118 replies to this topic

[Torgun]

Viktor Drake, on 01 August 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

This is what I am talking about about mass psychology and the fact that a mech is popular doesn't always mean that it is actually better.

In the end we're weighing tons of people just imagining the TW is one of the best mechs vs you and a couple others not being able to run it well. I have to say I feel confident which I find more likely.

[Marmon Rzohr]

The TW really is too good when it comes to mobility. If they made the speed tweak speed 81 and adjust the twist rate a bit it should be ok. Nerfing hitboxes is a HORRIBLE idea. All mechs deserve great hitboxes like that. It makes piloting them and shooting them more rewarding.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

I also tried to see the Clanmechs and IS mechs in a line. Fact is that I made more high damage games since I used the Clans than before. Why? I simpel played one day my IS mechs and felt the difference. Since then....you Play the Clanmechs a bit differrent...and they are abel to deal a lot of damage more than IS mechs. That is not bad. Thats what they are designed for. They don t have to bee equal.

[Vassago Rain]

Marc von der Heide, on 01 August 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

I also tried to see the Clanmechs and IS mechs in a line. Fact is that I made more high damage games since I used the Clans than before. Why? I simpel played one day my IS mechs and felt the difference. Since then....you Play the Clanmechs a bit differrent...and they are abel to deal a lot of damage more than IS mechs. That is not bad. Thats what they are designed for. They don t have to bee equal.

Yeah, I mean, I can't wait for CW.

Clan on clan on clan on clan on clan. I will aff neg you so hard, star captain.

Inner sphere? What's an inner sphere, and what does it look like?

[Angel of Annihilation]

Torgun, on 01 August 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

In the end we're weighing tons of people just imagining the TW is one of the best mechs vs you and a couple others not being able to run it well. I have to say I feel confident which I find more likely.

Not denying that this may be truth but what I am saying is how much of that truth is based on all the people who don't own clan mechs whining it is OPed and then how much is based on people who own them but base their opinion mostly on the paper stats (which do look very good on paper).

Keep in mind, the reason I find the Battlemaster performing better is due mostly to the Battlemaster being able to protect its torso better. I also find that the medium lasers being located high up on the torso of the Battlemaster gives it a major advantage in alot of close range engagements as compared to the much lower mounted weapons on the Timber Wolf. These are all subtle differences that aren't readily apparent and will absolutely not show up if your just looking at the stats.

In any case, if you just look at the stats on the Timber Wolf, it is obviously a better mech than the Battlemaster. Then if you go online your going to see a hundred more posts, many if not most of them from players who don't even own the Timber Wolf, claiming it is OPed and the absolute best mech in the game. This is POWERFUL advertising and such advertising makes it easy to believe what your seeing must be true even if the reality doesn't necessarily back it up.

If you don't believe powerful advertising works, then ask yourself why companies pay $4 million dollars plus for a Superbowl commercial.

Anyway, my point is, alot of the hype about the Timberwolf is based on testimony from people who don't own one or the paper stats which obviously point to better numbers. Most of the hype isn't from people who are actually playing a Timber Wolf. In fact the majority of posts I see from people using them state that at best the Timber Wolf is a good mech but hardly deserving of the reputation it has. However, those people are shouted down as posting this information in order to protect their over powered mechs.

Just one final note. I am absolutely not saying that the Timber Wolf sucks. It is absolutely one of the best mechs in the game. What I am saying is that there are actually better mechs, including several IS designs and that about 70% of the hype is unfounded. I am also saying they aren't massively OPed. That is about as fair an evaluation as I can give and I just don't understand why people can't accept that they are currently massively over hyped.

[Jon Gotham]

OP, I personally feel you are just a better BM pilot. In my eyes what makes the TW op is: Heavy mech armour and survivability. Near assault level firepower. Medium mech speed and agility (around say the mid speed meds like an 89kph shadowhawk say).

You may not think the TW is op when you compare it to your BM, but try to fight one in a hunchback or a cent....the TW is as FAST AS YOU ARE with nearly the same agility, with MORE ARMOUR and MORE GUNS. Why on earth would you take a medium to be a striker/flanker when you could take yet another TW?
Only answer there is you have to as dictated by 4x3:)
Put at least an average player in one, and watch them damage numbers fly. Other heavy mechs have to sacrifice SOMETHING to gain such an edge. A Jaeger for example has to lay a careful game of armour/engine balance....or a cataphract for example if it wants decent firepower tends to be slower, or if it wants speed it loses guns....TW? NOPE^^

Your average kills might be more and your damage, but that one fight where your BM might struggle the TW simply dominates. It simply excels in too many different areas.

[Ecrof]

I can make a Locust look pretty good. my kdr is 1.0 W/L 1.25 and average damage is only 200 average about 250/450 minus being one shot killed. Distracting the entire enemy team has to count for something. I do not consider my self consistently good, it all depends on how well my brain is working. I think i'm stuck in the noob match making.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Marc von der Heide, on 01 August 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

I also tried to see the Clanmechs and IS mechs in a line. Fact is that I made more high damage games since I used the Clans than before. Why? I simpel played one day my IS mechs and felt the difference. Since then....you Play the Clanmechs a bit differrent...and they are abel to deal a lot of damage more than IS mechs. That is not bad. Thats what they are designed for. They don t have to bee equal.

