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Anyone Aside From Me Really Wish Pgi Would Just Stop And Redesign The Game?


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#121 Khobai

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:49 AM

Quote

Battletech needs a company who is ready to invest serious amounts of money into an online game and who understand how Classic Battletech works. That are 2 points PGI seriously lacks.


Youre assuming such a company even exists. We went almost 15 years without a mechwarrior game. Honestly if PGI hadnt revived the IP, do you think anyone else would have? I dont think PGI gets enough credit for that.

Honestly the game is not so bad that it needs to be completely redesigned. It just needs three things really: role warfare (revamped module/skill system), better maps, and better gamemodes. That would solve what I consider to be the biggest issue with the game: lack of depth.

Secondary to adding more tactical/strategic depth to the game is balancing weapons, reducing/removing pinpoint convergence, and revamping the heatscale so ghost heat is no longer needed. If PGI did all that I would be happy. And quite frankly I couldnt care less about community warfare.

Edited by Khobai, 05 August 2014 - 01:00 AM.


#122 meteorol

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:50 AM

View PostBlack Ivan, on 05 August 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:


Battletech needs a company who is ready to invest serious amounts of money into an online game


That is something that any company will lack. Did you ever wonder why they couldn'f find a single publisher on this planet that was willing to shell out money for the Mechwarrior 5 with singleplayer (the one with the trailer guys keep reposting every now and then).

Mechwarrior is a niche product. No one is willing to invest serious amounts of money into a mechwarrior game because chances are that they will lose it. Mechwarrior never had and never will have the playerbase that justifies shelling out the money it costs to produce a AAA game nowadays. Hence, not a single publisher was willing to do it. That won't change with a different dev studio. Publishers are not interested in financing good games, they want to finance games that make money.
Why did microsoft do nothing with the IP for years? Probably because they thought the IP isn't worth the investment.

#123 ice trey

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:04 AM

You know, MWO has it's problems, but I honestly don't think it has anything to do with the game mechanics. The little tweaks that are always happening with the matchmakers and weapons haven't had a significant effect on me. The only real change in gameplay, I find, comes from the effectiveness and prevalence of LRMs, with which comes the importance of scouting and spotting, and whether or not you bring AMS.

But even before MWO came out, I knew about MW:LL, but while there are a lot of people who sing it's praises, I was put off by what I saw. Whether these changed or not in that window of time, I'm not sure, but when I was doing my research, these are the points that turned me off of it.
  • Adherence to Mechwarrior 4 and Mech Assault, not Battletech

I initially got introduced to Battletech through the Mechwarrior series of games. Mechwarrior 2 came first, then GBL, Mercenaries... I doubled back and did the Crescent Hawks series and Mechwarrior 1, and then got my hands on Mech Comamnder, Mechwarrior 3, and Pirates moon. All of these tried to adhere to the Battletech mechanics, and emulate the canon designs. Suddenly, Mechwarrior 4 comes out, throwing the Battletech mechanics out the window, bastardized many of the loadouts of canon designs, and even threw in a bunch of mechs that up until that point didn't exist. My first exposure to the online gameplay soured my stomach immediately, Besides the fact that MW4 multiplayer was "Jumpsniping Assault Mechs Online", there was no real point to it save for winning a match and moving up the leaderboard. In the end, I decided that all I really wanted was a single player game.

Later, when I would pick up Battletech tabletop, I found that many people who were initially interested in trying Battletech were immediately put off of the record sheets. The reason why is because they were unfamiliar with them. How could Battletech have done so well, but then when 2001 rolls around, suddenly, it's the most confusing thing out there? It's because video games are probably the best marketing tool for tabletop, and if the experience is too different, they are alienated. MW4's modules system just left people confused when they tried to transition to tabletop.

When I saw the videos for MWLL, I saw more of the stuff I didn't want to see - Weapons Modules instead of a critical system, What was more, the selection of mechs, I felt, was not trying to explore anything new. Much like Mechwarrior 4, it was just a collection of whatever was popular. Bushwackers, Ravens, Maulers, Timberwolves and the lot - not really even adhering to the canon variants, either, as they tried cramming in the modules systems. It felt like a hodgepodge of "Whatever's Cool", and didn't feel thematic in the least.

