mounted ballistics, and energy weapons (in the case of the 2K), is still the king of the medium class. The SCR is one of the most powerful ground-bound mediums, however, even it, is second best to the Shawk.

Roland, on 05 August 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

That being said, while the summoner is pretty bad, it's really no WORSE than numerous IS mechs, like the TBolt, or the Quickdraw, or the Dragon. It's just another one of the garbage mechs on the pile of trash that gets outshined by a small group of ubermechs.

I wouldn't put the T-Bolt in that list. It's still better than the summoner, sure 2 variants don't have JJs, but they all can bring a lot more firepower to the fight than the Summoner can.

Roland, on 05 August 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

And beyond that, the bigger problem, rather than certain clan mechs being strong, is really not that they're strong, but rather that you only allow people who pay real money to drive them, clearly establishing a P2W precedent (or rather reinforcing it, since certain hero mechs established it previously).

Most hero mechs are inferior to the C-Bill variants, yes, the DS turned out rather powerful for the poptart meta, however, most heroes are far from being pay-to-win.

As for the clan mechs being Pay-to-win. We've already had this discussion, and I strongly believe you're wrong. Yes, they're only available at the moment for the players that pre-ordered them, but that's what pre-ordering implies, you get to try things out, before most others.

No, they're not pay to win, because as you stated, only two of them are powerful, and of those 2, only one is very strong, and it still has one of the biggest CTs out there.

Roland, on 05 August 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

Oh, one thing..
I don't think the CERML needs to be nerfed at all.

I think the IS ML needs to be restored to its original statistics.

I completely agree with this statement. That slight tweak would actually bring a lot of balance into the ML scene.

Same thing with IS SLs. Pretty sure it should be 1 heat.

Sprouticus, on 05 August 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

as for the TW...I honestly have NO idea how to fix that beast. It literally has no downside. the JJ nerf has helped curtail the jump sniping, but the hot bixes, turn rate, speed, etc etc are all superior to every other heavy in the game. I personally do about 2x the damage in a TW as I would in any other heavy.

Maybe change the hitboxes and give it a huge CT similar to the MW4 MadCat?

It already has a huge CT, one that it pretty much can't protect even with torso twisting (the nose is still big enough to hit clearly from the side)

I think it's either similar to the CPLT CT hitbox we have right now, or a median between Stalker and catapult.

[Roland]

Honestly, I'm not in favor of nerfing the ERML.. the ERML is a good, mid-range weapon.. We need more solid mid range weaponry, not less.

In terms of nerfing the TW, I think the main issue is probably the introduction of the S variant with JJ's...

But at the same time, I absolutely HATE the JJ nerf... It's a terrible change, which utterly fails to really address the issue it was meant to deal with.

With 3 JJ's on my TWOlf, I can still jumpsnipe fairly easily... I have enough thrust to get up and down, with enough time for the shot to stabilize.

But what I cant' do easilly is simply manuever up hills.... Because the JJ's don't really create enough upward movement. I was struggling last night trying to clear one of the ridges on Alpine with my TWolf... I could see the top of the ridge, but couldn't QUITE get enough velocity to jump up it and clear it, and when I landed I'd slide back down to where I was.

It was a stupidly frustrating experience.


If they want to stop jump snipers, they just need to add the shake back in for the whole jump... and then they can make the JJ's actually FUNCTION FOR JUMPING without having to worry about it dominating the entire game.

As it stands, they've basically ruined JJ's for mobility, while still allowing them for jumpsniping.. It's idiotic.

IraqiWalker, on 05 August 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

If you've followed the competitive scene, you'd realize that a ryoken wouldn't get close enough to the Shawk to deal damage, any charge like that is certain death.

THe ryoken can move at over 100 kph.
With that kind of mobility, you absolutely can close on virtually any position...

You seem to be under the impression that you need to run across open ground to close on a position. That's pretty much not the case on any map in the entire game at this point.

IraqiWalker, on 05 August 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

It already has a huge CT, one that it pretty much can't protect even with torso twisting (the nose is still big enough to hit clearly from the side)

Honestly dude, I don't know if you've never played the TWolf, or if you just have no idea how to drive it, or if you are just lying.. but this kind of statement is nonsense.

The TWolf's CT is extremely easy to protect, just like the Stalker's.

[Sprouticus]

Roland, on 05 August 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

Honestly, I'm not in favor of nerfing the ERML.. the ERML is a good, mid-range weapon.. We need more solid mid range weaponry, not less.

In terms of nerfing the TW, I think the main issue is probably the introduction of the S variant with JJ's...

But at the same time, I absolutely HATE the JJ nerf... It's a terrible change, which utterly fails to really address the issue it was meant to deal with.

With 3 JJ's on my TWOlf, I can still jumpsnipe fairly easily... I have enough thrust to get up and down, with enough time for the shot to stabilize.

But what I cant' do easilly is simply manuever up hills.... Because the JJ's don't really create enough upward movement. I was struggling last night trying to clear one of the ridges on Alpine with my TWolf... I could see the top of the ridge, but couldn't QUITE get enough velocity to jump up it and clear it, and when I landed I'd slide back down to where I was.

It was a stupidly frustrating experience.