I mentioned this but my damage output for both the Battlemaster and the Timber Wolf are near the same. The difference is the kill rates are much, much higher with the Battlemaster. The reason for this is because from everything I have seen and tested, IS weapons allow for much better concentration of firepower. In general Clan mechs seem to put out more damage on a ton for ton basis, but that doesn't equal kills and kills are primarily what wins a battle (a dead enemy can't fire back after all).

Of course this was designed in to help balance the clan weaponry against IS weapons but it is a factor that you cannot forget when your comparing Clan to IS mechs. Basically in my opinion a Clan mech has to do like 10%-20% more damage to get the same kill results.

kamiko kross, on 01 August 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

OP, I personally feel you are just a better BM pilot. In my eyes what makes the TW op is: Heavy mech armour and survivability. Near assault level firepower. Medium mech speed and agility (around say the mid speed meds like an 89kph shadowhawk say).

You may not think the TW is op when you compare it to your BM, but try to fight one in a hunchback or a cent....the TW is as FAST AS YOU ARE with nearly the same agility, with MORE ARMOUR and MORE GUNS. Why on earth would you take a medium to be a striker/flanker when you could take yet another TW?
Only answer there is you have to as dictated by 4x3:)
Put at least an average player in one, and watch them damage numbers fly. Other heavy mechs have to sacrifice SOMETHING to gain such an edge. A Jaeger for example has to lay a careful game of armour/engine balance....or a cataphract for example if it wants decent firepower tends to be slower, or if it wants speed it loses guns....TW? NOPE^^

Your average kills might be more and your damage, but that one fight where your BM might struggle the TW simply dominates. It simply excels in too many different areas.

But shouldn't a mech weighing 75 tons be more powerful than a mech weighing 50-55 tons? I mean we are talking a 20-25 ton difference in battlemech weight so of course a 75 ton mech should dominate you if your trying to go head-to-head with it in a 50-55 tonner. Hell even comparing a 85 tonner to a 75 tonner wouldn't be valid if the claim wasn't that the 75 tonner in question was vastly OPed and comparable to an Assault mech on crack.

Also what the Timber Wolf doesn't have that those mediums do is agility. The Timber Wolf due to its weight doesn't climb worth a crap. It loses momentum very, very quickly, almost as bad as an assault mech.

Anyway, we can go around and around on this all day long and it won't change the facts.

The Timber Wolf is a good mech. It offers excellent jack-of-all trades flexibility without suffering the negative traits typically associated with a jack-of-all trades design.

As far as popularity, I can definitely see why. It is definitely very easy to find a custom fit that works well with your play style and can either be built to flex into several different roles on the fly or be highly specialized to a specific role.

These facts dont make it overpowered or an "I Win" button though, rather they just make it a good mech. The reason I created the thread was to try to illustrate that other designs, even IS designs can and do out perform it and to try to dissuade people from believing that popularity is equal to over powered.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 01 August 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

TIMBER WOLF TBR-PRIME(I) 43 26 17 1.53 88 18 4.89 25,591 73,950 05:21:42

Geez, my TW 4.89 K/D
2.04 Kills per match avg
595 Dmg/Match avg
1.52 W/L


my Griffin and Awesome 8r are only better K:D but 10 or less matches each heh
Griffin 1N 7 Matches 16 kills 2 Deaths. 6 wins 1 loss !!! OP!

Edited by shad0w4life, 01 August 2014 - 02:18 PM.

[Jeb]

one of the things I have noticed about the clan mechs is that the dmg is higher due to spreading out dmg more, making them look more powerful then they are...

Spreading damage is a huge thing for mechs... A common strat to live longer is to spread the damage over multiple areas... Clan mech weapons already do this by design (longer burn times etc) An IS player with 400 dmg and decent aim, probably did a lot more help to the team then a clan player with 400 dmg for example...


Also matches won in a mech doesn't show a single mechs balance... win/loss is a team thing...

Stats don't even tell the real picture when it comes to mech power... if your mech is good at stealing kills for example, it's K:D ratio may be higher, but really is that same mech better then the mech that took out most the armor needed to get that last kill? If your mechs weapons spread dmg, is having 200 dmg over the STs/CT of a few mechs better then 200 dmg on the CTs of a few mechs?

The TW is good... it's very good, and probably needs to be toned down just a bit (I think it needs to be a bit slower, but don't know how to do that as a smaller engine would just make it more powerful due to more weight to add weapons) Is it the "I Win" mech people claim? no... I don't fear them in my IS mechs any more then any other decent Heavy IS mech..