  • Driving a mech in Battle Armor:

One thing that I was really hoping to experience was Battletech from outside of a mech, as foot infantry, desperately trying to avoid getting shot by the giant war behemoths stomping around in order to get back to safety. MWLL almost went that route, but instead of putting you on foot as a mechwarrior, they put you in... Battle Armor? Which you're still wearing when you're piloting a 'mech? AND a tank? AND an aerospace fighter? All you do is jump-jet up to it and...?

The whole look of that was really off putting to me, as it looked way too much like Mechassault 2: Lone Wolf. If you're a Mechwarrior, you have a 'mech. If you're a tanker, you drive a tank, if you're an aerojock, you fly an aerospace fighter, or maybe a VTOL. The whole "playing a match and if you're a good player you get to buy better stuff" thing was really off putting to me back in Counterstrike, as it was just a "The rich get richer" mechanic. Also being able to just hop in and drive anything really didn't do much for my suspension of disbelief. Sure, people liked Battlefield, but Battlefield is just a kill-everything-sandbox. I want a simulation of the Battletech setting. At the very least, they could have made Battle Armor a different kind of vehicle, and the default being in a more conventional mechwarrior jumpsuit with a sidearm. Imagining a person in a one-ton jetpacked suit of armor crammed inside of the cockpit of a 'mech is just ridiculous.

  • Nothing for Single Players

As with so many mod packs these days, nobody even seems to attempt doing AI, Voice acting, scripted scenes... While I'm sure these are all quite difficult, I'd far rather play a game with a good story and compelling missions with bad AI, then just another multiplayer game. Having something connecting each mission to the next, and overall just having a REASON to want to fight, is something I need to have any enjoyment in a game. Multiplayer games are notorious for either giving you no or petty reasons to fight (You can totally show off how badass you are on the leaderboards! OH SNAP!), or just offer you detatched and unrewarding reasons to fight (If you spend the next 12 hours grinding demon walruses, you can return five rare golden tusks to get a golden tusk hat, which doesn't actually do anything worthwhile at all). MWLL wasn't breaking this mold. Sure, you got to drive around in a bunch of different vehicles, but there was no reason to want to kill each other. No story, No characters, No attachment. Yes, a single player game eventually ends, but there's that feeling of fulfillment that will make you want to pick it up and play it again later. You don't get that from a multiplayer game... just join, kill, and die. Join, kill, and die. Also some edgy thirteen year old might go around questioning everyone's sexuality and scream some profanities he'd just learned over Voicom.

  • Requirements of some Crysis mod.

Sure, they wanted the game to look nice, granted, but they also managed to pick the absolute most processor-heavy game engine of its' time, and it sure didn't look like they were doing anything to dial things back for players with low-end systems. What was worse, is that in order to play the mod, I had to buy a game that I didn't really even want, nor had the processing power to play. Compound the prior issues above with the fact that they wanted me to buy some AAA CPU game, only to mod it, when my computer at the time could only just barely play Oblivion at minimum settings - meaning I'd have to buy a whole new computer in order to play... a fan made mod?

No dice. If they'd made their mod with the Steam engine or something, we'd have been in business.








When I saw the advertisements for Mechwarrior 3015, I was ecstatic. Finally, a Battletech universe, story-driven experience, after nearly a decade since our last one. When that venture seemingly turned into vaporware, I was happy to find out that they had re-emerged, but when the Atlas Mozaic's final piece was added and I saw the "online", my heart dropped. Online means nothing but people abusing mechanics, meaningless matches, and lack of story. As things were announced that would help to negate the blow: It's PC only, It's going to use the Battletech Criticals System, but with some limitations to keep 'mechs still vaguely similar to their variants, repair and rearming mechanics, and most importantly, the inclusion of a community warfare system, MWO sounded like it might be the online game that would make me stop hating online games.

