51 replies to this topic

[H Seldon]

I don't think MM uses Psychohistory?

[Sandpit]

Also. to the OP, you ahve an Elo rating for each weight class.

You may have a very high Elo in ine weight class but a veyr low Elo in another weight class.

[Eglar]

In an ONLINE GAME, where you think that you can not control your own fate and move towards your intended goal. Why still bother playing it?

[Lefty Lucy]

H Seldon, on 06 August 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

I don't think MM uses Psychohistory?

I heard the MM is a front for the Second Foundation.

[Mister Blastman]

Eglar, on 06 August 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

In an ONLINE GAME, where you think that you can not control your own fate and move towards your intended goal. Why still bother playing it?

Eglar, on 06 August 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

In an ONLINE GAME, where you think that you can not control your own fate and move towards your intended goal. Why still bother playing it?

That pretty much sums it up quite well.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 06 August 2014 - 12:46 PM.

[CocoaJin]

Graugger, on 06 August 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Predetermined matches are a friggin joke and that's all this friggin game has to offer at this point. MM doesn't compare "skill" it looks at how many matches you've won and lost and decides what it needs to do to try and bring your win loss ratio to 1. People complain about no skill and OP weapons, well **** its the friggin players using them that the games putting you with so that you have no choice but to lose.



Enemy team has 5 more clan mechs AND 70 more tons. Yes I put extra crap on the image to do the math.

This isn't a true FPS it's a ******* move game with predetermined ******* battles

Wha...? Why do they keep giving these people computers?!?!

Edited by CocoaJin, 06 August 2014 - 04:12 PM.

[Sandpit]

CocoaJin, on 06 August 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Wha...? Why do they keep giving these people computers?!?!

the thing is, the OP's team had 1 kill and most were hovering at or below 200 damage with only one person doing over 300 damage and that is somehow the game and PGI's "fault"

[Mister Blastman]

Sandpit, on 06 August 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

the thing is, the OP's team had 1 kill and most were hovering at or below 200 damage with only one person doing over 300 damage and that is somehow the game and PGI's "fault"

I count a minimum of five, possibly eight bads on his team just by looking at the scores. If the matchmaker was working properly, crap like that wouldn't be happening.

I mean, for heaven's sake, I saw a guy running around with a Cicada the other night with only a SINGLE AC2 on it. His name was a derivative of the phrase "Smoke up d00d!" (to avoid naming and shaming)

Edited by Mister Blastman, 06 August 2014 - 12:56 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Mister Blastman, on 06 August 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

I count a minimum of five, possibly eight bads on his team just by looking at the scores. If the matchmaker was working properly, crap like that wouldn't be happening.

I mean, for heaven's sake, I saw a guy running around with a Cicada the other night with only a SINGLE AC2 on it. His name was a derivative of the phrase "Smoke up d00d!" (to avoid naming and shaming)

The fact that it was Caustic and Skirmish make a difference as well which side the team started on. If his team was the one filled with people that can't shoot without stopping and zooming, there's a good chance they got rolled fairly quickly.

Granted, this is just my observation...most times I get stuck with over 50% "Elite Veterans" (ie: just finished their first 25 matches) on Caustic, there is a lot of just standing around at first....and as soon as the other team realizes we're just standing still, they roll over our faces.

Still...the matchmaker is what it is. I'm not sure who posted it (Russ, Bryan, Paul? Most likely the Vice President in charge of everything beginning with the letter "Q") recently, but it was basically stated that the "new" re-written matchmaker is designed to even out the Elo scores by packing in "Elite Veterans" with the higher Elo players, thus giving you a "carry them" effect. I know it was on the forums somewhere...someone posted a link to it in a thread right after the new mm was implemented.

[Caviel]

The other issue is that your Elo rating is based on your team results, not your personal performance. Getting 500+ damage in a team with mostly 100-200 damage teammates, plus having the only kills on your team and losing the match, you may lose points off your Elo. Carry harder next time, I guess? These matches are not quite as common, usually can't get that high of damage in a snowballing solo queue match before I die unless I'm really playing conservatively. It would be nice if the game factored in your performance vs. team average performance in the Elo adjustments.