Edited by Jeb, 01 August 2014 - 02:27 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

shad0w4life, on 01 August 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

TIMBER WOLF TBR-PRIME(I) 43 26 17 1.53 88 18 4.89 25,591 73,950 05:21:42

Geez, my TW 4.89 K/D
2.04 Kills per match avg
595 Dmg/Match avg
1.52 W/L


my Griffin and Awesome 8r are only better K:D but 10 or less matches each heh
Griffin 1N 7 Matches 16 kills 2 Deaths. 6 wins 1 loss !!! OP!

Many people might not agree with everything I post, but I have been around a while and I am pretty sure I don't have a reputation as a troll so all I will say is obviously I am not basing my comparison on mechs with just a few matches or anything with obviously distorted stats like you suggest.

Also congrats on your performance with the Timber Wolf, a 4.89 K/D is damn good especially if happen to be a solo PUG like me. One question though. Is the Timber Wolf the only mech you have pulling those kind of numbers or are there others doing as well or better?

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Alistair Winter, on 01 August 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

This may be, objectively speaking, the worst Clan P2W thread I've seen so far. And I'll tell you why.

You may think that providing some sort of "evidence" makes your argument stronger than people who just say "I've been playing against Timber wolves for 3 weeks now, and they seem to be OP". But those people are actually basing their opinion on the average performance of Timber wolves played by different people, in many different matches. Or maybe just the top players in every match, disregarding the people who can't play regardless what mech they're in. Whether their memory or perception is reliable is a valid concern, but at least they have an idea of a useful perspective.

All this proves is that you haven't done well with the Timber wolf, with the builds you've been using. That's.... not very helpful at all.

In 75 matches of playing the Cicada 2A, I have a KDR of 2.4 and W/L of 0.88. In 81 matches of playing the Shadowhawk 2H, I have a KDR of 1.02 and a W/L of 0.84. Ipso facto the Cicada is a much better medium mech than the Shadowhawk. So why do people keep talking about the Shadowhawk meta, and not the awesome deadly Cicada?

Because science and statistics. If we want to look at some numbers constructively, we need a representative sample. You're not one, and neither am I. Which is why this thread is bad and you should feel bad.

and it's crap like this that shows he wasn't reading.

Hey, hey you... re-read the op.

He's saying that clans ARN'T OP!

[Chavette]

shad0w4life, on 01 August 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

TIMBER WOLF TBR-PRIME(I) 43 26 17 1.53 88 18 4.89 25,591 73,950 05:21:42

Geez, my TW 4.89 K/D
2.04 Kills per match avg
595 Dmg/Match avg
1.52 W/L


my Griffin and Awesome 8r are only better K:D but 10 or less matches each heh
Griffin 1N 7 Matches 16 kills 2 Deaths. 6 wins 1 loss !!! OP!

Exactly. Why would I give a damn about a random noobs' stats, and who in their right mind assumes it has some indication about a given mechs' performance.

[Primetimex]

You might be on to this P2W TW theory:

TIMBER WOLF TBR-PRIME(G) W/L 1.89 KDR 1.95

I previously ran Misery till I was bored with KDR of 2.04 (down to 1.74 now) and a W/L of 1.60 (was higher back before Clans LOL)

Edited by GetterRobo, 01 August 2014 - 04:19 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Flash Frame, on 01 August 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

and it's crap like this that shows he wasn't reading.
Hey, hey you... re-read the op.
He's saying that clans ARN'T OP!

I'm going to have to assume you're serious, old boy, because if you're making a joke, it's not entirely my cup of tea.

I know he's saying that clans (well, Timber wolves) aren't OP.

I'm saying that they probably are, even though Viktor Drake isn't very good with them.

He's just one person. I'd also like to say that 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'. Which is to say, just because I suck with the Timber Wolf, doesn't mean that it's not potentially OP.

[Wispsy]

Ok so how about my Nova with 150 games and a 50 win/loss??

[Lefty Lucy]

Wispsy, on 01 August 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Ok so how about my Nova with 150 games and a 50 win/loss??

Proof that Clan mechs are underpowered, since we expect you to have a perfect record.

[KharnZor]

Torgun, on 01 August 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

I have to disagree. The TW clearly has too many good things going for it and hardly any drawbacks compared to all the other mechs. It's got plenty of weight for weapons since clan weapons are lighter. It's got plenty of speed to go with that, and also good cooling with plenty of heatsinks. It has the same survivability as all other clan mechs with XL due to being able to lose one side torso and still live. It also has JJ if you want to use them. What are the drawbacks? A fairly large CT? There are plenty of IS mechs that have clearly bigger CT, but none of them get all the good clan stuff. The TW clearly has too many strengths and too few weaknesses and if it doesn't get nerfed it would be used by more and more players. No it's not because it's so "fun", it's because it's fun to win more often with a better mech.

You've never piloted a TW?

[Roland]

Or he has, since everything he said is true.

[KharnZor]

Roland, on 01 August 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

Or he has, since everything he said is true.

Yea no. The question was pointed at him but thanks for taking the time to contribute your particular brand of bitter.