As the game started, Spirits were high. Suddenly, Mechwarrior and Battletech was on all PC Gamers' minds, and even at my LGS, former Battletech players and new recruits started coming out of the woodwork. Where I had previously only one person to play against, maybe once every two weeks at best, I now had games nearly every week on both Saturday and Sunday, sometimes with even four-way matches. The only reason, I believe, that I'm not still getting those games in is because I left the country and went half way across the world.

As for some things that MWLL seemed to do right, they had some genuinely beautiful looking levels, the attempts to include a more combined arms approach (though how they went about it isn't to my tastes) was commendable, and the greater openness to community input and inclusion of fan-made content was also good.

So while there were some people that genuinely liked MWLL, I'll grant them that much, but to this day, although MWO has it's very, VERY large failings, I'd still be more sold on it than LL. MWO started foundationally trying to bring the Battletech feel back to the Mechwarrior franchise, and though it seems to have shifted to catering to the "1337 MLG PRO" e-sports types, at it's core (With the exception of coolant flushes) it's keeping to the feel of the Battletech setting. MWLL, however, still feels to me like it was made by Mechwarrior 4 fans who've never even dabbled in the Battletech setting outside of that game, or who have perhaps rejected it in favor of whatever game mechanics were in vogue at the time.

tl;dr: MWO is lacking, but might eventually deliver. MWLL has never offered, nor was slated to offer, the Battletech universe immersion am looking for.

As for what MWO needs to do to fix itself? Pretty simple.
  • Release community warfare so that each game feels like it counts towards something more than just more C-bills.
  • Make non-shooty roles more worthwhile in terms of C-bill rewards, so that players are just as likely to want to play with lights as they are to want to play with heavies.
  • Make the Company Command console ( B ) something that players will actually want to use.
  • Reintroduce the repair and rearm system so that not everyone is in a race to get the XL engine and double heat sinks the moment they buy a new mech. Give greater C-bill rewards to those who field cheaper designs.

Edited by ice trey, 05 August 2014 - 06:37 AM.


#124 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:05 AM

View PostAresye, on 04 August 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:


You're forgetting these as part of the core mechanics:
- Heat System
- Targeting/Sensor System
- Matchmaking System
- Netcode/HSR
- Intuitive UI

All of the above = abysmal.


Your confusing features with core mechanics.

What you listed is not the core mechanics of the game (Ex. The way the mechs feel and function, the way the game looks and the way it runs). I'll give you that the game isn't optimized (graphically or performance), but the way the mechs move, the aiming mechanic (the way the mouse controls the torso and arms), etc... Is still solid.

That is why people like myself still play the game. It isn't for the content that is for sure.

#125 That Dawg

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:08 AM

Nothing changes till the Devs experience it first hand.

remember impact damage and mechs falling over?
as I recall, devs were targeted and knocked down repeatedly and magically, 'fall over' vanished the. very. next. patch.

#126 Noth

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:10 AM

View PostThatDawg, on 05 August 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

Nothing changes till the Devs experience it first hand.

remember impact damage and mechs falling over?
as I recall, devs were targeted and knocked down repeatedly and magically, 'fall over' vanished the. very. next. patch.


To be fair, the collisions had to go. They were just that bad.

#127 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:18 AM

View PostThatDawg, on 05 August 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

Nothing changes till the Devs experience it first hand.

remember impact damage and mechs falling over?
as I recall, devs were targeted and knocked down repeatedly and magically, 'fall over' vanished the. very. next. patch.


LOL, it made the Dragon the best Heavy mech (if not the best mech) in the game. Dragon bowling was the meta.

#128 Livewyr

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:06 AM

View PostEscef, on 04 August 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:


If you want games with real penalties for failure I would recommend cashing out your life savings and going to Vegas. Expecting a video game to provide you with whatever sense of reward you are missing in your life is juvenile.


How interesting...and completely irrelevant.

You would make a great case study.

#129 Escef

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 05:57 AM

View PostLivewyr, on 05 August 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:


How interesting...and completely irrelevant.

You would make a great case study.

