134 replies to this topic

[Suspicious Flatulence]

Yes, a mech should topple if it loses a leg entirely. In MW2 it was more of an honor system that prevented legging. Yes I know this isn't MW2 but if you lose a leg, you will not stay standing. Of all that was posted here, it would seem like adding a mechanic to prop yourself up, lean on a building, "sit", or lie prone to allow you to continue adding fire support would all be good ideas. As much as I hated getting legged, it is something that should exist in MWO.

I don't know about the TT rules, and I won't cite some legendary battle from a novel somewhere, but simple mechanics like this should be included.

A good combat to legging would be adding some equipment that can provide better shielding. Let the moron shoot at your better protected legs while you take out his armament.

[feor]

Red Beard, on 30 November 2011 - 07:03 AM, said:

Pardon me, are you calling ME ignorant?

In the tabletop game. Not in the video game. Do real estate agents go looking to Monopoly to find out what they should be doing?

Emphasis on general concepts. Rules, technicalities and such, if taken from the TT game, will only stand to bog this video game down and turn away the necessary base of casual gamers.

Again, No one is saying that we should take the exact rules from the board game and incorporate them into MWO. But they should be used as the basis for what the mechs are capable of. The Real Estate agent -> monopoly comparison isn't really fair, because Monopoly was based on what Real Estate Agents do (roughly).

A better comparison would be making a driving game. If you were making a driving game, would you put in a Honda Civic that could do 0-60 in 2 seconds? No, cause a Honda Civic can't do 0-60 in 2 seconds. You have something which defines the functioning of a Honda Civic, in that case it's the real world.

Likewise, we have something that defines the functioning of a battlemech, the tabletop rules. Are you going to make an Atlas that can run at 90km/h? No, cause Atlases can't run 90km/h. Likewise, a mech that loses a leg doesn't magically explode or shut down because of it, they continue to crawl, sit, balance, or hop around the battlefield trying to accomplish their mission. Some pilots may choose to eject once they've lost a leg, and I fully support giving us an eject option (though preferably a 2 or 3 key combination stroke, to avoid accidental punch outs) for if you don't want to continue on a hobbled mech. But I also think you shouldn't be forced to abandon the field of battle just because your mech's had its leg shot out from under it.

The only thing that should forcibly kill a mech should be complete destruction of it's Center Torso/Engine or Head/Cockpit.

[VYCanis]

why not simply have it where leg destruction is a multiple stage deal?

popped actuators = gradually slower limp
destroyed leg internals = leg is a big metal crutch
beyond that, some X amount of additional firepower is needed to actually blast it off

Once one leg is totally gone, or both legs are put into "lifeless crutch mode" your mech falls, after which your mech automatically rolls onto its back left 4 dead style, and you can enjoy a bit of shooting until you either get the guy that legged you, or you get finished off.

Assuming you survive, i dunno, maybe a generous teammate with hands can drag you to a repair facility or you can call in a salvage lifter or some crap to eother get repairs or deny the enemy salvage

Edited by VYCanis, 30 November 2011 - 12:38 PM.

[Garth Erlam]

Alright, everyone let's keep this thread on track and civil. Don't go all Word of Blake on eachother.

[Korbyn McColl]

imho, this is where character pilot skills would come in handy. The higher your piloting skill the more likely you are to be able to remain standing after losing a leg (or even be able to hobble a little, if the leg hasn't been completely blown off).

[Haeso]

But Garth if we can't burn the heretics what are we supposed to do to them exactly?

Edited by Haeso, 30 November 2011 - 01:51 PM.

[Red Beard]

VYCanis, on 30 November 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

Once one leg is totally gone, or both legs are put into "lifeless crutch mode" your mech falls, after which your mech automatically rolls onto its back left 4 dead style, and you can enjoy a bit of shooting until you either get the guy that legged you, or you get finished off.

As far as what happens AFTER your mech falls to the ground, I would say that this is probably the most like what I would envision. No crawling back up, no sitting up and firing from a frontal sitting position, or anything like that, but at least still being able to launch some kind of armament would still work. A little. I guess.

[Garth Erlam]

Haeso, on 30 November 2011 - 01:50 PM, said:

But Garth if we can't burn the heretics what are we supposed to do to them exactly?

Report them for re-education.

[Haeso]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2011 - 01:56 PM, said:

Report them for re-education.

Well played Sir, well played.

[Kudzu]

Silly Garth, nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

*hugs his toaster*

[Red Beard]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2011 - 01:56 PM, said:

Report them for re-education.

Communist.

[feor]

Red Beard, on 30 November 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:

Communicationist.

Fixed that for ya. Peace of Blake be with you.

[Corsair114]

If a 'mech gets its leg shot off and falls over immediately, presumably it will fall over out in the open, where it was able to be attacked in the first place.

How is this not essentially a free kill, anyways? You're just leaving the player stuck there on the ground waiting for someone to kill him. It also incentivizes legging as it cripples (possibly completely removes) the mobility of the 'mech. Even if a 'mech with JJ's can move while legged, it now makes taking a non-JJ equipped 'mech almost pointless because it can be disabled, rendering it useless as anything but a potential stationary missile battery.

