80 replies to this topic

[Torgun]

Davers, on 07 August 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Now, I never really checked these numbers out, but I am guessing bigger is better? So pre-nerf, it had better numbers than every mech but the Awesome's torso twist. But the Victor had JJ that allowed it to torso twist even better than those numbers indicate, right? Not to mention, with a bigger engine it would run rings around the Awesome.

Youre just all wrong. Victors used to twist and turn correctly according to its' weight. A darn big XL made it move like a Heavy but for the cost of weight and of course XL fragility. I wish you'd at least have a decent understanding of the mech before claiming it was correctly nerfed.

As for what happened with all the Victor poptarts? They all drive Timberwolves instead.

Edited by Torgun, 07 August 2014 - 09:58 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

KhanCipher, on 07 August 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Did you even watch the final match of the PGI ran tournament? 15 of 24 mechs that took part were hero mechs (9 Dragon Slayers, and 6 Embers, and here's the results of that match), and you're going to say with a straight face that the Dragon Slayer isn't the best Assault mech, or even the best IS assault?

Yes.... I'll take my Atlas or my Orion, or my Timberwolf, or my Stormcrow, or my Hunchback, or my Dragon, or my Banshee, or my Awesome (well maybe not), or my non-meta victor and rip your meta-victor to shreds....

[Mcgral18]

2 out of 3, close enough.



You can see J-Hunch in the background there, to the left.


Victors are no longer Ballerina's, and will lose an arm before dying (hence why the DS is so popular) but they are still pretty nice mechs that can pack a fair bit of firepower and speed, with half decent hitboxes.


Anywhere that lists torso twist rates? I want to compare my Banshee to it...at 15 tons difference, they seem to handle pretty similar.

[Davers]

Torgun, on 07 August 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Youre just all wrong. Victors used to twist and turn correctly according to its' weight. A darn big XL made it move like a Heavy but for the cost of weight and of course XL fragility. I wish you'd at least have a decent understanding of the mech before claiming it was correctly nerfed.

As for what happened with all the Victor poptarts? They all drive Timberwolves instead.

Those numbers show it was a better mech before adding a big XL engine. And before it was able to do 180 degree turns on a single JJ. I Mastered 3 Victors and I know just how great they were.

[Torgun]

Davers, on 07 August 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Those numbers show it was a better mech before adding a big XL engine. And before it was able to do 180 degree turns on a single JJ. I Mastered 3 Victors and I know just how great they were.

You need to read it again, nowhere does that table show that Victors was twisting and turning better than its' tonnage before nerf.

As for JJ turn, that was working like that for all mechs with JJs and not exclusively for Victors.

Edited by Torgun, 07 August 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[Davers]

Torgun, on 07 August 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

You need to read it again, nowhere does that table show that Victors was twisting and turning better than its' tonnage before nerf.

As for JJ turn, that was working like that for all mechs with JJs and not exclusively for Victors.

All I am seeing is that mechs with JJs have less impressive stats than mechs without JJs. This is a good thing for balance.

[Torgun]

Davers, on 07 August 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

All I am seeing is that mechs with JJs have less impressive stats than mechs without JJs. This is a good thing for balance.

It already was less impressive stats than mechs of the same tonnage before nerf. But really at this point you just don't want to admit you're wrong, so whatever man.

[Graugger]

You don't NEED JJs on a Victor you know >.> if you want to go about it like that then the Victor nerfs should only apply if it has JJs equipped.

[Ultimax]

Davers, on 07 August 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Now, I never really checked these numbers out, but I am guessing bigger is better? So pre-nerf, it had better numbers than every mech but the Awesome's torso twist. But the Victor had JJ that allowed it to torso twist even better than those numbers indicate, right? Not to mention, with a bigger engine it would run rings around the Awesome.

It didn't have natively better numbers than every mech.

Few people ran engines that high (375+), because it compromised your firepower.

325 to 350 was the sweet spot.

So let's aim for 340xl, one of my old builds, and compare it to a Cataphract with a 300xl.

20 x ENGINE / TONS

Old Victor w/ 340
20 x 340 / 80 = 85 degrees per second

Cataphract w/ 300
20 x 300 / 70 = 85 degrees per second


Just for Fun

Awesome w/ 300 = 82 degrees per second

So even if the old Victor took a 340 engine, and the Awesome took a 300, the Victor was only ahead by 3 degrees per second.

Dead even with the Cataphract but using a larger engine to get there, so hardly 'dancing around like mediums'.

Current Victor? You can calculate it as if it were 100 tons.

375 xl = 75 degrees per second
400 xl = 80 degrees per second, still less than the awesome.

A 400xl weighs 8 tons more than even a STD 300.




JJs don't do anything for torso twisting.

In fact JJ jump twisting, was separately nerfed followed by a second Chassis specific nerf.


I'm happy to discuss the validity of nerfs, but the hyperbole about Victors "moving like mediums" is one of those pet peeves that I think really just needs to die.

[TKSax]

I used my 9S and DS the most of all my mechs, they are my most effective Clan Killers, 2ac5 1ppc 2 srm6s on the DS and 1ac20 2srm6's 1 srm4 and 2 ml on the 9s XL's in both and I generally am in the 400 dmg per match range with them in the group que, more in the solo que. I would like to see some of the torso twist speed given back to them, unless you put a large engine in them they seem to be as sluggish as an atlas.

[Mott]

KhanCipher, on 07 August 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Did you even watch the final match of the PGI ran tournament? 15 of 24 mechs that took part were hero mechs (9 Dragon Slayers, and 6 Embers, and here's the results of that match), and you're going to say with a straight face that the Dragon Slayer isn't the best Assault mech, or even the best IS assault?