It's more relevant than community warfare will be. You want an arbitrary point system that tells you that your faction sticker, that you can change at any time, is the best? Who freakin' cares? It doesn't matter.

#130 Kjudoon

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 06:26 AM

MWO right now is in the same stage that existed for BT when all you did was open the box, pull out the mechs and hexes and just play a match or two with no consequences or reason for being. That's fine for an idle afternoon of diversion, but lousy for a computer game. PGI has also made some pretty sizable programming mistakes along the way, most of which have been fixed, and/or minimized. These have also slowed down development of much needed content. Other things were caused by PGI being forced to do things out of order by IGP for money. So now we have the silliness of Clans being released before CW and UI2.0 being a disaster in many many ways only slowly being improved. These flaws can be overcome, but not without great expense to a player base and will be years in the rebuilding unless something amazing comes out.

Another issue is that the vision for MWO is not being shaped by fans of the genre, nor does it align with their sales materials and promises. It doesn't even line up well with previous games which has many players angry about it and for good reason. They were expecting "X" and got "4". Yes the lines cross in both characters, but they don't mean or look the same. The vision being pushed forward is more and more resembling a very pedestrian, slow pavlovian twitch shooter which is labeled 'skill' and mastery is pushed out of reach of those who do not possess or have interest in such things. Real skill based on information, higher thought, wisdom and experience is being slowly written out of the game design by egos and cliques not interested in these facets of the game who currently have the ear of the developers. Essentially, a game for pros and e-sportos, not for dirty casuals and noobs. Till a fundamental sea shift happens in the development mindset and who does their first level feedback, this will not change.

A serious flaw introduced 3 patches back was the unintended consequence of the solo/group queue system. On one hand, the solo queue is excellent and needs to be preserved. You get more accurate skill evaluation because it is more likely you will end up fighting your skill peers. The bad news is that the group queue now faces the nasty monster we accidentally faced when 12man groups suddenly found themselves outside the 12man queue and able to stomp on pugs. Now this is represented by large groups versus small groups. You can ultimately get 6 two man groups facing a single 12man. Result? 12man v Pug stomp. This kills enthusiasm in the game. The reason this occurs is because of group elo hiding excellent players among bad. So if you're doing well in the group queue and stomping everything in sight, you're the problem. The solution is to minimize this by creating or rather bringing back the old single public queue system where you could have a group up to 4 people, but no more. This is in addition to the Solo/Large Group queues. This keeps the elo differential smaller because it's harder to hide the elo difference and then to tighten up on matching so longer waits may happen, but less stomps will occur.

Lastly, the scope of this game, again, barring a fundamental seachange, is too small. It's stuck in the small 12v12 deathmatch mindset. The maps need to increase in size by almost a factor of 10. Matches need to become longer with multiple goals. Drops need to be treated as part of a larger campaign not just isolated little scraps of no consequence and impact As things currently stand, CW is only going to delay the inevitable gamer community realizing this game will never fulfill it's touted goals, and go seek a stompy robot game elsewhere.

No this game doesn't need to be scrapped and restarted. It needs to start producing assets that allow for these changes to go into effect:

Role Warfare created from larger maps and an minimization of deathmatch only rewards
Real value and consequence based strategy caused by in and out of match gameplay choices
Increased value for non twitchy accomplishments and actual skills
Create a small group queue to minimize player differential resulting in poor game experience for the majority of players.

Edited by Kjudoon, 05 August 2014 - 07:06 AM.


#131 Hungry Hungry Hobo

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 07:00 AM

View PostMadcatX, on 04 August 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:


Makes sense that this happened. Of my six friends who bought the founders pack, only 1 had ever played MW multiplayer. We just wanted to see a new BTech title, even if it wasn't single-player. I'm sure we arn't the only ones who bought in because of the franchise alone.

When the clans rolled around, most of us chose to opt our of early access for various reasons, the big sticking points being:

- They were not really clan mechs seeing as they were being balanced against IS instead of implementing a 3 lance vs 2 star MM.
- There was no "invasion" to really speak of.
- There was too little information to make an informed decision before launch. We got some pretty artwork and that's about it.
- For a F2P title, prices were too high for what amounted to mostly early access privilege. The Founder program was also early access but, again, my friends and I paid to get this game going.