I am starting to be convinced that having a high Elo rating in the solo queue just makes your teammates worse. Without knowing my Elo scores and player averages, I have no real way of backing that up though. Sure feels that way sometimes when I see players starting off matches with 3PV on, or multiple teammates that can't hit three digit damage scores. Either that, or my Elo is vastly lower than I presume it is based on getting put in groups with multiple teams (Before the solo/group split queues). Groups likely having a higher Elo on average than solo players back then, I suspect this isn't the case, unless again I'm being used to bring the team average down.

Would any PGI folks actually reading this thread PM me with my weight class Elo percentiles if I promise not to share?

[Lefty Lucy]

Sandpit, on 06 August 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

the thing is, the OP's team had 1 kill and most were hovering at or below 200 damage with only one person doing over 300 damage and that is somehow the game and PGI's "fault"

Clan mechs kill you so fast that even good players will sometimes have <100 damage games against entire teams of clan mechs. Someone has to be first to die, after all.

[Noth]

Lefty Lucy, on 06 August 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Clan mechs kill you so fast that even good players will sometimes have <100 damage games against entire teams of clan mechs. Someone has to be first to die, after all.

What you just said is true of IS mechs as well. IS mechs can kill you so quickly, that even good players would barely put out any damage.

[Willard Phule]

Caviel, on 06 August 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

The other issue is that your Elo rating is based on your team results, not your personal performance. Getting 500+ damage in a team with mostly 100-200 damage teammates, plus having the only kills on your team and losing the match, you may lose points off your Elo. Carry harder next time, I guess? These matches are not quite as common, usually can't get that high of damage in a snowballing solo queue match before I die unless I'm really playing conservatively. It would be nice if the game factored in your performance vs. team average performance in the Elo adjustments.

I am starting to be convinced that having a high Elo rating in the solo queue just makes your teammates worse. Without knowing my Elo scores and player averages, I have no real way of backing that up though. Sure feels that way sometimes when I see players starting off matches with 3PV on, or multiple teammates that can't hit three digit damage scores. Either that, or my Elo is vastly lower than I presume it is based on getting put in groups with multiple teams (Before the solo/group split queues). Groups likely having a higher Elo on average than solo players back then, I suspect this isn't the case, unless again I'm being used to bring the team average down.

Would any PGI folks actually reading this thread PM me with my weight class Elo percentiles if I promise not to share?

That's sort of what I was getting at earlier.

The Elo system hasn't changed. You have a score, let's call it "X." Your score can go up or down by a maximum of 50 points in any given match. The kicker is that it won't change unless you do the opposite of what your team is predicted to do...that's where the matchmaker comes in.

The matchmaker predicts one team to win and one to lose. If you're on the one predicted to win and you win, nothing happens. If you lose, it goes down. Pretty simple, right?

Before the re-write, we had a problem with the whole "1:1 w/l" thing....the matchmaker did it's best to keep you at a 1:1 ratio. Ok, fine. It's arguable...and has been argued until everyone is blue in the face. Regardless, the entire Elo thing is based on prediction. That's fact.

The old matchmaker still predicted win/loss but...it's predictions are a whole lot different than they were before. For one, it allowed groups into what we now call the "solo queue." Group Elos were averaged out...if you've got three high Elo players and one low one, it'll effectively drop the other three by Y points, regardless of the fact that they've got a lot more communication and coordination than the rest of the PUGs.

The "new" matchmaker does the same thing but...it tries to even out the Elos even more aggressively. Let's say it puts 4 guys with relatively high Elos on Team A....it's going to pack the other 8 slots with lower Elos to even them out with Team B. If team B has 12 guys of moderate Elo, then you're looking at Team A having to carry their "Elite Veterans." I know it sounds goofy...and I'm not good at communication...but, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

I know it's meaningless but if you find yourself constantly having to carry a lot of "Elite Veterans" every match in the Solo queue...take it as flattery. It's a ridiculous straw to grasp at, but it's all we've got.