Unless you're gonna have legs so heavily armored that you won't shoot at them just because it's far faster to go for the torsos.

[Suspicious Flatulence]

Corsair114, on 01 December 2011 - 12:17 AM, said:

If a 'mech gets its leg shot off and falls over immediately, presumably it will fall over out in the open, where it was able to be attacked in the first place.

How is this not essentially a free kill, anyways? You're just leaving the player stuck there on the ground waiting for someone to kill him. It also incentivizes legging as it cripples (possibly completely removes) the mobility of the 'mech. Even if a 'mech with JJ's can move while legged, it now makes taking a non-JJ equipped 'mech almost pointless because it can be disabled, rendering it useless as anything but a potential stationary missile battery.

Unless you're gonna have legs so heavily armored that you won't shoot at them just because it's far faster to go for the torsos.

Because it's part of combat. Rather than remove it all together give players the option to defend against it, if they don't, then it's on them when it happens.

[Corsair114]

How do you "defend against being legged" other than by simply sitting around waiting for the enemy to just come to you? Frankly, this idea sounds like it would be an extremely harsh penalty to face for playing aggressively at all. especially for light weights who, presumably, will not have legs that take much in the way of firepower to destroy. A free kill just because you hit a leg fairly hard, hardly sounds like it does anything to make legging a worse option, or even equal option, to going though the CT.

What's the math on this for classic BT (as we don't have any MW:O stats to work with)? How much damage does it take to get the leg off of, say, a Jenner?

[Haeso]

Well, more importantly in BT - you don't target specific areas. Without a targeting computer which is heavy. And IIRC you are less accurate in general if you try aiming for a specific spot.

[VYCanis]

Corsair114, on 01 December 2011 - 12:17 AM, said:

If a 'mech gets its leg shot off and falls over immediately, presumably it will fall over out in the open, where it was able to be attacked in the first place.

How is this not essentially a free kill, anyways? You're just leaving the player stuck there on the ground waiting for someone to kill him. It also incentivizes legging as it cripples (possibly completely removes) the mobility of the 'mech. Even if a 'mech with JJ's can move while legged, it now makes taking a non-JJ equipped 'mech almost pointless because it can be disabled, rendering it useless as anything but a potential stationary missile battery.

Unless you're gonna have legs so heavily armored that you won't shoot at them just because it's far faster to go for the torsos.

as opposed to losing a side torso and however much equipment is inside, and possibly taking engine damage, and/or losing an arm, which on some mechs can result in 50% or more firepower going up in smoke, or losing the cockpit and dying, or getting cored out and also dying.

any part you blow off a mech is going to cripple it pretty bad unless there really is nothing in there, which only means that everything important was stuffed into another location, which you should have been aiming for instead.

like i said, let it be possible to do, but require a fair bit of effort. and still allow player's who've lost mobility some limited means of fighting until either rescued or destroyed.

[feor]

Corsair114, on 01 December 2011 - 03:25 AM, said:

How do you "defend against being legged" other than by simply sitting around waiting for the enemy to just come to you? Frankly, this idea sounds like it would be an extremely harsh penalty to face for playing aggressively at all. especially for light weights who, presumably, will not have legs that take much in the way of firepower to destroy. A free kill just because you hit a leg fairly hard, hardly sounds like it does anything to make legging a worse option, or even equal option, to going though the CT.

What's the math on this for classic BT (as we don't have any MW:O stats to work with)? How much damage does it take to get the leg off of, say, a Jenner?

In the board game a Jenner has 6 armour on each leg, and 10 armour on its center torso (as a referance point a medium laser does 5 points of damage). However, this varies from mech to mech, the Awesome (designed for an "assault" role), for example, has 33 armour on its legs vs. 30 armour on its CT. In most cases a mech's legs are nearly as well armoured as its CT. They also carry as much internal structure as a side torso (on a Jenner that's 7 points) making them fairly hard to completely remove a leg short of a lucky crit.

[Xhaleon]

feor, on 01 December 2011 - 08:00 AM, said:

fairly hard to completely remove a leg

I kick you in shin. Kicking solves many problems.

No leg, no problem. I punch you in shin.

No arms, big problem. I wiggle you in shin.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Haeso, on 01 December 2011 - 03:51 AM, said:

Well, more importantly in BT - you don't target specific areas. Without a targeting computer which is heavy. And IIRC you are less accurate in general if you try aiming for a specific spot.

I know that Battletech has targeting limitations and such, and MWO is supposed to adhere to TT rules as closely as possible... but, honestly, if MWO was really based on TT rules then movement speed would be measured in Hexes instead of kilometers/hour, the game would be turn-based, and we'd watch virtual dice rolling across the screen on a regular basis.

Compromise is in order.

One compromise that I suggest the Devs adopt in porting the TT game to a live-action-shooter is the ability to deliberately target body parts of your foes. If you can't target body parts, then you might as well incorporate a mandatory auto-aim function that directs all shots to the center-of-frontal-mass [+/- weapon accuracy].

That would suck.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 01 December 2011 - 10:16 AM.