42 replies to this topic

[Thejuggla]

There's also other bias to take into account. In theory a good player is more likely to spend money than a bad player. Player that is good is more likely to be enjoying the game more than a bad player is, but that's my opinion may be different than actual facts, but would you spend money on some other game you do really well compared to spending it on one you don't do well?

I think the best way to get proper results is to make players select a weight class and one IS and one Clan mech(regardless if you haven't bought a clan mech yet) then random what mech they drop in.

[Mister Blastman]

Clan 'mechs are just as squishy as anything else. Especially Dire Whales. I love shooting at them.

[Mercules]

PGI can look at the data BUT...

Say 10% of clan players are new players who dropped $55 on a mech for a game they have never played. That should be a high estimate I doubt even THAT many exist and happen. So what we have is a faction that is made up of experienced players, nearly all of them are experienced.

If a new player does start they would be using a trial mech. Even 1 in a group of 12 is over 8% of the group. 2 puts us up to 16-17%. As we all know numbers in a match can swing things to one side's favor. Having 1-2 mechs that do "nothing" in a match is enough to seriously skew data results. Chances are there will be a new player ONLY on the one side so yeah the data is skewed.

[Mcgral18]

Hillslam, on 07 August 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

pgi knows more than all of us do. they have the player data, the mech data, the time-in-game data, the paths traveled by the team during the match data, the skill level of the players data, all of it.

We don't.

So please stop posting that the clans only win due to elites skillz their side and bumbling noobs on the other. Its arrogant and condescending.

Its also wrong.

PLENTY of top level players and teams bought clans but also play IS.

Clan mech customers can bleat all they want about what the reason for the stomps are, and throw up as many words as they can to muddy the water, but guess what? IT DOESNT MATTER. PGI is looking at data.

I eagerly await the salty tears with popcorn ready.

So, you're going to ignore the data that IS available because it doesn't suit your needs?

[BigBadVlad]

First, not all long time players bought clan mechs. I AM ONE. No clans, in my mechbay.

Corrupt data? haha... and here I thought you were actually have some technical theory about the test being flawed or something...

There's a number of variables for sure, but no matter what the variables, end result of the test was that IS only teams vs Clan teams were at a significant disadvantage.

Here's where we can only speculate, PGI would have access to all the data and depending on how deeply they look at it will tell. They may share it with us, they may not.

My speculation is, Clan mechs are more durable because they can withstand losing a side torso and still benefit from using an XL engine. IS mechs that use XL to benefit are noticeably more fragile.

Clan mechs are able do a bit more damage at long ranges probably, not huge but a bit.

If you want to balance IS vs Clan then obviously something is needed. Now I don't want to see Clans getting nerfed to all hell, that's not how it was. Clans were OP in the beginning. However, Clans also used the bidding system to defeat IS forces with the smallest force possible. As in a smaller, lighter force than what the IS was fielding.

I would find it interesting to do the next test 12 IS vs 10 Clan and yeah skew the tonnage in favour of IS slightly via matchmaker like someone already suggested. No further nerfing of clan mechs or weapons.

Edited by BigBadVlad, 07 August 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Monkey Lover, on 07 August 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

I don't see how you can get good IS ver Clan data when the IS side is full of new people in trial mechs.

Hows about those Players that are not NEW, and have both Clan and IS Mechs, play both types equally?

Or would that be to much to ask any player? To help their own cause despite what side they may prefer in the end.

[damonwolf]

Quote

Currently though IS players just know they are going to lose. First of all, Lore tells them that Clan mechs are Overpowered so even if they aren't they are. Second, the forums are all claiming Clans are Overpowered so again even if they aren't they are.

Most people don't know the lore. IMO most people that convince themselves they are going to lose to Clan Mechs either heard a friend, teammate, or forum post whine about how OP Clan Mechs are...which they aren't.
Bad, stupid, new, or tactic-challenged players dictate matches more than technology.

[Angel of Annihilation]

BigBadVlad, on 07 August 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

First, not all long time players bought clan mechs. I AM ONE. No clans, in my mechbay.

Corrupt data? haha... and here I thought you were actually have some technical theory about the test being flawed or something...

There's a number of variables for sure, but no matter what the variables, end result of the test was that IS only teams vs Clan teams were at a significant disadvantage.

Here's where we can only speculate, PGI would have access to all the data and depending on how deeply they look at it will tell. They may share it with us, they may not.

My speculation is, Clan mechs are more durable because they can withstand losing a side torso and still benefit from using an XL engine. IS mechs that use XL to benefit are noticeably more fragile.

Clan mechs are able do a bit more damage at long ranges probably, not huge but a bit.

If you want to balance IS vs Clan then obviously something is needed. Now I don't want to see Clans getting nerfed to all hell, that's not how it was. Clans were OP in the beginning. However, Clans also used the bidding system to defeat IS forces with the smallest force possible. As in a smaller, lighter force than what the IS was fielding.

I would find it interesting to do the next test 12 IS vs 10 Clan and yeah skew the tonnage in favour of IS slightly via matchmaker like someone already suggested. No further nerfing of clan mechs or weapons.