Me and a few friend's experience anyways.

Pretty much describes me on every point.

#132 Hungry Hungry Hobo

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 07:07 AM

One of the problems I had with MWLL was just getting Gamespy authentication to work. I eventually bought the games on steam just to play MWLL.

I remember I made an e-mail account name *&$% gamespy or something back then.

#133 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 07:16 AM

View PostMeiSooHaityu, on 05 August 2014 - 02:18 AM, said:


LOL, it made the Dragon the best Heavy mech (if not the best mech) in the game. Dragon bowling was the meta.


The Dragon was only the best because the knockdown calculation gave it 100 tons of mass instead of 60. It basically hit like a double-speed Atlas.

#134 Sandpit

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 08:18 AM

View PostEscef, on 04 August 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

One could say the same to you.

EDIT: That is to say, no, you don't want a constructive conversation, you just want to get what you want with no compromise. Take a wild guess what the odds of that happening are. No really, tell me what you think it is. You keep talking about how much you don't like the game. Then go away. What kind of psychopath hangs out on forums of a game he hates? Oh, that would be your kind.

Keep goin hoss, you're just showing your ignorance again. There's only one of us that hasn't offered anything on topic here. Give you two guesses to which one of us that is

Hate the game?
Please show me anywhere at anytime I've said that. Anywhere
In nearly 3 years
Please
Here's your chance to show everyone you're not ignorant or poorly informed. Of course I already know you won't find that because it's not true. So would you like to just drop it now and find some other thread to toss your childish name calling around or would you like to continue showing off your ignorance? Either way works for me. You add a little entertainment value to the thread.

#135 Utilyan

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 08:19 AM

I just want to start by saying If MWLL is a bad game that's no good then it never would have been put down for the threat it is.

Also want to point out the "reality" of Battletech vs MechWarrior vs The Fantasy itself.


Battletech was the limited pen and paper game that points to a fantasy. For the most part MechWarrior has delivered tanks on legs. And I grew up with MechWarrior 2. It was like tanks on legs, felt like I was driving something expensive, Felt simulator heavy, it was awesome it was great.


But battletech lore says its superior to tanks most other weapons because it mimics the human form:

"Most BattleMechs copy the human form to an extent, which is the deciding factor in their versatility and ultimately, their superior combat performance. The entire system is controlled by a pilot wearing a neurohelmet which links the 'Mech's central computer to the pilot's sense of balance and nervous system. Augmented by a combination of throttle, joystick, and dual pedal system, the 'Mech pilot controls the BattleMech like an extension of his own body, comparable to a very large combat suit. Many 'Mechs have fully articulated hands that can be used to climb or grab items." --Sarna http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleMech



In other words, much to the disappointment of a COD-hater, a Mech would be more like a typical FPS soldier rather then the typical FPS tank. You would be taking cover fluidly, be able to climb up that canyon if you have hands, It would behave in way totally UNFAMILIAR to some hardcore MechWarrior fans. Your mech might even strafe/sidestep. The arm on your "paperdoll" would have its OWN "Paperdoll" Front, back, side, actuators, mcu, ect.

In Battletech for example you can go prone. I read where some folks go prone behind hills to take cover (imagine that for lrms). Or the go prone while in the water to hide.

Imagine you grab a elemental and hurl him at some mech. Battletech-wise it could be done.

On account its fun and different I'm for "tank on legs", MechWarrior style. But don't try to pull BT accuracy BS here. Cause it would be more like a "battlefield" soldier the mech can run, climb, jump, crouch, prone, throw, punch, kick, ect.

#136 Sandpit

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 08:21 AM

View PostLivewyr, on 05 August 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:


How interesting...and completely irrelevant.


You would make a great case study.