If they want to stop jump snipers, they just need to add the shake back in for the whole jump... and then they can make the JJ's actually FUNCTION FOR JUMPING without having to worry about it dominating the entire game.

As it stands, they've basically ruined JJ's for mobility, while still allowing them for jumpsniping.. It's idiotic.


THe ryoken can move at over 100 kph.
With that kind of mobility, you absolutely can close on virtually any position...

You seem to be under the impression that you need to run across open ground to close on a position. That's pretty much not the case on any map in the entire game at this point.


Honestly dude, I don't know if you've never played the TWolf, or if you just have no idea how to drive it, or if you are just lying.. but this kind of statement is nonsense.

The TWolf's CT is extremely easy to protect, just like the Stalker's.

I have seen almost zero jump sniping since the change. Mind you I play at lower Elo than you, but it has curtailed the jump sniping at the lower Elo's. And from others in my unit who ARE in those higher Elo's, jump sniping is no longer the best option most of the time. It is doable but there are better ways to fight. Which I suppose is the point.

I do agree that the change was too much and that just making it shake the entire jump would be better. But I think we are in the minority.

[CyclonerM]

Tharnes, on 30 July 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

The balance is completely broken currently. There are teams full of Timbers running around, alphastriking the IS mechs to shreds, they just don't overheat enough.
60€ give you a guaranteed 600+ damage, no matter how bad you play the clan heavys/assaults. This is pure p2w, no excuse for it.

I must be a very very bad pilot if i often get less than 600 damage and i overheat sometimes.. :/

Whenever i read "Clan PW2" my soul cries.

[Roland]

Sprouticus, on 05 August 2014 - 06:02 AM, said:

I have seen almost zero jump sniping since the change. Mind you I play at lower Elo than you, but it has curtailed the jump sniping at the lower Elo's. And from others in my unit who ARE in those higher Elo's, jump sniping is no longer the best option most of the time. It is doable but there are better ways to fight. Which I suppose is the point.

I do agree that the change was too much and that just making it shake the entire jump would be better. But I think we are in the minority.

At this point I think Elo in pug matches doesn't mean anything. I'm pretty sure the playerbase is small enough that they are throwing everyone into one big pot.

Like I said though, it's still possible to jumpsnipe. It is perhaps a little harder to do so, but it's not impossible.

Meanwhile, using JJ's for their intended purpose, which is navigating terrain, is all but impossible now.The fact that I can have a full JJ charge, with 3 JJ's on a TWolf, and be unable to clear a ridge which is no higher than the top of my own mech, is ridiculous.

[Revener]

Sprouticus, on 05 August 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

as for the TW...I honestly have NO idea how to fix that beast. It literally has no downside. the JJ nerf has helped curtail the jump sniping, but the hot bixes, turn rate, speed, etc etc are all superior to every other heavy in the game. I personally do about 2x the damage in a TW as I would in any other heavy.

Maybe change the hitboxes and give it a huge CT similar to the MW4 MadCat?

it already have a Huge CT, that you can not hide with torso twist.... the CT is almost always the first thing to go in every single match on both mine an other TWs I see.

Same with most other clanmechs.

[IraqiWalker]

Roland, on 05 August 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

But at the same time, I absolutely HATE the JJ nerf... It's a terrible change, which utterly fails to really address the issue it was meant to deal with.

With 3 JJ's on my TWOlf, I can still jumpsnipe fairly easily... I have enough thrust to get up and down, with enough time for the shot to stabilize.

But what I cant' do easilly is simply manuever up hills.... Because the JJ's don't really create enough upward movement. I was struggling last night trying to clear one of the ridges on Alpine with my TWolf... I could see the top of the ridge, but couldn't QUITE get enough velocity to jump up it and clear it, and when I landed I'd slide back down to where I was.

It was a stupidly frustrating experience.

If they want to stop jump snipers, they just need to add the shake back in for the whole jump... and then they can make the JJ's actually FUNCTION FOR JUMPING without having to worry about it dominating the entire game.

As it stands, they've basically ruined JJ's for mobility, while still allowing them for jumpsniping.. It's idiotic.

Agree with that 100%.

Roland, on 05 August 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

THe ryoken can move at over 100 kph.
With that kind of mobility, you absolutely can close on virtually any position...

You seem to be under the impression that you need to run across open ground to close on a position. That's pretty much not the case on any map in the entire game at this point.

No I understand that, however, most teams set up firing lines where they force you to either funnel through narrow terrain to charge them, or run across at least some open terrain, and lose a few mechs before you get to fire back.

Yes, in PuGs it can be quite effective, but if there is any kind of coordination on the team you are facing, getting within 500 meters is not going to be easy at all.

Roland, on 05 August 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

Honestly dude, I don't know if you've never played the TWolf, or if you just have no idea how to drive it, or if you are just lying.. but this kind of statement is nonsense.

The TWolf's CT is extremely easy to protect, just like the Stalker's.

Yeah, That's why I keep hitting it even while the pilot is trying to torso twist.

Keep in mind, I do not pilot T-Wolves. I just hunt them with my Orion. (I only bought up to the Direwolf pack, though I am thinking of upgrading to the Adder pack.)