Here is the thing. We are talking about the majority of player, not exceptions to the rule. I run my IS mechs alot too, especially my Battlemasters which is making my Timber Wolf look like weaksauce from a stat perspective (one of the reasons I am so adamant about Clan's not being OP because they aren't for me when I play them).

The thing that I and many others are trying to get across is that there are proportionally many more skilled and experienced players playing Clan mech right now that IS mechs. If lets say 70% of Clan pilots have 2000+ matches under their belt vs only 30% of IS pilots having 2000+ matches then the the Clan mechs in general will appear Overpowered just through the skill and experience difference of the players in those mechs. The issue is that they would appear overpowered in this circumstance even if the mechs were 100% perfectly balanced. Hell they might even appear overpowered even if they were slightly underpowered.

Honestly I think the sticking point is that many players, like me aren't experiencing results with their Clan mech that are anywhere near what people are claiming about them. They are good, don't get me wrong but not that good. None of my stats with them a justifying all these cries for nerfs. Zero, Nada, none.

[Mercules]

I did really well in my Kitfox last night and really poorly in my Raven last night. Thing is when I was playing my Raven I was out in front Narcing and Tagging and unfortunately my partner with the LRMs was a bit over the limit for driving. So I was wasting 3 tons on NARC that could have been used on SRMs. I switched to my Kitfox and ran into some REALLY poor players.

As an example; I watched a spider stop directly behind a an Atlas to fire 3 lasers into it. He stood there while I hit him with 2 SRM6s and a ER PPC and I got a second SRM shot off before he tried to move. I would have had another clear shot but that killed him.

That was 1 bad player and I ran into about 10.. I had 11 kills in my Kitfox last night in 4 matches. Only 2 in 3 matches with my Raven. Some would say, "Obviously the Kitfoxes are overpowered." when in reality I would have had the same results killing those mechs in an IS Light.


Actually thinking about it I hopped on my Ember as well last night and killed a Jenner and a Spider in a match because they were dumb enough to follow me back into my group, took hits, and then I was able to follow them and clean them up.

[BigBadVlad]

Yeah there probably is something to the on average most of the time clan only teams will have the more experienced/effective players than the Spheroids. I think most people would agree PGI has had "challenges" balancing teams from an ELO perspective even when we had just IS mechs. I'm not sure attempting to introduce balanced Clan and IS teams via skill (ELO) is going to be feasible. There may just not be enough higher ELO Spheroid players and enough lower ELO Clan players in that case.

But one of the goals was to not obsolete the IS mechs when Clan mechs were released. IF all the games we had today were IS vs Clan then I think it's fair to say IS mechs are mostly obsoleted.

The overpowered results from Clan mechs haven't showed up till now I would be guessing is because the teams were mixed. Mixed teams inherently had more balance due to both sides fielding some Clan mechs. If we did a week long of Clan vs IS in the current game environment I'm pretty sure you'd start seeing the results you are referring to.

That said, I don't know if I will ever spend real money on Clan Mechs. I was just always a Spheroid that felt the Clans were a powerful evil that needed to be beaten back. However, I will move onto a different game if things were to stay the same as they were yesterday. Sure Clan Mechs will be available for C-Bills in a few months, but I don't want to pilot a clan mech. I want to stare them in the face and beat them back (ideally around 50% of the time lets say). That would be balance.

[Scratx]

Hobgoblin I, on 07 August 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Another thread of Clan players begging to avoid any nerfs. PGI is running these match ups to collect data...and you are actually asking them to ignore the data.

No, we're asking them to not ignore the biasing factors that are present in the clan vs IS matchups which are making clans look better than they really are.

Where are the trial mechs? Where are the newbies? What's the distribution of veteran players playing clan mechs and playing inner sphere mechs during the test periods?

A lot of the posters ignore these factors when they come and whine about how ISvClan results in clans stomping IS and thus clans are OP.

I hate those posts because the clans don't need more than some tweaking, not the huge nerfs being called down on them.

[1453 R]

DONTOR, on 07 August 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

This is why 10 VS 12 is going to be awesome, atleast you know you outnumber them, and that will be enough of a morale boost right there.

10v12 is going to be schitte, even if it somehow magically turns out to be the most perfect balancing mechanism ever. Lemme tell you why.

Because even if IS grognards beat a two-down Clan team, they don't get to feel good about it, or feel like they won a proper victory - they just clubbed the other side down with superior numbers. The game no longer lets them earn any sort of real victory. Since the converse is also true - Clan pilots will have a permanent, ready-to-hand justification for every loss they suffer, whether they want one or not - and since it's always far more awesome to be one of the small handful of elites holding off the slobbering hordes, there will be too many Clan pilots, not enough IS pilots, the matchmaker will be distorted beyond salvation, and they'll have to reinstate even 12v12 match-ups again at some point anyways.

But no, don't listen to me. Keep on clamoring for Piranha to Giganerf the Clans the same way they Giganerfed the Victor. And when it turns out they didn't need to do that after all, or that the game's changed since then enough that the Giganerf is unnecessary, you can remember that Piranha NEVER UNDOES A NERF EVER FOR ANY REASON and demanding they ladle nerfs around liberally is among the dumbest things you can do with this company.

