58 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Gyrok, on 05 August 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

Clans are not broken, I have had this discussion multiple times. If you are expecting changes to things that are not broken, your expectations are a bit awry.

This and this.

Until my Clan mechs can regularly outperform my IS mechs (which they aren't) there is nothing broken about them.

[MadPanda]

Viktor Drake, on 05 August 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

This and this.

Until my Clan mechs can regularly outperform my IS mechs (which they aren't) there is nothing broken about them.

Didn't we already conclude in that thread you made that you are simply a terrible timber wolf pilot?

[Gallowglas]

I'd like to see more actual IS versus Clan battle statistics before I start shouting for balance changes. As it stands, the only things I personally feel are out of balance are those builds which can do massive instant damage, which is really limited to the meta TW and DW builds. The non-meta TW seems mostly fine. I don't really notice anything massively skewed with the non-meta versions compared to my IS mechs and I have dropped plenty in both since the Clan release. Granted, that is also anecdotal and, thus, not really something that is the basis for proper balance. Let's balance based on actual metrics rather than people's gut feelings.

Edited by Gallowglas, 05 August 2014 - 07:49 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

I think all players named "Dawnstealer" should be given a nuclear weapon that can be set off once a game. Also, any player named "Dawnstealer" should be immune from damage from this weapon.

Thank you.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Sprouticus, on 05 August 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

I am not nearly and bitter an cynical as you and frankly your opinion is so tainted by your anger that I don't give it a ton of value personally.

That having been said, the thought did cross my mind, and it made me sad at the same time.

Yea it is a bit cynical, I fully admit that. PGI's treatment of this game after 2 years (concerning content and lack there of) has done that.

Yea, it's mostly venting, I have no real proof or anything to back that up. Still, the Clan is a Paywall and I can see them not wanting to rock the boat with the people who paid money by nerfing their machines they just paid $55 for. Once the mechs are C-Bill purchasable and everyone has Clan mechs, PGI will feel less pressure and not be as nervous about tweaking the mechs.

What's worse, Angering somone consistently dumping money into your game, or somone who's not? It may sound cynical, but the Clan Paywall was a kind of a low move (mostly because of the drawn out C-Bill releases and no Clan Trials). Had we had Clan trials (remember completely stock and unmodifiable) at the begining or had 1 mech of every class (4 total) released a month after the invasion instead of a light a month later, and some mechs taking several months after that.

Yea, these guys are good at making me cynical LOL. I hate F2P games.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 05 August 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[Screech]

MeiSooHaityu, on 05 August 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

Clan tech won't see any nerfs at all until the mechs in question are available for C-Bills. PGI want to give people who spent money the advantage for as long as possible.

They have already nerfed clan small lasers. You probably didn't notice because they are small lasers, so yeah.

[Sprouticus]

MeiSooHaityu, on 05 August 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Yea it is a bit cynical, I fully admit that. PGI's treatment of this game after 2 years (concerning content and lack there of) has done that.

Yea, it's mostly venting, I have no real proof or anything to back that up. Still, the Clan is a Paywall and I can see them not wanting to rock the boat with the people who paid money by nerfing their machines they just paid $55 for. Once the mechs are C-Bill purchasable and everyone has Clan mechs, PGI will feel less pressure and not be as nervous about tweaking the mechs.

What's worse, Angering somone consistently dumping money into your game, or somone who's not? It may sound cynical, but the Clan Paywall was a kind of a low move (mostly because of the drawn out C-Bill releases and no Clan Trials). Had we had Clan trials (remember completely stock and unmodifiable) at the begining or had 1 mech of every class (4 total) released a month after the invasion instead of a light a month later, and some mechs taking several months after that.

Yea, these guys are good at making me cynical LOL. I hate F2P games.

I have for the most part resisted the temptation to become cynical. I am just not that kind of guy. I will walk away before that occurs. And in the end my play time goes up and down based upon the changes instead. But I do understand your frustration.

I do think you are correct about the trials, and about the long implementaiton time for CB clan mechs. I wish the speed were better.

On the other hand, I have been advocating for a Group size based Elo penalty since BEFORW closed beta (well, not elo, but matchmakking). And for burst PPC and AC's just as long. And while it took them forever, they DID come around on those. so it IS possible.