I agree lol he doesn't like the thread so he's just trolling it

#137 Sandpit

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 08:24 AM

View PostUtilyan, on 05 August 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

I just want to start by saying If MWLL is a bad game that's no good then it never would have been put down for the threat it is.

Also want to point out the "reality" of Battletech vs MechWarrior vs The Fantasy itself.


Battletech was the limited pen and paper game that points to a fantasy. For the most part MechWarrior has delivered tanks on legs. And I grew up with MechWarrior 2. It was like tanks on legs, felt like I was driving something expensive, Felt simulator heavy, it was awesome it was great.


But battletech lore says its superior to tanks most other weapons because it mimics the human form:

"Most BattleMechs copy the human form to an extent, which is the deciding factor in their versatility and ultimately, their superior combat performance. The entire system is controlled by a pilot wearing a neurohelmet which links the 'Mech's central computer to the pilot's sense of balance and nervous system. Augmented by a combination of throttle, joystick, and dual pedal system, the 'Mech pilot controls the BattleMech like an extension of his own body, comparable to a very large combat suit. Many 'Mechs have fully articulated hands that can be used to climb or grab items." --Sarna http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleMech



In other words, much to the disappointment of a COD-hater, a Mech would be more like a typical FPS soldier rather then the typical FPS tank. You would be taking cover fluidly, be able to climb up that canyon if you have hands, It would behave in way totally UNFAMILIAR to some hardcore MechWarrior fans. Your mech might even strafe/sidestep. The arm on your "paperdoll" would have its OWN "Paperdoll" Front, back, side, actuators, mcu, ect.

In Battletech for example you can go prone. I read where some folks go prone behind hills to take cover (imagine that for lrms). Or the go prone while in the water to hide.

Imagine you grab a elemental and hurl him at some mech. Battletech-wise it could be done.

On account its fun and different I'm for "tank on legs", MechWarrior style. But don't try to pull BT accuracy BS here. Cause it would be more like a "battlefield" soldier the mech can run, climb, jump, crouch, prone, throw, punch, kick, ect.

You don't just go prone. There are piloting skill rolls to make for both getting down and getting up. It represents the difficulty in getting a mech ti move like that
Psr for
Damage taken
Getting kicked
Turning on pavement above walking speed
Stepping on or over rubble

Those all represented how difficult it was to gey mechs to move like that

#138 Finster

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 08:26 AM

I'm still bitter that they took the MWLL source, made it worse by removing features, and added a mechbay.

PGI likes to tout the whole "But there'd be no Mechwarrior without US". Except, there was. And it was pretty good. It had its issues, sure. But to pretend like PGI is the only group on the planet to pull this out is ludicrous.

With the success of Star Citizen, Elite: Dangerous, and others, we're seeing a revitalization of the space sim genre. I see no reason to suspect that Mechwarrior wouldn't be done in the current crowdfunded environment. I just wish it had gone to the Mektek guys, because Heavy Gear Assault is looking pretty dang good, tbh, even in the early alpha stage it's in.

#139 Y E O N N E

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:54 PM

I am so ready for a new Heavy Gear entry, since the last one was amazing. I will say that I'd rather it also be a more Battlefield-scale game, though, rather than arena combat. I love having actual goals.

That's the same issue I have with MWO right now: it's so directionless.

#140 Jarvis Lancaster

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 09:19 PM

if LL is so much better... just play it already.

you sound like a kid who visits his friends house and says "oh, at MY house, we're allowed to do THIS" you have no appreciation for what has actually been put into this game to get to where its at today.

People who don't remember how often Sh*t happened during the beta have no idea how almost flawless the game runs now. The kaleidoscope gitch, constant crashes and dcs, heck, I once played a round where my JJ couldn't turn off. when you sent a bug report to PGI they got on it. You take it for granted the game doesn't crash, but a sh*t ton of work makes that possible. given PGI has also been delivering new content regularly since the launch the game is constantly growing.

"...oh but this one guy says we should start over from scratch... guess we'll go through another buggy beta test because he OBVIOUSLY knows more about game design that us."

At least hold your criticism for the release of CW. That's really gunna be where they make or break this game.





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