Edited by 1453 R, 07 August 2014 - 11:39 AM.

[Hobgoblin I]

Viktor Drake, on 07 August 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

I own 41 mechs, only 6 of them are Clans. I have a Founder's Jenner, the Phoenix Locust, Shadow Hawk, Thunderbolt and Battlemaster pack, a Hero Flame, Ember, Heavy Metal and Dragon Slayer. This makes my total dollar investment for IS mechs much, much higher than for Clan mechs.

With this in mind please tell me what motivation I have to post false information about Clan mechs in order to protect them?

Obviously the answer is none.

However, you are absolutely right, I do want to do anything to avoid PGI OVER NERFING clan mechs based FAULY data because lets face it, PGI is nerf happy and has a very strong reputation of nerfing things not broken.

False information? You don't have any information. You are speculating on the importance of morale and assigning arbritary percentages to its importance. You are completely guessing on the number of "new" players and how it is affects the outcome of the test matches. You claim the data is "faulty" without ever seeing it and you admit you want to avoid "over" nerfing. All signs point to you having a vested interest in clans remaining OP...my guess would be you plan on playing for the clans in CW...but that is just speculation also. If you have no motivation to protect the clans then you seem to have a problem with logic.

[Mcgral18]

Hobgoblin I, on 07 August 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

False information? You don't have any information. You are speculating on the importance of morale and assigning arbritary percentages to its importance. You are completely guessing on the number of "new" players and how it is affects the outcome of the test matches. You claim the data is "faulty" without ever seeing it and you admit you want to avoid "over" nerfing. All signs point to you having a vested interest in clans remaining OP...my guess would be you plan on playing for the clans in CW...but that is just speculation also. If you have no motivation to protect the clans then you seem to have a problem with logic.

52 of 84 allies in my matches failed to get 200 damage.

I feel it's safe to say we had more new players. I'll go calculate how many sub-200 the Clammers had.

They had 26 of 84 players have sub 200 damage. Exactly half as many sub 200 damage players.

Edited by Mcgral18, 07 August 2014 - 11:50 AM.

[Hobgoblin I]

Mcgral18, on 07 August 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

52 of 84 allies in my matches failed to get 200 damage.

I feel it's safe to say we had more new players. I'll go calculate how many sub-200 the Clammers had.

They had 26 of 84 players have sub 200 damage. Exactly half as many sub 200 damage players.

52 of 84 allies were either new players, bad vets, had bad games, or were shreaded by clan mechs before they could do any damage. PGI knows the ELO's, age of accounts, and a statistical percentage of (normalized) bad luck that affects outcomes. I will trust their data more than what you feel is "safe to say". Their implementation however...

[Aresye]

wwiiogre, on 07 August 2014 - 05:28 AM, said:

Clan mechs are overpowered vs IS mechs one for one per tonnage. Clan weapons are better, clan mechs are better. Clan Pilots vs IS pilots there really isn't any difference.

So let's give all the new players who are stuck on the IS side Clan mechs and temporarily lock out all the people who purchased Clan mechs to force them to run IS. Take a guess who's going to win, and then tell me the pilot doesn't matter.

Note: We already did this thing within my own Clan with 12v12 IS vs Clans. Officers in IS mechs, warriors in Clan mechs. Officers won in IS mechs by a wide margin every game, and I can guarantee you every warrior who participated passed their trial of position and is better than your average new player to the game. Much like how most players who own Clan mechs are (for the most part) going to have at least a couple weeks-months more experience with the game than the brand new guys who are stuck in IS trial mechs.

Not saying everything's balanced (far from it), and the Timberwolf definitely needs to be toned down a tad, but the statistics behind these matches are flawed. To act like both sides have equal experience while the IS side has trial mechs in nearly every game is pretty ignorant. Basically equivalent to saying that a 1st world country's military is only effective because of their fancy technology, and completely ignoring the training and discipline that makes them effective in the first place.

[Koniving]

Monkey Lover, on 07 August 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

I don't see how you can get good IS ver Clan data when the IS side is full of new people in trial mechs.

Trial Clan mechs.
Dun dun dun! O_O!

[Hillslam]

there is no data available yet.

only bleating and walls of words.

We'll see.

[Daneel Hazen]

My clan mechs dont feel more powerful and I've used only them since they came out... but even if they're equal or less I'm still going to use them cause piloting IS mechs is unclanlike. Haha. Clan mechs look cooler to me also. I miss a fast light and running around like a falcon out of hell tho

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 07 August 2014 - 03:18 PM.
Language

[Tynan]

As mentioned, we're not going to have good data until everyone, not just those willing to shell out cash, have access to clan mechs, including a few trial mechs. Free players vs. paid players is going to be a skewed population in any game.

Just to see how bad it was, though, I took a break from leveling clan mechs to work on the zero-XP catapults I picked up back when they were on sale. Been averaging a few kills and generally 400-ish damage in a PPC K2. Yeah, Timbies are mean but nothing else feels particularly awful.