Hey, on the bright side....unit creation isn't going to cost a bajillion cbills and require 100 members to start with. That's something to look forward to, right?

[John McOrigin]

One possible solution to improve the elo usage is to group up similar pilots. Currently the team average, weighted average or sum of elo numbers is compared. That is why everyone still meets full noobs in the matches on both sides, independent of your own elo number.

With more active players to choose from, it could be possible to group teams by their elo number. This does not avoid beginners with unrealistic high elo numbers to pull down the team, but it averages the overall difference.

In the current system, you can't really see an improvement of you elo and your teammates. You might think you have a high elo, have it or not, you will still meet beginners in your team.

An overall win/loss ration of 1 would be fine for everyone I think. And it has to be, to keep the community happy in average. But I would like to play with more experienced players more often - even to improve my own skills in a PUG.

[MischiefSC]

Every single player in this game, every single one, has sub 200 matches. Top players get headshotted or caught out of position and humped.

Not everyone who makes a poor showing was someone in their first 25 matches. Sometimes they have been one of the highest Elos on your team playing a troll build or just having some bad luck that match.

It is a common excuse and misconception that the MM 'sets people up to lose' or 'stacks a match', or even 'always groups a bunch of noobs with anyone who is any good'. Doesn't happen, has never happened. It is however a common humble-brag excuse for why people lose. 'I'm such a rockstar the MM has to put 6 newbies on my team so it's impossible for me to carry everyone'.

Odds are that you are the one being carried. There are likely other people on your team with a higher Elo than you. Also, you (and I say 'you' because this absolutely without question applies to everyone) have games where you play for crap. Get ganked early, get too far ahead and get pounded by 4 people and killed with ~100 damage. The difference is that you make up BS excuses ('The other team was clearly all alts for HoL using evil sync-dropping magic HAXX, it's impossible that 4 different people hit the same side of my torso unless they were super-coordinated cyber-aliens so this loss doesn't count. I would have done great IF...') for why you were not that good that match.

Which, of course, is never applied to the low scores on your team.

The reality is that absolutely nobody here is as good as, deep down, they think they are. Most the people here erroneously blame other people on their team when in reality the other team was flat out better.

You could have two perfectly balanced teams, utterly perfectly balanced in mechs, tonnage, loadout and player skill - and still get total stomps. One person has a bad day or one person has a GOOD day and it's all down hill from there.

The MM is working great (IS vs Clan balancing aside). Just because several people on your team didn't score 500 damage or more doesn't mean they were terribads. Just means they had a bad game or someone else had a better one. It doesn't even indicate their Elo is low - they may have a great Elo but have had a bad game or be leveling a crappy chassis - or just had the bad luck of getting in the wrong crosshairs at the wrong time.

'It's not my fault I lost...'

No, of course not. It never is. You'd win 100% of your matches if you were not hamstrung by a system stacked against you and stupid people holding you back.

Or, you can look at your win/loss, notice it's probably 1.0 or higher and that you're doing alright. When fortune swings your way it's all your amazing hyper-SKILLZ, right? Just when it swings against you it's on purpose. Either the matchmaker is *out to get you* or your team all but TKed you.

Good games and bad games, they come and go. How well you navigate them compared to how well everyone else navigates them is what separates wheat from chaff. When I see threads like this I can't help but imagine all this pissed off chaff, saying 'The wind is too hard! The spout is tipped too steeply! I'm totally wheat but this bit of chaff is stuck to me and dragging me the wrong way! IT'S NOT MY FAULT'

While the wheat is saying 'Sup. Little wind, no worries. FALL HARDER. ******* love some bread and I'm so hard core, I ain't made out of bread... bread is made out of ME.'

[Sandpit]

Mister Blastman, on 06 August 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

I count a minimum of five, possibly eight bads on his team just by looking at the scores. If the matchmaker was working properly, crap like that wouldn't be happening.

uhm
how?