Teeheehee... you realize that with the many adjustments, nerfs and Clan launch that this is now a completely different game, right?

The results of that tourney, and the mechs used to achieve them, have absolutely no bearing on "modern" MWO.

[Davers]

Ultimatum X, on 07 August 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

It didn't have natively better numbers than every mech.

Few people ran engines that high (375+), because it compromised your firepower.

325 to 350 was the sweet spot.

So let's aim for 340xl, one of my old builds, and compare it to a Cataphract with a 300xl.

20 x ENGINE / TONS

Old Victor w/ 340
20 x 340 / 80 = 85 degrees per second

Cataphract w/ 300
20 x 300 / 70 = 85 degrees per second


Just for Fun

Awesome w/ 300 = 82 degrees per second

So even if the old Victor took a 340 engine, and the Awesome took a 300, the Victor was only ahead by 3 degrees per second.

Dead even with the Cataphract but using a larger engine to get there, so hardly 'dancing around like mediums'.

Current Victor? You can calculate it as if it were 100 tons.

375 xl = 75 degrees per second
400 xl = 80 degrees per second, still less than the awesome.

A 400xl weighs 8 tons more than even a STD 300.




JJs don't do anything for torso twisting.

In fact JJ jump twisting, was separately nerfed followed by a second Chassis specific nerf.


I'm happy to discuss the validity of nerfs, but the hyperbole about Victors "moving like mediums" is one of those pet peeves that I think really just needs to die.

Ok, it didn't run like a medium, but people are mad that it runs like an assault?
Also, the Victor in your example is running about 20kph faster than the Awesome who is running max engine on a very XL unfriendly chassis.
People wanted the maneuverability if the heavy with the armor of an assault. It's not really a sacrifice.

[Angel of Annihilation]

xe N on, on 07 August 2014 - 12:51 AM, said:

It has been said countless times, there are hundreds of threads ...

but still it should not fade into oblivion:

A formerly well designed, low weight assault class was unnecessarily nerfed into extinction.

Almost all low weight light, medium and heavy class battlemechs are currently underrepresented because of several inherent factors.

However, there used to be an exception: the Victor series. While being one of the lightest assaults it was frequently used because of it's agility and speed.

Now the Victors are just a shadow of their former strength. Nobody use a 80 ton battlemech that's agility is equal to a 20 ton heavier Atlas - especially after the recent jump jet nerfs.

Nowadays, Victors are rarely seen on the battlefield. They join the ranks of their fellow sufferers Locust, Cicada, Blackjack, Dragon and Awesome. Diversity got killed ... again.

This need to be undone - not inly for Victors, but for all lightweight!

I agree. The nerf to mobility hurt but they still had better than average jumping capability to make up for it. With the JJ nerf, they just don't have anything special going for them any more. They aren't necessarily bad but they aren't great either and PGI nerfed away most of what made them fun to play.

[Sandpit]

I love hyperbole

Couldn't you have just titled this thread for what it really is?

"JJ nerf sucks" instead of trying to convince everyone it's about Victors? lol
smh

Davers, on 07 August 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

Ok, it didn't run like a medium, but people are mad that it runs like an assault?

pretty much lol

[Mcgral18]

Davers, on 07 August 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

Ok, it didn't run like a medium, but people are mad that it runs like an assault?

We're mad that an 80 tonner performs like a 100 tonner, without the armour or the tonnage.

Oh well, the Banshee can twist better with more firepower and similar speed. If you go for the 400XL.

[Davers]

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

We're mad that an 80 tonner performs like a 100 tonner, without the armour or the tonnage.

Oh well, the Banshee can twist better with more firepower and similar speed. If you go for the 400XL.

Well I am mad that a 80 tonner is as fast as a 45 tonner but with more armor and and tonnage.

#mediummechproblems

[Sandpit]

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

If you go for the 400XL.

That's a mighty big "IF" when it comes to price tag and longevity in a brawling build that dies if it loses either side torso

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 07 August 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

That's a mighty big "IF" when it comes to price tag and longevity in a brawling build that dies if it loses either side torso

WubShee agrees, but it accepts the risks for MOAR WUB.

And internal heatsinks. Those darn Hand and LA actuators get in the way.

Davers, on 07 August 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Well I am mad that a 80 tonner is as fast as a 45 tonner but with more armor and and tonnage.

#mediummechproblems

Let me guess, you're whining about a 75 tonner with an XL375 as well?

[Ultimax]

Davers, on 07 August 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

Ok, it didn't run like a medium, but people are mad that it runs like an assault?

No, mad that it torso twists like a 100 ton mech mech because it is an 80 ton mech.

Davers, on 07 August 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

Also, the Victor in your example is running about 20kph faster than the Awesome who is running max engine on a very XL unfriendly chassis.

That's life with a bigger engine. Unless you think the Awesome is the baseline, and everything needs to hit the level of crappy that it is because the design of the model is so fat.

Davers, on 07 August 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

People wanted the maneuverability if the heavy with the armor of an assault. It's not really a sacrifice.

No, I want it to twist like the 80 ton mech that it is, and not the 100 ton mechthat it is not.

Let me know when that sinks in.

Having good hit boxes doesn't mean you are invincible, it means you can run an XL engine without it being a massive liability.

You can still have your side torsos destroyed, they aren't THAT small.

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

We're mad that an 80 tonner performs like a 100 tonner, without the armour or the tonnage.

Oh well, the Banshee can twist better with more firepower and similar speed. If you go for the 400XL.

QFT.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 August 2014 - 11:50 AM.

[Flagrant]

If only I could exchange my DS for another hero mech..

Still play it but can't play it like before as a brawler.