I think we can all agree that speeding up the change cycle is good for everyone though, regardless of what you think the changes should be.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Screech, on 05 August 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

They have already nerfed clan small lasers. You probably didn't notice because they are small lasers, so yeah.

LOL, I stand corrected then.

[Lightfoot]

Nothing wrong with the Timber Wolf. Don't confuse Clan ERML balancing with the mechs that can carry some. The Timber Wolf goes down easy from what I have seen both from shooting them and being shot up in them. It's a good version of a top Clan mech.

In any event The problem was that PGI went ahead with nerfing Gauss Rifles and PPCs before ever seeing Clan tech in action. PPCs and Gauss Rifles are the Inner Sphere's best weapons when matched against Clan tech. So blame all the whiners who could not look ahead, demanding nerfs to some very modest weapons in their misguided conviction they were OP.

The Summoner needs a buff to make it a heavy mech. Right now it is a medium mech with the profiles of a heavy mech. That's unbalanced.

Personally I believe pin-point and FLD are trivial problems that are mostly resolved when pilots move laterally to their attacker. I never get my mech cored and never did. Damage is always spread across the entrire mech before it goes down and this has always been true even during the, "I bin cored by PPCs+Gauss meta and PGI does nothing!", hysteria.

Pilots who do not move laterally will always be cored regardless of the weapons or nerfs because it is their bad piloting that causes their rapid demise. No fix for that except ...L2P.. dare I say.

[Ultimax]

Sprouticus, on 05 August 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

I dont have a history with you to determine whether your evaluaiton is very good, but I will give you the BoD for the purposes of this discussion.

Fair enough, I will give you the same.

Sprouticus, on 05 August 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

1) I dont think the SCrow needs a nerf. In fact I said so in my first post. I do think the SCrow is superior to every other medium in the game, but I think that is due to the cERML, not the mech.
2) I don't ''have problems dealing with SCrows'. I do however feel from my experiences on both the equaiton think it is the best medium in the game. The lack of JJ's makes it non-OP IMO.

I don't think I would call it the best medium in the game.

It's definitely at the top of the crop, but part of that is being at the top end of the weight scale (55 tons).

If it had JJs I think we could make a case for it as best medium, but it doesn't have JJs and being "best medium" is still pretty far from being overpowered in this game.



The Nova is very niche, which is why I think a lot of people perhaps don't like it.

But the 6x Arm mounted ER MLAS or 12x ER SLAS + 4 or 5 MG builds are really not to be underestimated.

Sprouticus, on 05 August 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

3) Legging TW's is an idea.....not a great idea, but an idea. A good TW pilot will tear you up if you do that though. Having to do 100 dmg is a LOT, especially when you do not lower their ability to output dmg.

The first leg is the most important one, and 50~60 damage through focus fire isn't really that much to cut through.

[KhanCipher]

DV McKenna, on 05 August 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

Pointless to nerf clan tech when months down the line IS gets new tech to bring them up to par and in some cases better (Light Gauss anyone?)

and most all of it starts getting out in 3058 and the late 3060s like Thunderbolt Missile Launchers, Light/Heavy PPCs, Light AC5s and 2s, RACs, MRMs, X-Pulses, and the Light/Heavy Gauss (hell how is PGI going to implement the HGauss without making the AC/20 just straight up useless is going to be a puzzle) just to name a few.

Meanwhile in the same timeframe clans also get new toys like ATMs, Heavy Lasers, HAGs, AP Gauss, Light/Heavy MGs, Streak LRMs, hell some crazy Diamond Shark guys made RACs with clan equipment (although the clan version is worse than the IS one atm, the only time that IS equipment is better than clan equipment).

[Wolfways]

Mr Ikea, on 05 August 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

Bullshit. A "stock weapon" -S barely has half it's full armor, and there's no way known two simultaneous Timberwolves didn't rip through you in seconds.

352 out of 422 is barely half its full armour?
But i don't care if you believe me. I have no reason to lie but i'm sure you can come up with something.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Sprouticus, on 05 August 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

I have for the most part resisted the temptation to become cynical. I am just not that kind of guy. I will walk away before that occurs. And in the end my play time goes up and down based upon the changes instead. But I do understand your frustration.