So the MM should only put "bads" on a team with other "bads"?

So you know the OPs Elo score? You know he shouldn't be playing in that Elo bracket? Is the OP a "bad" and jsut got teamed with other "bads"?

[Willard Phule]

Sandpit, on 06 August 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

uhm
how?

So the MM should only put "bads" on a team with other "bads"?

So you know the OPs Elo score? You know he shouldn't be playing in that Elo bracket? Is the OP a "bad" and jsut got teamed with other "bads"?

No, dude, the problem doesn't lie with the MM putting bads with bads and goods with goods.....it lies with PGI's decision to artificially inflate Elo scores after the first 25 matches.

For some reason, they seem to think that if you can stumble your way through the first 25 matches shooting your team in the back, unable to zoom, etc....you should be considered "mid-range."

If they'd just let them start at the bottom and work their way up...even with the HUGE range it's allowed to use to fill teams with....you'd see a LOT less of the stomping going on. We both know this. Call a spade a spade.

I appreciate that they've removed the "Cadets" from the general solo queue...but, man, they have to do something about the ones coming out of the cadet rounds. They're still getting inflated. It's not a gut feeling, I've seen any number of people say they're on their first match with the first mech they purchased. Something's not right here.

The funniest part is that it's not just my elitist attitude powering this...the new players have been complaining left and right about not getting a chance to learn anything because they get rolled in the first two minutes of each match.....granted, that's kind of what PGI is hoping for. Join the game, drop a few bucks, get sick of it and get lost. But tell your friends first, we need to squeeze them for a few bucks, too.

[Noth]

Willard Phule, on 06 August 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

No, dude, the problem doesn't lie with the MM putting bads with bads and goods with goods.....it lies with PGI's decision to artificially inflate Elo scores after the first 25 matches.

Pretty sure they stopped doing that within the last couple of patches.

Edited by Noth, 06 August 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Sandpit]

Willard Phule, on 06 August 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

No, dude, the problem doesn't lie with the MM putting bads with bads and goods with goods.....it lies with PGI's decision to artificially inflate Elo scores after the first 25 matches.

For some reason, they seem to think that if you can stumble your way through the first 25 matches shooting your team in the back, unable to zoom, etc....you should be considered "mid-range."

No, you seem to think that any time anyone corrects you, that they disagree with everything you've said and get hostile.

I've NEVER said 25 matches is enough
I've NEVER said new players shouldn't have the Elos deflated (which I pushed for on twitter AND here)
I've NEVER said new players should mix with vets

I've said the exact opposite for years now. But statements like "new players have their Elos inflated" is just inaccurate. They don't have them inflated. I don't know where you've seen that?
They have their Elos deflated to start, then they go from there. There's no inflation or deflation from that point on that I know of. I've never seen anything indicating that.

To paint someone as "not caring" about NPE and such especially after they've spent hours putting together guides, helping new players in game, helping new recruits in unit, etc. because they don't agree with you is ridiculous.

[Sandpit]

I suggested a long time ago to extend cadets to about 100 matches. If you can't get a grasp of this game within 100 matches (approximately 500 minutes or roughly 8 hours) then you're right where you need to be as far as Elo goes.

I also suggested a Solaris Training queue as well. All new players drop in there for their first 25 matches, they can then opt into the "regular queues" or choose to stay in Solaris for up to 100 matches. They cannot purchase or customize while they're in Solaris but they do accumulate cbills and exp.

Then vet a few veteran players, let them drop as instructors into that queue. They'd be required to play xx matches per week in that queue but they get a free unique camo, forum and game badge, a weekly MC allotment, but earn cbills at a reduced rate to prevent and discourage farming. Between vetting and reduced earnings it should prevent anyone who just wants to stomp newbs from getting in there. Even then, self-police for instructors who aren't actually instructing and helping, but jsut playing for their rewards.

That right there improves the NPE drastically, gives a new player friendly environment to learn the game, and offers live help in the form of instructors to answer questions, give advice, etc.

but that's always fallen on deaf ears