I do think you are correct about the trials, and about the long implementaiton time for CB clan mechs. I wish the speed were better.

On the other hand, I have been advocating for a Group size based Elo penalty since BEFORW closed beta (well, not elo, but matchmakking). And for burst PPC and AC's just as long. And while it took them forever, they DID come around on those. so it IS possible.

I think we can all agree that speeding up the change cycle is good for everyone though, regardless of what you think the changes should be.

I just feel like F2P means pay for customized appearances (Camo, colors, trinkets, etc...) I understand the Premium Time, that is a staple of these kind of games, it makes sense. I even think Hero mechs are ok because they are the same mech with just a different loadout arrangement (and C-Bill bonus).

When PGI dragged out the Phoenix pack C-Bill release mechs, I should have guessed they were going to do that for the Clans as well.

Thing is, Phoenix and Sabre mechs were IS mechs. Even if I didn't buy the Phoenix pack, I could play very similar IS mechs while I waited for them. The Clans are a whole new style of gameplay that changes the game out there. It is a whole new experience to the game, and PGI said NOPE...Pay us money or forget it for months. PGI essentially added a whole bunch of new content, and cut off a portion of it's player base from experiencing it unless they paid money.

If Clan Trials would have been available and I could play a stock un-modified mech, maybe I wouldn't feel so cut-off. As it stands now, this whole Clan Paywall thing has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Crazy thing is, if new content had been streaming out like new maps, game modes, and CW had at least started before the Clans launched, I probably would have bought a Clan mech (specifically the Timber Wolf). I just didn't want to pay money towards a game not seemingly moving anywhere.

Ok, Im done...got it out of my system. I'll try and be more upbeat LOL.

[Livewyr]

Roland, on 05 August 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

The ERML doesn't need to be nerfed.

The IS ML needs to be buffed... and by buffed, I mean simply restored to its original BT stats by having its heat reduced by one back to its original levels.

Freebirth! I agreed with Roland?

"Ima commin' Aleksandr!"

[Lightfoot]

To take out a Timber Wolf you just shoot the Side Torsos a few times and all the weapons are destroyed. It's almost a bug. Once this is done the TW is pretty helpless, depending.

[Sprouticus]

Ultimatum X, on 05 August 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Fair enough, I will give you the same.





I don't think I would call it the best medium in the game.

It's definitely at the top of the crop, but part of that is being at the top end of the weight scale (55 tons).

If it had JJs I think we could make a case for it as best medium, but it doesn't have JJs and being "best medium" is still pretty far from being overpowered in this game.



The Nova is very niche, which is why I think a lot of people perhaps don't like it.

But the 6x Arm mounted ER MLAS or 12x ER SLAS + 4 or 5 MG builds are really not to be underestimated.




The first leg is the most important one, and 50~60 damage through focus fire isn't really that much to cut through.

I will try out the leggng thing. It works pretty well with cents, so maybe you are right.

The SCrow is a hell of a mech. Flexible, great hard points, fast, good twist. Only thing making it not the 2nd best mech in the game for the tonnage is the lack of JJ's. The SHawk will probably still rule the roost at higher Elo's and competitive play, but that does not mean the SCrow is not amazing, just that the SHawk is crazy awesome.

that having been said, I still don't think the SCrow is in need of a nerf. I am hoping the other IS mediums get some buffs via quirks to make them more viable. The Awesome was a good start. The Hunchie needs more love. Hopefully others will get the same treatment soon.

[Tharnes]

There won't be any balance fixes for the clan mechs until they are out for C-Bills and another "preorder"-pack with broken mechs is out for sale.

[Tezcatli]

Balance is needed. But as others have said. It's not going to happen until C-bill versions are released. Because it wouldn't be profitable if they nerfed the advantages away.

[Sandpit]

While i agree with some of the OP, I also understand that there's a major patch coming on the 19th with some big ramifications so I can understand "small" patches like this. That's how it's usually gone from day 1. If you get a major patch (like the last one) with another "big" one announced the patches in between are generally minor "filler" patches